Do you think no one asks for Williams anymore?

[Quintus 5,399]

17 minutes ago, publicist said:

 

Yeah, as i said. More 'Book Thiefs'.

 

Yes. Films like this, for example. Earlier you appeared to be alluding a lot to big budget blockbusters and the like. I wasn't really being specific in that way though. I was literally referring to filmmakers as artists and as fans, nothing more. 

 

Quote

The ugly truth is that directors - those that matter, the festival crowd, those that stick, just look at the past 10 year's oscar nominees sans Spielberg - nowadays have different aesthetics, starting with the way they make films, edit films, use music and last but not least in their work relationships. 

 

It isn't an ugly truth it's just the reality of modern Hollywood. I personally wasn't touching on any of that here though. I was simply saying, in answer to this thread's title, that there are bound to be plenty of filmmakers who would absolutely work with John Williams, but the man is no longer available. This is well known in the industry, and not just in cloud based cubby holes like this one. 

[Fancyarcher 350]

15 hours ago, Will said:

 

Wait, is there any evidence for this? Did I miss something? 

 

Someone on IMDb just added his name to IO at one point, because they could. It would have been interesting, but I doubt he was ever really approached. Basically "rumors". 

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

21 hours ago, Bespin said:

John Williams is not old fashioned, he's just too costly.

 

It's called hard to get.

[Bespin 8,480]

2 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

It's called hard to get.

 

Before asking John Williams to score your movie, ask yourself: is my movie good enough?

 

It take self-confidence!

[Balahkay 627]

The filmmakers of Heartbeeps must have had a lot of confidence! 

[Bespin 8,480]

5 minutes ago, someonefun124 said:

The filmmakers of Heartbeeps must have had a lot of confidence! 

 

I'm sure that on paper, this movie looked like a good idea!

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

11 minutes ago, Bespin said:

 

Before asking John Williams to score your movie, ask yourself: is my movie good enough?

 

George Lucas certainly never asked that question.

[Bespin 8,480]

Just now, TheUlyssesian said:

George Lucas certainly never asked that question.

 

George Lucas, we'll put him in another category... ok?

 

[pete 906]

4 hours ago, Fancyarcher said:

 

Someone on IMDb just added his name to IO at one point, because they could. It would have been interesting, but I doubt he was ever really approached. Basically "rumors". 

 

What's IO??

[Will 2,215]

12 hours ago, Jay said:

John Williams was famously asked to score Jack Reacher and turned it down allowing Kraemer to score it, as recounted by Joe himself in some video interview I can't seem to find at the moment

 

 

 

Oh wow. I do love Kraemer's work but man I would have liked to hear JW do it...

 

-----

 

Quintus is right that there is still a lot of big orchestral stuff - but at this point it's really only in big action movies where you can barely hear the music anyway. But as Pub noted, if you look at, say, love stories, you don't get flowing romantic themes anymore, you get slow piano chords. Which are pleasant, but it's certainly a big change. 

[Fancyarcher 350]

3 hours ago, pete said:

 

What's IO??

 

Inside Out. 

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

I'd be far too nervous to ask him to score my film Bloodsucking Chickens from Death Street. Or Christopher Young to, for that matter.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

4 hours ago, Will said:

Quintus is right that there is still a lot of big orchestral stuff - but at this point it's really only in big action movies where you can barely hear the music anyway. But as Pub noted, if you look at, say, love stories, you don't get flowing romantic themes anymore, you get slow piano chords. Which are pleasant, but it's certainly a big change. 

The style of filmmusic has changed a lot nowadays, but it's no comparison to its role and importance in a movie which have completely changed.

[Thor 7,478]

Do you people live in a world where only action Hollywood movies exist?

 

There are plenty of orchestral scores being written in the old-school tradition, but you often have to look outside action movies and Hollywood.

There's a whole WORLD out there, people.

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

It's time for JW to do an European film.

[filmmusic 1,823]

15 hours ago, Quintus said:

 

There's all sorts of films being made which are Williams fare, but he's retired from offers outside of his work for his friends and Star Wars. 

