TLJ Score Wishes

[Balahkay 627]

If you were in Rian Johnson's position, how would you have had Williams score TLJ? 

 

I really wouldn't make too many changes since I find the score extremely satisfying as a whole.  I may have asked for less statements of the Force theme and Leia's theme.  I also would have asked him to create a motif for DJ.  He had enough screen time to warrant one.  Also, maybe a motif for the moments for when Rey and Kylo connect to each other via the Force.  Oh, and an original end credits suite.

[aj_vader 534]

I would have said use a lot less Force Theme, I doubt that was Williams' decision considering how we know he isn't entirely comfortable with quoting himself all the time. 

 

I'd have asked him to write a First Order March and stop using Kylo Ren's Theme every time the First Order show up. I would have also asked him to save using the force theme in it's full statement, until the end with Luke. Also would have been nice to get a little more expansion on the Kylo Ren Motif, not just the obvious Horn line, but the part that builds up towards it. 

 

I'd also ask him to push Disney into releasing every cue from all the films in surround sound on Blu Ray, Isolated Score Versions, CD Versions, LP Versions EVERY VERSION! 

[Jurassic Shark 12,051]

I'd have him develop Poe's theme further.

[Chen G. 3,948]

7 minutes ago, aj_vader said:

I'd have asked him to write a First Order March and stop using Kylo Ren's Theme every time the First Order show up. I would have also asked him to save using the force theme in it's full statement, until the end with Luke. Also would have been nice to get a little more expansion on the Kylo Ren Motif, not just the obvious Horn line, but the part that builds up towards it. 

 

I found that using Kylo Ren's fanfare for the First Order itself (which does have some material attached to it) is apt given that this film will see him overtake it. Indeed, by the end the film the theme is played a bit longer as the stormtroopers march into the Rebel base. But Kylo's "conflicted" motif is very frequent in this score as well - although it stopped representing his conflicted side quite a while back.

 

Maybe he needed a new theme to presage his new position, and thereafter transform into a new march for the First Order?

[Balahkay 627]

14 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

I found that using Kylo Ren's fanfare for the First Order itself (which does have some material attached to it) is apt given that this film will see him overtake it. Indeed, by the end the film the theme is played a bit longer as the stormtroopers march into the Rebel base. But Kylo's "conflicted" motif is very frequent in this score as well - although it stopped representing his conflicted side quite a while back.

 

Maybe he needed a new theme to presage his new position, and thereafter transform into a new march for the First Order?

 

I agree that Kylo's theme was appropriate for the First Order since he is the "face" of the First Order even when Snoke was alive.  An actual theme for the FO would have been too much.  Maybe Williams will write a march of some sort for Episode IX.

[Chen G. 3,948]

There is a recurring little gesture that Frank Lehman classifies as "The First Order" motif, so technically I suppose there is a certain leitmotivic representation of that. Whether or not Williams will reprise it in IX is unknown, although I doubt it.

[Pellaeon 593]

I think the question should be, if John Williams were to ask Rian Johnson to make changes to the movie, what would they be?

[crumbs 14,306]

A bit less Force Theme, something other than Binary Sunset for the climax, a proper end credits suite along the lines of Jedi Steps and Finale, an additional concert suite rather than a combined one for the two primary new themes, and probably more choir for the third act (though I appreciate his restraint here and anything more than they actually used would probably be indulgent). Oh, and I wouldn't have allowed him to pull rank with his music editor and switch out the new Main Title recording for the TFA one without telling me...!

 

Apart from that, not much. The score overall is fantastic, surely one of the most energetic and refined scores Williams has written in a decade. It's revelatory in complete form, especially the relentlessly dramatic final hour. Perhaps an additional recurring motif or two would've been nice, but it's an impressive effort hearing all the various motifs and themes bubbling along so seamlessly with such precision.

 

I don't have any issues with the lack of a full-blown First Order March because it doesn't fit the story being told. Kylo now leads the First Order and I appreciate why Williams approached it the way he did. I'm expecting Ren's theme will receive the development/expansion we've craved in IX, now he's the lead villain. And besides, we got plenty of memorable brass fanfares to represent all the various First Order spaceships/weapons which is cooler than just one new recurring motif (of which the First Order already have, as included in That's Enough! and so forth).

