What do you think about The Spark from The Last Jedi?

[Jurassic Shark 12,051]

2 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

I think you're forcing your logic onto Williams' thinking.

 

Funny that you're the one to say that.

[Chen G. 3,948]

Me? I've only ever been a proponent of adhering to what we know - or can easily deduce - to be Williams' authorial intent.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,511]

22 hours ago, Sharky said:

(if Luke could kill, he probably will...).

 

 

 

 

#If Luke could kill, 

   He probably will, in

   Games without frontiers

   War without tears#

[Jurassic Shark 12,051]

33 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Me? I've only ever been a proponent of adhering to what we know - or can easily deduce - to be Williams' authorial intent.

 

Call it whatever you like - you're speculating as much as the other guys.

[Chen G. 3,948]

My speculations are far less of a reach than @mrbellamy's, for instance.

 

Incidental material and coincidental "quotes" and near-quotes of material are an inevitability within such a large body of work.

 

It even happens in the Ring cycle.

[Jurassic Shark 12,051]

13 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

My speculations are far less of a reach than @mrbellamy's, for instance.

 

Incidental material and coincidental "quotes" and near-quotes of material are an inevitability within such a large body of work.

 

It even happens in the Ring cycle.

 

I personally think much of what @mrbellamy wrote in his posts made good sense, but that's just my opinion. I just think it's kind of absurd to be overly categorical about such matters. The truth is very likely somewhere in the middle - some of the similarities were intentional, while others were not.

[Bryant Burnette 654]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

Me? I've only ever been a proponent of adhering to what we know - or can easily deduce - to be Williams' authorial intent.

 

Which you have virtually no access to.

[Jurassic Shark 12,051]

For all we know Chen could be JW's butler.

[mrbellamy 6,275]

15 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

My speculations are far less of a reach than @mrbellamy's, for instance.

 

Incidental material and coincidental "quotes" and near-quotes of material are an inevitability within such a large body of work.

 

It even happens in the Ring cycle.

 

Mm. My problem with the way you're approaching this is that I'm not feeling much room for nuance. Hope you'll clarify if I'm misinterpreting but what I'm getting from you is that John Williams either completely 100% intends these references with specific authorial intent or the similarity would never occur to him at all?

 

I think the way people create and remember and think about things is too messy for that and I think these scores end up the way they do for plenty of odd reasons. The TPM thing, I doubt there's anything special behind that but it doesn't mean Williams didn't notice the similarity at some point while he was writing or recording and have a chuckle.

 

And anyway, "The Spark" example is different to me because it carries much more significant dramatic weight and so I think it's completely possible that he gave it more careful consideration than the TPM example. I don't think it's a stretch at all that he might have found it appropriate to hint at the theme without being too overt, just fucking with the intervals and rhythm to craft a new piece because quoting Imperial March verbatim would be distracting. I mean, that fits my perception of John Williams as a tasteful artist concerned with details. I also allowed for the possibility that it was just a nice coincidence and you ignored that.

 

It just seems like you're characterizing Williams as blissfully unaware of anything in these scores that isn't bleeding obvious and literal and I'm saying that when it comes to the guy who is actually writing the music and scrutinizing and living with it for months, I think it's likely that he would catch on to these things eventually and still carry on, because it fits well or doesn't really matter.

[Chen G. 3,948]

10 minutes ago, Bryant Burnette said:

Which you have virtually no access to.

 

Sometimes authorial intent is appearant in the work itself; sometimes it can be deduced through specific pieces (especially concert arrangements, end-credits suites, etcetra) and often we have at least a good idea of his thinking through interviews, liner notes, etc...

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

8 hours ago, Tom said:

It would be a coincidence if it appeared in a non-SW score.  The theme is part of the concert suite for ROTS.  I would even guess the scene was tempted with the damn thing.  Williams did not just stumble into the same 9 nine note melody.  I am not saying he is trying to connect the theme to that moment for narrative reasons, but I guarantee he knew it was his own theme from ROTS when he put it in TLJ. 

 

See this is where I part on the Battle of the Heroes front. Though the notes themselves do resemble that theme (and it's only the first 7 notes that are similar, and they aren't exactly the same even then, the melody is a minor 3rd above that of the first two phrases of BOTH), I can't think of a single cue using that theme that could've been used as a temp track. None of the statements in ROTS sounds even remotely close to what we hear in Escape.

[mrbellamy 6,275]

We don't really know what was going on with that temp. The music editor could have found a few cues that would cover the sequence more or less in full, or he could have gotten creative and cobbled together some crazy remix that sampled dozens of tracks. Maybe the shot of the bombs was just a big choral statement of "Battle of the Heroes" and then it moved onto something else.