Do you have any example of the last 5 years, of an American drama film (not big blockbuster action/sci-fi) that has a score in Williams' style (meaning the general romantic-post-romantic style) that it's not a minimalistic philip glass type as publicist said earlier?

edit: Hmmm.. maybe some Desplat ones, although I would consider his style as semi-minimalistic.

 

 

35 minutes ago, Thor said:

Do you people live in a world where only action Hollywood movies exist?

 

There are plenty of orchestral scores being written in the old-school tradition, but you often have to look outside action movies and Hollywood.

There's a whole WORLD out there, people.

yes of course. But here we're talking about hollywood films, since these are the ones that Williams would score.

(unless someone from Japan or Europe asked for him)

[Quintus 5,399]

21 minutes ago, filmmusic said:

Do you have any example of the last 5 years, of an American drama film (not big blockbuster action/sci-fi) that has a score in Williams' style

 

That isn't what I meant actually. I was talking aesthetics, themes and tone. Have you never watched a movie and imagined it with a different sounding score? The kind of movies Williams tends to provide the musical soundtrack for haven't suddenly evaporated just because he's no longer on the scene. 

[Richard Penna 3,676]

3 hours ago, Thor said:

Do you people live in a world where only action Hollywood movies exist?

 

There are plenty of orchestral scores being written in the old-school tradition, but you often have to look outside action movies and Hollywood.

There's a whole WORLD out there, people.

 

Oh get off your high horse. There's plenty of orchestral music being written in Hollywood, just seems to depend on the producer/director involved. Not everyone is like Bruckheimer.

[publicist 4,643]

It's the old Thor mantra - i am not the most avid film watcher but  i do not remember many *strong* orchestral scores in the last 12 years, Hollywood or not. The apparatus itself is not exactly a mark of quality or distinction, as there is lots of shitty orchestral music, too.

 

 

[TownerFan 4,983]

I guess JW still receives requests to score films from directors and producers that aren't directly related to Spielberg or Lucasfilm. Perhaps not too many, but I'm sure he still gets several. However, it's all up to him, as he's in the privileged position to pick and choose whatever he feels compelled to do. We might also consider that nowadays he's pretty satisfied with all the opportunities he had over the course of his career and perhaps doesn't feel the urge to push himself into something completely wild and new. He likely feels challenged enough by a new Spielberg film or a new Star Wars episode, so he doesn't have to search elsewhere. I know that many here feels that both Spielberg and Star Wars are too much into his comfort zone, but come on, he's a composer going into his nineties who seem to still enjoy a lot his job. Also, his modus operandi is such that probably he trusts only people he already knows well and let him enough freedom to do his stuff the way he prefers.

[rough cut 1,714]

There’s a lot of big orchestral scores out in the world, as pointed out. Orchestral scores are far from dead. Some are amazing.

 

Regarding JW doing more than Spielberg and Lucas - JW just doesn’t have the time and picks what he wants. I don’t think he’s too expensive for other blockbuster franchises, I just don’t think he’s interested.

[Josh500 1,615]

On 06/02/2018 at 9:50 AM, filmmusic said:

I was just wondering..

Williams' latest (and future) film projects are only Star Warses and Spielberg films.

 

Do you think noone asks for Williams anymore to score their movie, because this type of music he writes is "old fashioned"?

or maybe they have, but he declined?

Are there any reports in interviews etc. of a director that wanted Williams for his/her film but couldn't get him?

 

John Williams picks the projects he's interested in himself. No director on earth says no.

[Thor 7,478]

5 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

 

Oh get off your high horse. There's plenty of orchestral music being written in Hollywood, just seems to depend on the producer/director involved. Not everyone is like Bruckheimer.

 

Oh, I agree with you. Lots of great, orchestral scores in Hollywood too.

 

I'm just fucking sick and tired of all the 'doom and gloom' and the cynics who criticize the state of things, while -- in actuality -- they really have only ONE sound and niche in mind (the RC-inspired action score), and then use that to draw on evaluation on ALL things.

[publicist 4,643]

Lots? List a few...

