Kasey Kockroach 2,343 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 1 hour ago, The Illustrious Jerry said: Mare you talking to me @kaseykockroach?Because I never gave The Post a five. A three point five is my rating. I was referring to Filmtracks, silly. As for you, Uly, one doesn't come to mind at the moment, but it's amusing how many Williams scores get 5 stars, in comparison to how many Goldsmiths get a comparatively dismissive 3 or 4-stars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John 2,032 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 I'd give The Post a solid 3 and 1/2 out of five. It's a fine score, but nothing special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasey Kockroach 2,343 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 I'd give The Force Awakens 3-stars myself (I didn't buy The Last Jedi's OST). One terrific theme for Rey, a fine theme/motif for Kylo Ren...and being so bored by the underscoring in-between that I focused on my delivery work and gradually forgot what I was listening to until one of the two aforementioned themes came up and I realized "Wait a minute, I've been playing music all this time!". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 6 minutes ago, kaseykockroach said: I was referring to Filmtracks, silly. As for you, Uly, one doesn't come to mind at the moment, but it's amusing how many Williams scores get 5 stars, in comparison to how many Goldsmiths get a comparatively dismissive 3 or 4-stars. There is a simply explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasey Kockroach 2,343 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 Filmtracks is very naughty?...or he really, really likes brass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 He likes good music. And yes, brass is the most important!! Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasey Kockroach 2,343 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 But there's always so much brass, it's like he forgets the rest of the orchestra exists! A+ for whenever he uses xylophones though. That's always quite nutritious for the ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 If you don't like brass it is your problem. It doesn't make it bad music. He has decided to create this universe very brassy and that is his choice. I just love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasey Kockroach 2,343 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 Who says I don't like the brass? I'm not dissing the brass! Brass is my gas, so don't sass, you ass! I'll give you no pass! Smeltington 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 Sorry, my bad!! So sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasey Kockroach 2,343 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,233 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 1 hour ago, gkgyver said: How can a dislike in music be "uninformed"? Do I have to read along with the sheet music and count the number of sharps and flats? GTFO Not what I said, is it? Perhaps don't project your insecurities as a shit musician onto the discussion.... Not Mr. Big 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,626 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 Williams is probably unaware these Filmtracks Awards exist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasey Kockroach 2,343 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 Hasn't he run out of space in his trophy room anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewy 2,382 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 19 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said: Thank god Desplat's preposterously overrated The Shape Of Water is not included. Huh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Chewy said: Huh Yes, such an odd comment. The Shape of Water is a brilliant score, one of my favorites from last year. Chewy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miz 139 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 Ahh, Clemensen. If it's not symphonic leitmotif, he's not that interested. Of course he's gushing over John Williams: the composer has written all the archetypal scores which he measures all other scores against, thinking there is an objective way to view these things. I agree with him on many issues, but he practically autistic in his approach and appreciation of film music. (For example, that The Shape of Water has European sensibilities within an American setting is somehow a negative to him, rather than an intentional and elevating aspect of the film/score relationship - especially in a film about outsiders and victims of the American military machine). And he needs to stop conservative criticism of the films themselves, thinly veiled through reporting other people's criticism. Docteur Qui 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryant Burnette 654 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 My assumption is that these "awards" are just pronouncements by a goober with a blog. Not that I'm above that sort of thing; I'm certainly not. But why are we giving this attention as though it's an actual thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brundlefly 2,385 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 11 hours ago, kaseykockroach said: I was referring to Filmtracks, silly. As for you, Uly, one doesn't come to mind at the moment, but it's amusing how many Williams scores get 5 stars, in comparison to how many Goldsmiths get a comparatively dismissive 3 or 4-stars. But at least the Goldsmith ratings make sense in general. His best scores get 4-5 stars, his medoicre scores get 2-3 stars and his boring scores get 1-2 stars. John Williams has great scores with 2 stars and mediocre scores with 5 stars. It seems much more subjective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,033 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Arpy said: Yes, such an odd comment. The Shape of Water is a brilliant score, one of my favorites from last year. The most annoying thing about the score, except that it doesn't go anywhere, is the bad whistling. A 5 minute suite would suffice... TheUlyssesian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rough cut 1,714 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 I also made the mistake at first, thinking this was “bigger” than “just” a website’s top ten list. Still, isn’t Filmtracks one of the biggest sites when it comes to soundtracks? Even if it’s a one-man show, I’m sure it has some resonance - even if it’s only with the readers. And if the publisher influences some/a lot of people to gain interest in JW and unreleased scores such as Basketball, I’m all for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedigoScan 324 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 What a boring list of movie soundtracks (Though at least he identified the best track from TLJ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 2 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said: The most annoying thing about the score, except that it doesn't go anywhere, is the bad whistling. A 5 minute suite would suffice... Doesn't go anywhere? The score develops three or four central themes that intermingle and grow organically as the