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Extreme polarisation in modern film reception, aka TLJ didn't suck that badly

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20 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

Outlines are overrated. The true strength of a screenplay is in the details. A lesser screenwriter and director (George Lucas?) could have taken the same basic story beats and make a completely different film out of them, and a profoundly undramatic one, at that.

 

The point I'm making is the overall narrative arc is still GL's. Are you suggesting that the broad strokes of ESB were contrary to what his macro story was?

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I'm saying that outlines leave a lot of room for the screenwriters to do their own thing. You can make two wildly different screenplays out of the same basic story beats.

 

Furthermore, the interaction between Lucas and the screenwriters produced some changes to those initial story beats, as well. Originally, the twist was going to be that Ben killed Luke's father.

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1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

That's not even true within the logic of the sequel trilogy! otherwise we'd have the Empire, under that name, not "The First Order." The text crawl alone says that it has risen from "the ashes of the Empire." JJ Abrams made a parallel to Nazi officials fleeing to South America and earning a foothold therein.

 

If Abrams and Disney could tell this story as a more direct continuation of the conflict of the sextet, I assure you, they would have. But, like me, they understood the end of Return of the Jedi to be a shorthand for the defeat of the Empire, as indeed it should be.

 

Thats why the ST makes no sense. It doesnt add up. The only reason a direct continuation wasnt done was the age of the original cast which should match the years passed since then.

 

RotJ of course only was the beginning of the fall of the Empire not the defeat. As i said the old sextology established that. Only the ST made it all confusing and some tie in products later added stupid explanations making no sense either but at least filling the 30 year gap between RotJ and TFA. 

The end of RotJ is no shorthand for the defeat... why do you and as you claim Abrams and Disney follow the logic of a 5 year old and see one big victory as the defeat of the whole Empire? Dont you see how stupid and wrong that is to say such a thing for a Saga happening in a UNIVERSE of thousands planets which were almost all under control of the Empire!

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You're over-thinking this.

 

Shorthand is par for the course in films of this kind. Because of how wide the Empire is supposed to be spread, you can't really show them being defeated all across the galaxy at the end of the film, so either you have it be narrated, or you imply it through some kind of shorthand; which is to say nothing of the special edition edits which make the intention there all the more obvious. If a book says otherwise, its as much of an afterthought (in regards to Return of the Jedi) as the sequel trilogy is.

 

Even if what you say is true, the way to depict the triumph over the Empire is in one extra film, as an epilogue or denoument of sorts; not a whole trilogy, because the main story, which involves our main cast and uses the wider conflict as a canvas, has concluded.

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15 minutes ago, SF1_freeze said:

some tie in products later added stupid explanations making no sense either

 

Oh, but everything in the old EU was gold-plated and perfectly logical, right?

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I will never understand EU fans who bash the sequel trilogy for supposedly "contradicting" the OT, when the previous post-ROTJ canon is even more guilty of such. Thank God it was scrapped... with the exception of a few of the novels, most read like really poor fan fiction.

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3 hours ago, John said:

I will never understand EU fans who bash the sequel trilogy for supposedly "contradicting" the OT, when the previous post-ROTJ canon is even more guilty of such. Thank God it was scrapped... with the exception of a few of the novels, most read like really poor fan fiction.

 

I started to read the post-RotJ EU before TFA, but I stopped in the middle of the Callista trilogy, where Luke fell in love with the life spirit of a Jedi gal living in a dead ship's computers, then inhibited another Jedi gal's body after she killed herself because her droid lover broke down. Then the two went to Hoth and almost died from a Wampa pack led by the very same Wampa whose arm Luke cut off back in ESB.

 

I'll eventually resume somewhere, I really want to get around to the Yuuzhan Vong war, that sounds interesting, but this was just too much stupid.

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On April 12, 2018 at 1:03 PM, The Illustrious Jerry said:

The thing that made TLJ bad for a lot of people were the people that said it was bad. 