[Thor 7,478]

Just a few from last year: THE POST, BITTER HARVEST (not Hollywood, but US mainstream), DRAGONHEART: BATTLE FOR THE HEARTFIRE, THE LAST JEDI, DEEP, FERDINAND, THE EMOJI MOVIE, THE ORVILLE (TV), JUSTICE LEAGUE, LBJ.

 

And if we move outside Hollywood, there are a bunch more. Two from Norway alone (and we only produce like 25 movies a year): ASKELADDEN: I DOVREGUBBENS HALL (Ginge Anvik) and ANCHORS UP BOATS TO THE RESCUE (Gaute Storaas).

[publicist 4,643]

Those are fair scores (some not even that), not great ones.

[Thor 7,478]

I think there are some great ones there.

 

But how many would there need to be, in your view, in order to 'qualify'? I mean, even back in the Golden Age (when there was practically nothing but orchestral scores), very few of them were actually great in any given year.

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

5 minutes ago, Thor said:

I think there are some great ones there.

 

But how many would there need to be, in your view, in order to 'qualify'? I mean, even back in the Golden Age (when there was practically nothing but orchestral scores), very few of them were actually great in any given year.

 

Thor, have you seen The 12th Man?

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

Do we need to see the first eleven movies in order to enjoy it?

[Wojo 2,453]

You don't even need to go to Seattle or Texas A&M either! 

[DominicCobb 194]

Scores for smaller drama films tend to be pretty minimalist no matter what, even if they have an orchestra.

[Thor 7,478]

43 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

 

Thor, have you seen The 12th Man?

 

I have, yes. Better than I expected, but by no means a great movie. I talked to Chris Beck about it (and other things) in this episode.

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

I prefer The Third Man.

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

5 minutes ago, Thor said:

 

I have, yes. Better than I expected, but by no means a great movie. I talked to Chris Beck about it (and other things) in this episode.

 

Cheers. I like Beck, so I'm looking forward to hearing the score, and I've also read We Die Alone, and loved Ni Liv (the pinnacle of Norwegian cinema!), so I'm definitely interested in checking this one out.

[publicist 4,643]

8 hours ago, Thor said:

I think there are some great ones there.

 

But how many would there need to be, in your view, in order to 'qualify'? I mean, even back in the Golden Age (when there was practically nothing but orchestral scores), very few of them were actually great in any given year.

 

The main difference is that i view music, its innate qualities, really separate from the movies its attached to (i am not that interested in those). The changing aesthetics and requirements composers have to bring to fulfill those needs lead me to the conclusion that musically, we haven't gained much. I know most scores you list every year - after all, our lists overlap a great deal - but i find the most interesting stuff is either the chamber-sized stuff (i. e. the cerebral Greenwoods) or completely off-base approaches (i. e. The Duke of Burgundy). Most of the rest, that also includes veterans like Williams or JNH, has been at best well-groomed but compromised routine - i am talking past 'Memoirs' or 'Lady in the Water' here, my last count for a really good film music year was 2006 - with occasional highlights like Chris Gordon's 'Mao's Last Dancer' thinly interspersed in-between.

 

Apart from a few beacons like, say, Powell's Bourne scores and two Zimmer's (for Nolan) that took the genre to newer shores. I have not much fondness for the new european breed like Velasquez, Iglesias or Banos. Competent guys, making conventional movie music without much melodic or harmonic distinction (some exceptions exist, like 'Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy', a score i couldn't connect much to, though). 

 

Oscar nominees and winners 2007 - onwards commented*

*IMHO, this is not necessarily a comment on the ability of the composer(s) but a reflection what these scores meant to me over the years. There is no great consistency on part of the newer guys, some of them had a good score and 10 boring ones afterwards. And often they lack a distinctive musical voice - one you actually WANT to hear over the span of multiple projects. often they work in favour of the film (their main job, of course) but that doesn't often translate into what i call great, musically.