 

And I don't know, in a funny way I feel like the fact that it's not exactly the same could even be a sign that he was aware of it. Like he was trying to come up with a tune but it was getting too close to Battle of the Heroes and so he fucked it up a little bit haha. Or maybe he improvises around the old stuff sometimes when he's composing and trying to find some suitably Star Wars-y ideas.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

2 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Call it whatever you like - you're speculating as much as the other guys.

 

Listen to Chen G, my cartilaginous friend.

 

If Williams didn't spell it out with a giant, red highlighter pen, it didn't happen. We know he doesn't do subtlety, unlike Giacchino.  

[Jurassic Shark 12,051]

#commentoftheday

 

@Woj - haven't heard it, or just seeking attention?

[Loert 2,511]

I don't know anything about the film so I can only judge the track based on what I hear. I remember listening to it at the time of release and thinking that the build-up at the end was a real standout moment in the score. That goes along with the fact that the track has an effective structure.

 

The only thing I have difficulty swallowing is the statement of the Force theme from 0:48 which is neither here nor there. It sounds like a typical case of the film upsetting the flow of the soundtrack.

 

Btw, I can't be the only one who hears "God Save the Queen" at the beginning?

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

36 minutes ago, mrbellamy said:

We don't really know what was going on with that temp. The music editor could have found a few cues that would cover the sequence more or less in full, or he could have gotten creative and cobbled together some crazy remix that sampled dozens of tracks. Maybe the shot of the bombs was just a big choral statement of "Battle of the Heroes" and then it moved onto something else.

 

This would be my guess.

 

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,051]

9 minutes ago, Loert said:

Btw, I can't be the only one who hears "God Save the Queen" at the beginning?

 

You're just too English!  But I noticed it too after reading your post. 

 

9 minutes ago, Loert said:

The only thing I have difficulty swallowing is the statement of the Force theme from 0:48 which is neither here nor there. It sounds like a typical case of the film upsetting the flow of the soundtrack.

 

I think the Force theme works great as an intro to the Luke and Leia theme.

 

[mrbellamy 6,275]

1 hour ago, Loert said:

I don't know anything about the film so I can only judge the track based on what I hear. I remember listening to it at the time of release and thinking that the build-up at the end was a real standout moment in the score. That goes along with the fact that the track has an effective structure.

 

The only thing I have difficulty swallowing is the statement of the Force theme from 0:48 which is neither here nor there. It sounds like a typical case of the film upsetting the flow of the soundtrack.

 

 

I sorta get what you mean, its entrance and exit are both pretty abrupt. It's effective in the film but there might have been a more naturally musical solution around there. That's a very quiet, visually-driven moment so doesn't really strike me as the film getting in the music's way.

[Bryant Burnette 654]

3 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

Sometimes authorial intent is appearant in the work itself

 

"Apparent" is a highly subjective word.  You want to pretend you're practicing some sort of science; you're actually just offering up opinions and trying to make it sound as if you're an authority.

3 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

For all we know Chen could be JW's butler.

 

For Johnny's sake, I hope not.

[crumbs 14,306]

36 minutes ago, mrbellamy said:

I sorta get what you mean, its entrance and exit are both pretty abrupt. It's effective in the film but there might have been a more naturally musical solution around there. That's a very quiet, visually-driven moment so doesn't really strike me as the film getting in the music's way.

 

Thematically it's also the most logical theme to use for Luke's introduction there, considering his entire appearance is an illusion of the Force.

[mrbellamy 6,275]

Yeah, the movie definitely has a case of "Force Theme-itis" but on the flipside, it's always kinda hard to argue against most of its uses in the film. It's just the effect gets diluted in the big picture.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

6 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Thematically it's also the most logical theme to use for Luke's introduction there, considering his entire appearance is an illusion of the Force.

 

Exactly, and both the Force Theme and Luke & Leia and feature a rising fourth as their opening gestures, with the E minor of the former moving elegantly into the E major of the latter, further facilitated by the dominant (B) held as a pedal tone.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

The transition between the two, as you say, Sharky, was what really got me on my first listen. I remember thinking, "Aw man, the Force theme agai--whoa, wait a minute wait a minute!" After having been used to John Williams discarding theme after theme in his many sequel scores over the decades, for him to segue from the Force theme to Luke and Leia, a theme that he practically has ignored outside of the occasional concert since its original film...that was a sucker punch of a powerful caliber.

[filmmusic 1,825]

Am I the only one that thinks the last minute or so with that repeating motif, is something eg. Zimmer would write?

It sounds a bit simplistic to me..

[Chen G. 3,948]

4 hours ago, Nick Parker said:

After having been used to John Williams discarding theme after theme in his many sequel scores over the decades, for him to segue from the Force theme to Luke and Leia, a theme that he practically has ignored outside of the occasional concert since its original film...that was a sucker punch of a powerful caliber.

 

Hands down, my personal highlight of the entire score and film.