I like movies that are Star Wars because they are Star Wars. Like @Margo Channing said, the problems are visible, but for me I honestly didn't care until people made it feel like I should. 

 

@SF1_freeze you are coming across as one of those people that goes around telling me that the movie was bad and flawed. Personally I go by the story and and also how can my opinion be mistaken? You uphold it with every comment you make.

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I'm no huge fan of TLJ but the negative fan reaction is absolutely overblown and hysterical.  It's not the "worst movie ever", it's not even the worst movie in the franchise (TPM and AOTC.  Not to mention the 2008 Clone Wars film, which is by far the worst theatrically released SW film.  And there's also The Clone Wars TV series/Rebels, which are also much worse than anything in TLJ)

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When you're assesing a film, the opening shot is very important. Besides the "James Bond opening" that films such as these often imply, the rule for a good start to your film is to open with a striking image.

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I really liked the film on my first showing, but I had issues with the pacing, especially the Finn and Rose plot.

 

Oddly, those issues faded into obscurity on my second viewing and I basically found very little to fault the film with. Star Wars is really great in long-form, I reckon. Especially when the second half is just so depressing and ominous, it makes for compelling viewing. It really kicks into gear once Rey and Luke have their confrontation and it never relents from there.

 

Does that mean they couldn't have reworked other elements? Of course not, but it is what it is. I'd be happy for IX to be just as long -- especially if it means Williams writes another 3+ hours of Star Wars music before hanging up the baton!

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I didn't find this film as weighty and "depressing" as you did, mostly due to Johnson's use of humor. Really, the only part of the film that felt impactful to me was when Luke and Leia met, in no small part due to the apperance of the Luke and Leia theme.

 

Moreso than any specific plotline or character, I think my issue with this film can be best described as a lack of restraint on the part of the director: its in his attempt to subvert everything, in the structure of the film, in the runtime, in the number of subplots, etcetra. It just made it a little overwrought in times, and that in turn is what made it feel long on the big-screen.

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9 minutes ago, crumbs said:

I really liked the film on my first showing, but I had issues with the pacing, especially the Finn and Rose plot.

 

Oddly, those issues faded into obscurity on my second viewing and I basically found very little to fault the film with. Star Wars is really great in long-form, I reckon. Especially when the second half is just so depressing and ominous, it makes for compelling viewing.

 

Exactly the same here.

 

I wonder if this shitshow is partly the culmination of the rising "nitpicker culture" I was always afraid of. With many young people watching the Nostalgia Critic, Cinema Sins, Honest Trailers and so on, I wonder how many of them realise what they do is only for humour and entertainment, not legitimate and definitive criticism - a movie having some plotting flaws or shot-to-shot continuity errors doesn't mean it's the worst thing ever and has defiled your great-grandmother's remains.

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Yeah, much of the online film criticism, which people "learn" from, is done by people who have little no formal education in filmmaking or film theory, and as such focuses on little "flaws" that are often negligble in the context of the bigger picture.

 

However, I should say, that's not the case with The Last Jedi. Its director severely lacks restraint throughout. Just as much as the "its the worst thing ever" movement is ridiculous, so too is the "its the best thing since sliced bread" flock.

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It amazes how you guys can dissect and debate this distinctly unremarkable movie for as long as you are doing. It was the same with The Hobbits. We have our own interests and motivations I suppose, but these days I find I'm only interested in discussing movies I really enjoyed; quickly forgetting about the, well, forgettable ones I saw. I have no desire to devote more time and thought to them.

 

This does make me wonder about the culture of the movie "post mortem" effect which forumites the world over inarguably seem to revel and delight in. So is this a relatively new phenomenon, one that came with the advent of the internet? Or has it always been a thing to do... in erm, pubs and... erm movie buff clubs years ago?

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To me, its an intelectual exercise more than anything else. One of many that I enjoy. In a way, the movie itself is immaterial: its the logic that you apply in defending or criticising it that counts.