narrative progresses. From the escape sequence onward, Desplat juggles all of them in interesting variations that are often quite beautiful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jurassic Shark 12,033 Posted March 20, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted March 20, 2018 And still it all sounds the same. Quite an achievement, really. If there was an Oscar for best elevator music, Desplat would have won it. TheUlyssesian, SteveMc and Taikomochi 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo 3,709 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 Isn't Filmtracks just a fansite/blogger type things. Like, this isn't actually a big deal, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,713 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 19 minutes ago, Bilbo said: Isn't Filmtracks just a fansite/blogger type things. Like, this isn't actually a big deal, right? Clemmensen's Filmtracks is one of the oldest film music review sites but in essence yes he is just one person choosing the best of 2017 on his site. But here at JWFan every possible award given to Williams by anyone is welcomed with open arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 4,640 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 3 hours ago, Bryant Burnette said: My assumption is that these "awards" are just pronouncements by a goober with a blog. Not that I'm above that sort of thing; I'm certainly not. But why are we giving this attention as though it's an actual thing? Are any awards fundamentally different? Does a group of people versus one provide the measure of objective quality? And, if there is no objective quality to music/art (as many here maintain), the answer to the first two questions is obvious. And, if there is objective quality (which some here maintain), then awards are largely superfluous, as the music speaks for itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,675 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 16 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said: Which of his 5 star awarded scores do you think NOT deserve 5 stars? The point where he gave Clones 5 stars. I'd give it a generous 3. 5 hours ago, Miz said: Ahh, Clemensen. If it's not symphonic leitmotif, he's not that interested. Yes, Clemmenson has a very clear bias towards symphonic music, and really turns his nose down at anything more experimental. Newman's early 2000s period was particularly badly received, and Clemmenson ignored the fact that many of those films just didn't need orchestral music, and worked with more quirky material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,033 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 Start your own review site then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,675 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 I think it's reasonable to ask a major soundtrack reviewer to treat all types of scores on their own merits, and if you have such disdain for a certain type of score, then... don't review it? The guy who runs MovieMusicUK has none of these issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,033 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 I think there always will be a large component of subjectivity in a music review that's actually trying to say something informative. Clemmensen at least tries to back his views with reasoning, whether you like his views or not. Taikomochi and TheUlyssesian 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Bespin 8,480 Posted March 20, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted March 20, 2018 I'm okay with the idea of giving always all the awards to John Williams. He's the best! Youngsters, shut up and learn, your time will come. Jurassic Shark, Taikomochi and Smeltington 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliburn 72 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 Being one person that runs a site (with help from others), I have stepped away from the award idea and called it my favorites. To me, "awards" sound very formal where a committee of judges decided who is the winner instead of one person. Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,478 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 41 minutes ago, Caliburn said: Being one person that runs a site (with help from others), I have stepped away from the award idea and called it my favorites. To me, "awards" sound very formal where a committee of judges decided who is the winner instead of one person. Same here. I make annual "BEST OF" episodes, but I've always been uncomfortable with using the word 'awards', since it connotes a physical award and a ceremony. This goes for most review sites. None of them are actually awards; they're just 'best of' lists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,033 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 You should make an award - a gold-plated miniature figure of yourself. Holko and Thor 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post TheUlyssesian 2,473 Posted March 20, 2018 Author Popular Post Share Posted March 20, 2018 For CC I will say this - I think he might net-net have written more words, more deeply thought and reasoned analysis for film scores than most people out there. I don't know what his day job is, but his website is a monument to film score music - a very particular genre of music. And for a person just getting into this genre, a random sampling of some of his lengthy reviews will greatly further the appreciation of this particular artform. The way CC discusses themes and identifies, their narrative and development, the story-telling, the instrumentation, the orchestration and the recording, the reverb and album production, the editing for soundtracks and for film purposes - are a treasure trove of knowledge. There are some other websites who might beat him for sheer volume, but for depth of analysis, this one man is hardly beat. He's absolutely an authority and worth listening to, even though he obviously has preferences. Like say the top NYT critics or Cahiers Du Cinema for movies, they have very obvious biases but that doesn't make their work in criticism less potent and vital. It is their breadth of exposure which lends credence to their analysis - making a case for such a thing as informed opinion. After having done this for over 2 decades and for thousands and thousands of soundtracks and scores, I for one think CC has something to say that I am interested to listen to. Taikomochi, Arpy, Not Mr. Big and 2 others 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 Is this... CC hiding among us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc 2,674 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 CCs reviews were one of the two major online resources (besides this forum) that helped me expand my budding awareness, knowledge and love for film scores. I don't always agree with his opinions, but I often do and always find what he has to say to be very interesting. Once and Bespin 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 6 minutes ago, Steve McQueen said: CCs reviews were one of the two major online resources (besides this forum) that helped me expand my budding awareness, knowledge and love for film scores. I don't always agree with his opinions, but I often do and always find what he has to say to be very interesting. Same here... when I first started to expand my JW collection (shortly before I joined this forum).. I started to hunt and discover the scores with 3 or more '*' ratings on filmtracks.