[Balahkay 627]

 

[Chen G. 3,948]

1 hour ago, crumbs said:

an additional concert suite rather than a combined one for the two primary new themes

 

I actually like that the way it is. Something like Luke's Island motif would never have gotten a concert arrangement for its own: its too short a motive for that. By putting those two together, Williams has essentially crafted a distilled form of the score (from a leitmotivic standpoint) in a single piece.

 

1 hour ago, crumbs said:

(of which the First Order already have, as included in That's Enough! and so forth).

 

That's not the one. I believe The First Order motif appears strictly in The Force Awakens. Its this one:

 

 

In The Last Jedi, its really represented by Kylo Ren's fanfare, and various none-recurring or incidental fanfares.

[crumbs 14,306]

Then what does this motif represent? I'm sure it appears elsewhere throughout TFA, whether in the final film or some of the unreleased cues.

 

 

 

 

[mrbellamy 6,275]

I always felt like that was just another aspect of Kylo Ren's theme. The way that Rey's theme also has those related motifs.

[crumbs 14,306]

Interesting, that hadn't occurred to me. Rey essentially has her primary theme and two short related motifs. Ren has two short themes (only a few bars long and rarely extrapolated) plus that related, snaking motif. 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I would've temp-tracked it with Bill Conti's Masters of the Universe score.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

2 hours ago, crumbs said:

Then what does this motif represent? I'm sure it appears elsewhere throughout TFA, whether in the final film or some of the unreleased cues.

 

 

 

 

I interpret that as a sort of 'building rage' motif for Kylo Ren. It nearly always follows on from an act of provocation.

[Ludwig 1,120]

I agree with Mr. Bellamy and Sharky. Lehman's catalogue of Star Wars themes likewise lists that theme as "Kylo Ren C (Menacing)". As a twisted, ominous, basically minor-chord arpeggio, it has more than a hint of resemblance to the tag following Across the Stars that's always sounded like it might be appropriately named "Anakin's Evil":

 

 

[Pellaeon 593]

As presented in the TFA Finale, it is a coherent Kylo Ren Theme, and it just happens to have three contrapuntal phrases (Lehman’s C, B, and A), any of which can obviously be quoted throughout the score to good effect.

[artguy360 1,843]

I wouldn't ask JW to score the film any differently in any significant way. Instead I would make a drastically different film for him to score.

[Chen G. 3,948]

3 hours ago, Pellaeon said:

it is a coherent Kylo Ren Theme, and it just happens to have three contrapuntal phrases (Lehman’s C, B, and A), any of which can obviously be quoted throughout the score to good effect.

 

John Williams has said that he written two themes for Kylo Ren. The third theme is, as you say, just an introduction figure to the second theme, I think. It can be quoted on its own as a shorthand for the whole thing. The same is true of Rey’s theme: it’s a single thematic unit, it just has multiple parts, I say.

 

Its just a different way to look at these things, I suppose. I just like to stick to what Williams said on the subject: Other then Ren’s theme, I’ve never seen him refer to any one of his themes (even outside of Star Wars) as being comprised of multiple motifs.

[artguy360 1,843]

I also took the piece of music in question as an introductory figure for Kylo Ren's theme, kind of like a motivic piece of music grammar like Rey's bells.

[Chen G. 3,948]

More than anything, referring to these pieces as separate leitmotives or not is really a mere preference as to how to organize them.

[Incanus 5,714]

I would have asked Williams to use the Exile/Ahch-To theme as a major new theme for Luke throughout the film not just for the island itself. Extensive development of the theme, less renditions of the Force theme. Combine that with the Jedi Steps material and it would have been fantastic. Plus I think Williams could have worked it into pieces like the Spark and The Last Jedi to tremendous effect.

[crumbs 14,306]

There's definitely a handful too many Force Theme variations in the film, when other themes would've been a welcome change (and fit equally as well).

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

I bet a theme & concert arrangement for the space chase or the Supremacy itself could have worked.  Also a self-contained theme for the Battle of Crait.  