 

Within such a catalog of themes, there's something to be said for having one memorable, beautiful theme that's used very, very sparingly. It makes its appearances all the more dramatic.

 

In other words, the use of Luke and Leia's theme is the anthithesis of the use of The Force theme! 

 

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,051]

2 hours ago, filmmusic said:

Am I the only one that thinks the last minute or so with that repeating motif, is something eg. Zimmer would write?

It sounds a bit simplistic to me..

 

Yes, you're the only one.

 

It's not as simplistic as it seems - you should get the piano sheet music and study it.

[artguy360 1,843]

Probably the best track on the OST and one of the musical highlights of the entire score. It reminds me a lot of Jedi Steps in terms of how surprising and effective it is. I appreciate JW's mastery in working with old and new music, making both feel completely organic next to each other in the same cue.

 

The Spark and all the uses of Rey's Theme are the main reasons I return to TLJ score.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

4 hours ago, filmmusic said:

Am I the only one that thinks the last minute or so with that repeating motif, is something eg. Zimmer would write?

It sounds a bit simplistic to me..

Yeah, somehow. I still like it very much.

[Loert 2,511]

5 hours ago, filmmusic said:

Am I the only one that thinks the last minute or so with that repeating motif, is something eg. Zimmer would write?

It sounds a bit simplistic to me..

 

There's a lot of stuff going around it which makes it much more interesting than an arpeggio exercise. Williams keeps bringing in new instruments, taking out old ones, making subtle changes to the notes, and so on. And I especially like the buildup in the timpani around 2:51.

[Chen G. 3,948]

Besides, you can do a "simple" musical setpiece.

 

What matters is the score as a whole isn't simplistic.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

Besides, you can do a "simple" musical setpiece.

 

What matters is the score as a whole isn't simplistic.

A fact that many people do not understand.

[rough cut 1,714]

I love the imperial march reference.

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

On 4/22/2018 at 11:25 AM, Stefancos said:

Marian, is that you?

 

On 4/22/2018 at 11:28 AM, Jurassic Shark said:

If you'd heard Bruckner's symphonies you'd realize that the stylistic similarities in the latter half of The Spark are striking. There's more to music than just film music.

 

 

On 4/22/2018 at 11:30 AM, crocodile said:

Can we have a clip from Bruckner?

 

 

Somehow I seem to have missed this thread. But JS is right - in fact it's the only time I've ever heard Williams base anything directly on a Bruckner piece, and so closely too that it cannot really be a coincidence. Curiously he didn't post the Bruckner bit that seems to be the direct origin of The Spark:

 

 

 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,511]

In answer to the thread question: I'm trying not to, kid.

[John 2,032]

One year later and it’s still, imo, one of Williams’ all-time best cues for a Star Wars film. Chills every time. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,051]

7 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

Somehow I seem to have missed this thread. But JS is right - in fact it's the only time I've ever heard Williams base anything directly on a Bruckner piece, and so closely too that it cannot really be a coincidence. Curiously he didn't post the Bruckner bit that seems to be the direct origin of The Spark:

 

 

That's a great symphony, but to me The Spark reminds me more of Bruckner's general style than of any specific work.

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

13 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

That's a great symphony, but to me The Spark reminds me more of Bruckner's general style than of any specific work.

 

The culminating brass triplets at the end of each bar are straight out of the 9th. I've never heard anything so clearly like it before The Spark.

[Jurassic Shark 12,051]

Yeah, but that sounds like a general Brucknerian stylistic trait.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

FYI, Marian seems to hear Bruckner in a lot of scores. Especially Goldsmith's.

 

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,051]

The more, the better!

[Oomoog the Ecstatic 314]

As one of my top 2 composers, I can order Williams' OSTs from favorite to least favorite. TFA and TLJ are in the lower half for sure.

 

The Spark:

For general film music, it's interesting, the composition is complex, but the effect itself is just 'ok'

yet Williams has hands-down written some of the best music ever.

 

For Williams music itself, its not his best

 

Unfortunately I think a lot of fans undervalue the skill of writing great melody and variation and moreso enjoy orchestration and effects. Both are essential, hence why something like this for 2 minutes, may be simpler in arrangement, but is so terrifically-written imo. This is my real point about music. The majority of his new Star Wars stuff, the music to me is predictable in invention. A lot of scoring--yet minimal real effect. Continual listens it never stands out or above anything in particular to me. Part of the appeal for people, I assume, is it's Star Wars, and it's new and clever John Williams arrangements. It's certainly thoughtful music, but not anything I gawk at all over. He's put out some excellent scores this century. I'm just using his old work as comparison to TLJ-- IMO the best theme he's written this century, (and then the one at 2:49 is just as good as Rey's.)

 

Anyway I < 3 Williams but obviously I have different compositional priorities, and won't shy away from them just to appeal to one interpretation.