 

2007 (80th)
	Atonement	Dario Marianelli good not great (as a whole)
	The Kite Runner	Alberto Iglesias nah
	Michael Clayton	James Newton Howard nah
	Ratatouille	Michael Giacchino surprisingly good
	3:10 to Yuma	Marco Beltrami good not great
2008 (81st)
	Slumdog Millionaire	A. R. Rahman ARR has done much better
	The Curious Case of Benjamin Button	Alexandre Desplat good with a few aspirations to greatness
	Defiance	James Newton Howard nah
	Milk	Danny Elfman nah
	WALL-E	Thomas Newman good
2009 (82nd)
	Up	Michael Giacchino fair
	Avatar	James Horner fair
	Fantastic Mr. Fox	Alexandre Desplat good concept, don't listen much to it
	The Hurt Locker	Marco Beltrami & Buck Sanders nah
	Sherlock Holmes	Hans Zimmer ergh...

 

2010 (83rd)
	The Social Network	Trent Reznor & Atticus Ross distinctive!
	How to Train Your Dragon	John Powell fun!
	Inception	Hans Zimmer distinctive!
	The King's Speech	Alexandre Desplat nah
	127 Hours	A. R. Rahman  nah
2011 (84th)
	The Artist	Ludovic Bource OK, though na
	The Adventures of Tintin	John Williams fair
	Hugo	Howard Shore fair
	Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy	Alberto Iglesias good
	War Horse	John Williams good
2012 (85th)
	Life of Pi	Mychael Danna nah
	Anna Karenina	Dario Marianelli distinctive!
	Argo	Alexandre Desplat nah
	Lincoln	John Williams fair
	Skyfall	Thomas Newman nah
2013 (86th)
	Gravity	Steven Price nah
	The Book Thief	John Williams not even fair, middling
	Her	Will Butler & Owen Pallett nah
	Philomena	Alexandre Desplat ok
	Saving Mr. Banks	Thomas Newman nah
2014 (87th)
	The Grand Budapest Hotel	Alexandre Desplat distinctive!
	The Imitation Game	Alexandre Desplat fair
	Interstellar	Hans Zimmer distinctive!
	Mr. Turner	Gary Yershon nah
	The Theory of Everything	Jóhann Jóhannsson nah
2015 (88th)
	The Hateful Eight	Ennio Morricone distinctive!
	Bridge of Spies	Thomas Newman nah
	Carol	Carter Burwell nah
	Sicario	Jóhann Jóhannsson nah
	Star Wars: The Force Awakens	John Williams fair
2016 (89th) [9]
	La La Land	Justin Hurwitz nah
	Jackie	Mica Levi distinctive!
	Lion	Hauschka & Dustin O'Halloran (?)
	Moonlight	Nicholas Britell nah
	Passengers	Thomas Newman nah
2017 (90th)	Dunkirk	Hans Zimmer nah
	Phantom Thread	Jonny Greenwood distinctive!
	The Shape of Water	Alexandre Desplat fair
	Star Wars: The Last Jedi	John Williams fair
	Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri	Carter Burwell ok

[Thor 7,478]

Well, thanks for your comments. I think, overall, I'm much, much more positive to a great many of these than you are. I consider AVATAR Horner's masterpiece, for example.

 

Also unlike you, perhaps, I always have two thoughts going on at the same time when I evaluate -- the music in context, and the music on album. One can be great, and the other bad.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

23 hours ago, Josh500 said:

 

John Williams picks the projects he's interested in himself. No director on earth says no.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

11 hours ago, Thor said:

Well, thanks for your comments. I think, overall, I'm much, much more positive to a great many of these than you are. I consider AVATAR Horner's masterpiece, for example.

[Quintus 5,399]

On 07/02/2018 at 4:53 PM, Josh500 said:

 

John Williams picks the projects he's interested in himself. No director on earth says no.

 

3 hours ago, TGP said:

 

It read like one of those old Chuck Norris facts. 

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

I reckon Josh500 never mentally matured past something like 12 years and now has to do this silly deification of Spielberg and Williams to turn them into the perfect, infallible father figures.  How his hatred of women (far more insidious and earnest than Drax's schtick) fits into all this is another matter entirely.

[filmmusic 1,823]

37 minutes ago, TGP said:

I reckon Josh500 never mentally matured past something like 12 years and now has to do this silly deification of Spielberg and Williams to turn them into the perfect, infallible father figures.  How his hatred of women (far more insidious and earnest than Drax's schtick) fits into all this is another matter entirely.