[Chen G. 3,948]

4 hours ago, Not Mr. Big said:

 Also a self-contained theme for the Battle of Crait.  

 

How can it be a theme (in the leitmotivic sense, at least) if its self-contained within one setpiece of the film?

[crumbs 14,306]

It's comprised of several action motifs that are recurring throughout the complete score, with reprisals of several ideas first presented in Escape.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Just now, Chen G. said:

 

How can it be a theme (in the leitmotivic sense) if its self-contained within one setpiece of the film?

A theme in the way the Battle of Geonisis is a self-contained theme.  

[Chen G. 3,948]

Williams has written "musical setpieces" in the past. Whether they're based on ostinati or melody. But, unless they transform into or out of existing themes (which they don't), you can’t really consider them part of the thematic architecture of the piece. They're just vignettes.

[Falstaft 2,132]

A couple thoughts.

 

*That ascending motif ["Kylo Ren (Menacing)" -- or whatever it ought to be called] sustains some interesting and independent developments in TLJ, apart from its linkage with the other two, more obvious motifs for the character. That degree of autonomy and repetition is sufficient for me at least to consider it a bonafide leitmotif, even if it's not a particularly important one. There's also some cool material which seems to share some of the same DNA as the motif, if not exactly replicating it, such as here: 

 

 

*The "Menace" motif shares the same first four pitches as the dinky little "First Order" motif (C-D-F-Eb) that I and a few others have pointed out in TFA--you know, the one whose most memorable statement was during the unused Hux's Speech cue... I'm not prepared to say its a matter of direct derivation or not, but I can't imagine it's a pure accident either:

 

 

*I'm not seeing the issue with identifying themes within musical set-pieces like the Battle of Crait. That one in particular does indeed include a unique, buzzy little motif that recurs here and there, solely within the context that scene (starting at 1:53 of the OST track). Who here is conflating theme and leitmotif? I don't think it's controversial to say things like The Asteroid Field or Mynock Cave or the Forest Battle have a theme (or two or three), quite apart from the issue of whether they're based on leitmotifs.

 

*If we're being totally pedantic about it, the Pursuit/Finn motif *does* occur in TLJ, but in a pretty lazy way. The music when Poe/BB8 blow up the guns on the Dreadnaught is an unaltered reuse of the music in the TFA credits where Poe's theme is overlaid with snippets of the Pursuit/Finn idea...

[Chen G. 3,948]

At the end, it all revolves around issues of terminology and organization, which obviously differs between people. Oh well...

[Pellaeon 593]

13 hours ago, Chen G. said:

John Williams has said that he written two themes for Kylo Ren. The third theme is, as you say, just an introduction figure to the second theme, I think. It can be quoted on its own as a shorthand for the whole thing.

 

Hm, I was listening to the OST today and it seems to me (again, using Lehman nomenclature) B+A are more often quoted together and C on its own, so mightn’t the two themes be B+A and C?

[Chen G. 3,948]

I'm always misremembering which is which, but there's Kylo Ren's fanfare, which is his main theme. And the other theme, which Williams described as "ruminative" (I think) is the one introduced as he's praying to Vader's mask. The arpeggio I would say is but the introduction figure to that theme. If it appears on its own, its as a shorthand to the entire theme.

 

The "conflicted" theme has kind of lost that meaning once Kylo kills Han, and is than used interchangably with the Fanfare, often leading into it. But, per Williams words, I would say it is a separate theme. Although through the first act of The Last Jedi it does represent, if not his conflict, than certainly his angst.

[Taikomochi 1,136]

My biggest wish for TLJ would be that the little melody at the start of "Finale" to be more fleshed out.  I love those 30 seconds and wish that idea was maintained until the credits rolled.  I can almost imagine how the melody would build and build until it leads into the credits.  It could have been another Jedi Steps, but, at only 30 seconds, it doesn't have enough time to leave an impact.

[Arpy 4,145]

Obviously one of my biggest wishes was a new march to identify the First Order, but Kylo Ren's theme kind of assumed that position. 

 

I also hoped for more emphasis on Luke's new theme, perhaps a shared theme for Luke and Rey. I have a feeling that the musical storytelling was guided more by Johnson and his temp score than Williams breaking away from that. 