 

And I did enjoy The Last Jedi, and I enjoyed The Hobbit, and not in an apologetic way, either.

 

I like big, "spectacle" films, and I don't think that those kinds of films - done right - are inferior to any other form of media that we consume. There's a reason the masses flock to them.

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51 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

much of the online film criticism, which people "learn" from, is done by people who have little no formal education in filmmaking or film theory

 

34 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

To me, its an intelectual exercise more than anything else.

 

Yessss, I see.

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34 minutes ago, Quintus said:

It amazes how you guys can dissect and debate this distinctly unremarkable movie for as long as you are doing. It was the same with The Hobbits. We have our own interests and motivations I suppose, but these days I find I'm only interested in discussing movies I really enjoyed; quickly forgetting about the, well, forgettable ones I saw. I have no desire to devote more time and thought to them.

 

 

The older i get, the less interest i have in discussing things i wasn't that interested in.

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1 hour ago, Quintus said:

It amazes how you guys can dissect and debate this distinctly unremarkable movie for as long as you are doing. It was the same with The Hobbits. We have our own interests and motivations I suppose, but these days I find I'm only interested in discussing movies I really enjoyed; quickly forgetting about the, well, forgettable ones I saw. I have no desire to devote more time and thought to them.

 

This does make me wonder about the culture of the movie "post mortem" effect which forumites the world over inarguably seem to revel and delight in. So is this a relatively new phenomenon, one that came with the advent of the internet? Or has it always been a thing to do... in erm, pubs and... erm movie buff clubs years ago?

You've already made the assumption that a majority should share your opinion. The Last Jedi was a film people enjoyed and disliked.

 

The fact we're on a forum dedicated to discussing the scores of John Williams, let alone in the sub-forum for discussing non-Williams material AND discussing a Star Wars film shouldn't surprise you as to why this behavior (of talking about films *you* don't find enjoyable) persists.

 

The topic of this thread I find to be quite relevant and intriguing because it is a strange phenomenon to see how  particularly loud expressions of negative opinions about The Last Jedi have had a profound effect across the internet. 

 

In the case of The Last Jedi it revealed that holding extraordinarily high expectations, long-held fan theories and insurmountable speculation on inane details will result in an unfair and absurd overreaction from fans of all stripes. 

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2 hours ago, Arpy said:

You've already made the assumption that a majority should share your opinion. 

 

Nope. I'm quite aware that this movie has by all accounts divided people pretty much right down the middle (aside from the few of us who think TLJ was "okay" - neither good or bad) . I've seen the unimpressed contingent debate and analyse the movie a fair bit (indeed they continue to so), which is where my curiosity on that matter was piqued - as expanded on in my second paragraph. Please try not extrapolate inaccurate meaning or assumption from my comments, don't put words into my mouth.

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34 minutes ago, Arpy said:

The topic of this thread I find to be quite relevant and intriguing because it is a strange phenomenon to see how  particularly loud expressions of negative opinions about The Last Jedi have had a profound effect across the internet. 

 

In the case of The Last Jedi it revealed that holding extraordinarily high expectations, long-held fan theories and insurmountable speculation on inane details will result in an unfair and absurd overreaction from fans of all stripes. 

 

Indeed, the magnitude of this phenomenon is what most impressed me. It reveals an aspect of the social media that should never be overlooked, especially when dealing with more serious stuff than an entertainment movie. It's a bit worrying that relatively many people can get so extreme (at least, verbally) on things that belong to the world of fiction. If I don't like a movie, I just say that I don't like it (sometimes not even that) and go on with my real life, I don't ask to "remove it from canon", which would destroy the work of many talented people, and start insulting anyone who thinks otherwise! 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Quintus said:

Please try not extrapolate inaccurate meaning or assumption from my comments, don't put words into my mouth.

 

Stefan, is that you?

1 hour ago, Score said:

I don't ask to "remove it from canon", which would destroy the work of many talented people, and start insulting anyone who thinks otherwise!