At the age of 38 I've come to the conclusion that I disagree with the deification of anyone (even Mozart).

Not to insult anyone here that does it, but at least to me it seems very silly, like those fans I see of a football team cheering at the field.

[publicist 4,643]

21 hours ago, Thor said:

Well, thanks for your comments. I think, overall, I'm much, much more positive to a great many of these than you are. I consider AVATAR Horner's masterpiece, for example.

 

Also unlike you, perhaps, I always have two thoughts going on at the same time when I evaluate -- the music in context, and the music on album. One can be great, and the other bad.

 

Avatar is not even in my JH Top 20 with its empty tribal drum swagger and compromised Cameron-lite themes. I don't mind it much, though. 

 

As for my lacking loyalty to recent film music, the truth is i have moved away from it years before and with lots of interest in all kinds of genres i explore (often much more musically satisfying), i just don't see the obligation to debate with myself the merits of Emoji Movie or The Revenant etc. and so on. This stuff catches my imagination or not on first listening inspection and mostly it does not. Though i see that watching the movies changes perception for many of those i just have not that big interest (read=time) in movies.

[Thor 7,478]

Do you explore film music outside Hollywood much? I mean, you're German, so you should have some 'tuners out' to European film scores, at least?

[publicist 4,643]

Well, i just find not much interest in new film music, regardless of origin. I just do not see the use, there is so much different music out there.

[Quintus 5,399]

9 minutes ago, publicist said:

Well, i just find not much interest in new film music

 

This sounds like me, but then I see your regular Spotify updates here and how active you are in the Last Score thread, which is generally kept alive by new scores these days, and I think blimey, publicist really loves to engage with the modern scoring medium and listens to absolutely tons of scores old and new, compared to me. 

[Thor 7,478]

I can certainly relate to having 'slumps' in one's film music interest or listening habits once in a while (sometimes, weeks go by when I don't listen to film music, just other types of music), but when there's so much great film music being produced out there, in all imagineable styles and forms and genres and shapes -- if one bothers to look and explore -- I see no logical reason to dismiss it out of an attitude that there's "nothing interesting out there".

 

It's like having a cable package with lots of channels, but then complaining that there's nothing interesting on TV when you only have it set on one channel.

[Quintus 5,399]

There's always been interesting stuff out there, but it's just so sparse. Even when I do hear something quite nice, it rarely resonates for anything longer than a passing interest, or a glance. Depth is what is lacking from film music nowadays. That's why the odd Interstellar here and there feels so suddenly arresting and standout. They're like little one offs - when they used to be reassuringly regular and anticipated. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

If your main interest is in orchestral music there's plenty of great so-called classical music, both new and old, to dig into.

[publicist 4,643]

20 minutes ago, Quintus said:

 

This sounds like me, but then I see your regular Spotify updates here and how active you are in the Last Score thread, which is generally kept alive by new scores these days, and I think blimey, publicist really loves to engage with the modern scoring medium and listens to absolutely tons of scores old and new, compared to me. 

 

By the looks of it, yes, but you also note how many of the new releases i  do NOT talk about. I try to concentrate on stuff i really like but also spotlight new and old scores which might get lost in between the many mediocre ones attached to highly visible pics.

[Thor 7,478]

7 minutes ago, Quintus said:

There's always been interesting stuff out there, but it's just so sparse. Even when I do hear something quite nice, it rarely resonates for anything longer than a passing interest, or a glance. Depth is what is lacking from film music nowadays. That's why the odd Interstellar here and there feels so suddenly arresting and standout. They're like little one offs - when they used to be reassuringly regular and anticipated. 

 

When we vote in the IFMCA every year, we are sent a list of 4000 titles to choose from. Among them are TONS of gems, most of them under-the-radar stuff from non-US countries. It's perhaps demanding too much of the consumer to find all these on their own, but it does not negate their existence. Once we've published the winners (the nominations were recently announced), I'll post my own noms in these categories, which -- as always -- are a bit different from the more mainstream selections chosen by the membership at large.

 

It only feels sparse if one has a limited area of exploration, IMO.