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayesian 1,359 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 CC is without question a tremendously deep fount of film score knowledge and insight, and I have learned much from reading him. It doesn't hurt that I share most of his sensibilities on this topic. But I gotta admit I find his narrative style to be a little off-putting. I can't quite explain how, but part of it is his choice of adjectives, which are often... more intense? extreme?... than the situation calls for. His syntax and word choice often make me think of someone overreaching for significance, using overwrought language as a means to get the point across. It's proper English, but a little anachronistic and non-conversational too. Makes me wish sometimes he had an editor. Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 I agree his top cue choice 100%. Not quite as much for the other wins but there really wasn't really any competition this year anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasey Kockroach 2,343 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 7 hours ago, Richard Penna said: The point where he gave Clones 5 stars. I'd give it a generous 3. Yes, Clemmenson has a very clear bias towards symphonic music, and really turns his nose down at anything more experimental. Newman's early 2000s period was particularly badly received, and Clemmenson ignored the fact that many of those films just didn't need orchestral music, and worked with more quirky material. If that's the case, why does he dismiss most of Powell's scores? The odd exception being the HTTYD stuff (which is still better than being indifferent or annoyed at all of them, but it's still strange as many of those scores' merits apply to Powell's other animation works). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,675 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 Which Powell scores has he dismissed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasey Kockroach 2,343 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 Pretty much all of his other animation scores get 3-stars, including Ferdinand, Horton Hears a Who, the Ice Age works, so on. Doesn't really bother me as there are far more significant things in this world to get riled up about (like my damn noisy cat), it just seems a bit inconsistent for him to dismiss symphonic scores just because they're for mostly lame animated movies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUlyssesian 2,473 Posted March 20, 2018 Author Share Posted March 20, 2018 5 minutes ago, kaseykockroach said: If that's the case, why does he dismiss most of Powell's scores? The odd exception being the HTTYD stuff (which is still better than being indifferent or annoyed at all of them, but it's still strange as many of those scores' merits apply to Powell's other animation works). Quality wise HTTYD is so far beyond anything that Powell has ever written that it is kinda outrageous. You have many good to decent scores and have this one towering masterpiece in the midst of it all and nothing prepares you for it. So I think it is the one thing that gets 5 stars and rest all according to his usual standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasey Kockroach 2,343 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 It's subjective in that regard (I'd rank other scores over the HTTYD music as far as Powell favorites go), but I indeed understand the love for it. It's merely that I feel sorry that he can't get more fun out of the other stuff in favor of the far less inventive blockbuster scores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUlyssesian 2,473 Posted March 20, 2018 Author Share Posted March 20, 2018 If I understand CC correctly, I think he admires complexity and ambition in scoring - the denser the tapestry of motifs and themes or the more intricate the orchestration is, he's more appreciative. I think that's a normal trend to expect from someone who's listening to scores day in day out - something truly ambitious would be needed to get your attention. I have become that way in movies - I now find that basic film direction never pleases me anymore. The only direction that gives me satisfaction is something that is very authoritative, very elaborate and very difficult. So it's not a surprise CC favors complexity as accomplishment. So basically Williams' ouevre is a given - I would say largely some of the most complex music written for movies. He loves Shore for that reason too in his middleearth mode and something like HTTYD which is admittedly a more intricate and elaborate score that what you normally hear in animations. Arpy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasey Kockroach 2,343 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 True, I hadn't considered that aspect, that he probably listens to scores every single day...one can only imagine the Link theme haunting his nightmares. I would at least argue (if I was capable of articulating a good debate) that Powell's Dawn of the Dinosaurs is as good as Goldsmith's Baby: Secret of the Lost Legend, and both are better than Giacchino's Jurassic World. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Docteur Qui 1,544 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 I will credit CC with aiding me in my initial foray into film scores. I bought a lot of scores based on his recommendations and for a long while our tastes were largely aligned (or perhaps I payed too close attention to his opinions without realising it). However, in the last ten years or so I've found that he doesn't deliver what I seek in score criticism, and that mostly has to do with how a score works in the film itself. He seems uninterested in other aspects of filmmaking, particularly sound design which has an equally important role as the music. I appreciate that's how he operates, but I just can't agree with him most of the time now. He lacks a nuanced understanding of how many modern scoring techniques work in tandem with other film conventions, and as a result he frequently underrates terrific and influential scores. As a composer, I understand the desire to analyse music through the lens of Western classical tradition (melody, harmony, counterpoint etc), but as a film composer I also see the need to separate a film score from those traditions from time to time. Having said all that, I'm genuinely surprised he rated TLJ so high and gave it all these awards, especially considering how much he trashed on the film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewy 2,382 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 On 20/03/2018 at 11:57 AM, Jurassic Shark said: And still it all sounds the same. Quite an achievement, really. If there was an Oscar for best elevator music, Desplat would have won it. No, no, no, no, no, NO, NO! NO!! Jurassic Shark and Arpy 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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