 

The problem, in a nutshell, is that the internet gave a lot of former isolated and quite frankly more often than not seriously unhinged guys a voice. That's just the new now. :)

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10 minutes ago, publicist said:

The problem, in a nutshell, is that the internet gave a lot of former isolated and quite frankly more often than not seriously unhinged guys a voice. That's just the new now. :)

 

Whackjobs like these people. If there was no internet, they'd be invisible.

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3 hours ago, Nick1066 said:
  1. Debate Star Wars
  2. Debate debating Star Wars
  3. Comment on the debate about debating Star Wars.

 

Joking aside, this was actually my entry point into Drax's thread. I've long found it curious how people will happily (and often nauseatingly) debate and dissect movies (and TV shows for that matter) even after they have claimed not to have enjoyed them. It has become a common behavioural characteristic of all forum discussion, recognisable all over the internet, and I find it interesting. My own theory to describe the phenomenon is something I'll call 'negative celebration', specifically, the internet pastime of talking with others indefinitely about movies we claim to be of poor quality. What do people get out of it? Which is why earlier I pondered whether or not it was a new phenomenon. Did the internet enable and empower these "celebrations" of negative criticism? I think it did. People do revel in the act of slating movies and sneering at those whom might otherwise enjoy them. Furthermore, I wonder about the motivations of people whom participate in these repetitive - sorry, *intellectual* discussions (sorry Chen), I wonder about what makes them tick. Indeed, one could say I'm sometimes more interested in analysing the critical motivations behind the endless ripping of movies these days than I am talking about the movies themselves.

 

Now, Drax's topic was never meant as direct discussion about the TLJ movie itself either (there's already threads for that), but leave it to the fucking nerds to turn it into one anyway, because they just can't help themselves. Predictably, user Arpy didn't have the wit to realise that my original post was a response to Drax's commentary on the extremities of polar opposite views nowadays, given as they are, platforms apposing one another in modern social media. It had nothing to friggin' do with whether or not The Last Jedi is a good movie, or whether or not people agree with my own views about it.

 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Quintus said:

Joking aside, this was actually my entry point into Drax's thread. I've long found it curious how people will happily (and often nauseatingly) debate and dissect movies (and TV shows for that matter) even after they have claimed not to have enjoyed them.[...]My own theory to describe the phenomenon is something I'll call 'negative celebration', specifically, the internet pastime of talking with others indefinitely about movies we claim to be of poor quality. What do people get out of it? Which is why earlier I pondered whether or not it was a new phenomenon. Did the internet enable and empower these "celebrations" of negative criticism? I think it did. People do revel in the act of slating movies and sneering at those whom might otherwise enjoy them. Furthermore, I wonder about the motivations of people whom participate in these repetitive - sorry, *intellectual* discussions (sorry Chen), I wonder about what makes them tick. Indeed, one could say I'm sometimes more interested in analysing the critical motivations behind the endless ripping of movies these days than I am talking about the movies themselves.

 

I think there is some joy to make fun of films that don't work. Its not a new phenomenon by any means: Mystery Science Theater 3000 and Rifftrax made a living from it. Its just more pronounced (and yes, sometimes puzzlingly so) due to the internet. Other than giving people who want to do this a voice and a bigger stage, it also gave them access to "film criticsm for dummies", if you will. They learned words like "pace", "charcter arc" and "exposition" and use them to analyse movies, even though often their understanding of these terms is sometimes superficial, at best. As such, their criticisms may be petty or misplaced, or their praises may be blown out of proportions.

 

But as with any phenomenon, I wouldn't paint it in too broad brush strokes. Some people find it intellectually stimulating to discuss films in a nuanced way, whether they be good films, bad ones or mixed bags. The reason you seem to hear more about bad films is that you can learn much, much more from how a bad movie fails than from how a good movie succeeds. Bad movies are the ultimate film school.

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