 

With each listen of TLJ I appreciate it more, come next year I think many of us will look back and see TLJ as a score as brilliant as TFA.

 

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

Well this one is for SW is general. I wish the Battle of the Heroes theme was used consistently for heroic acts. I don't know if the use in Escape was intentional, but it makes sense if it were a consistently used theme for heroic moments, such as it is here with Paige Tico. 

 

 

[crumbs 14,306]

2 hours ago, Arpy said:

With each listen of TLJ I appreciate it more, come next year I think many of us will look back and see TLJ as a score as brilliant as TFA.

 

It's a revelation in complete and chronological form, especially the final hour (from Rey's Journey onwards). That stretch was already excellent in OST+FYC form, but when you fold in all the missing cues (Infiltrating the Supremacy, Ladies Parting, Rey Confronts Snoke, Holdo's Resolve, Rose and Finn Escape, Crash Landing, The Fight Begins) it really underpins the desperation of the Resistance, and Williams' musical vision for the score becomes clear.

 

I'd go as far as say it's the most cohesive, intelligently written and conceived final act of music in any Star Wars film since ROTJ. It's incredibly clever the way he gradually strips away melody over successive cues (note the way his action writing "devolves" across Infiltrating the Supremacy > A New Alliance > Chrome Dome), culminating in the athematic dissonance that begins Crash Landing before the Resistance rallies and melody returns with their triumphant last stand. It's brilliant.

[Arpy 4,145]

Like a majority of Williams' scores, it's a crying shame that C&C's don't come around soon enough. We have to wait at least another two decades for them!

[Chen G. 3,948]

@crumbs that's an interesting take on The Last Jedi, particularly the last act. I have to say, I still prefer Star Wars scores (and in fact film scores in general) to take the thematic/leitmotivic route.

 

As for it being the best third act of the series since Return of the Jedi, I dunno. I really like, musically, the latter half of Revenge of the Sith.

 

4 hours ago, The Illustrious Jerry said:

Well this one is for SW is general. I wish the Battle of the Heroes theme was used consistently for heroic acts. I don't know if the use in Escape was intentional, but it makes sense if it were a consistently used theme for heroic moments, such as it is here with Paige Tico. 

 

But “Battle of the Heroes” is but the name of a theme which is strictly about the duel of Obi Wan and Anakin. That the name mentions Heroes is just a piece of artistic flair. Thematically, its linked to such pieces as Across the Stars and Duel of the Fates to denote the tragedy of the two combatants being forced to fight each other.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

The only thing I wished JW had done was write a theme for the Rey/Kylo scenes, like a twisted or melancholic "seduction" theme. It would double down on the creepy manipulative moves that Kylo tries to pull on Rey, but have enough warmth to highlight the hope she has for his redemption. 

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

I'd beg for a Rey/Finn love theme, but the movie itself ignores that OTP, alas. 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,511]

Part of me really wants to hear LE MACARENA, on the soundtrack.

[King Mark 3,630]

standalone concert version of Rose's theme

[Datameister 2,041]

The biggest thing I wish the score had was a willingness to move past the temp track. It's just so painfully obvious at times. As an offshoot of that, I would've preferred a lot less use of the Force theme, particularly in classic horn solo setting. I mean, it's my favorite theme from the entire saga, but come on...enough is enough. By the time we're treated to the score's two (!) climactic statements of the theme, it's a sense of "here we go again." I was listening to ANH the other day and I was struck by how variegated the statements of the Force theme are. No such luck with TLJ.

[crumbs 14,306]

Yes, parts of TLJ feel influenced by a temp track, but Williams always makes it feel like its own thing unique to the film at hand, even if there are inspirations at play. The exact same argument could be leveled towards the original Star Wars, and the many (obvious) influences from which Williams drew upon. After all, the original film had a temp track of its own -- it just wasn't a temp track of existing Star Wars music.

 

And yet, it's probably one of the best film scores ever written.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

I'm a little confoozled...why is there a thread for TLJ score wishes but not TFA? At least, haven't seen one. 

[Chen G. 3,948]

8 hours ago, crumbs said:

The exact same argument could be leveled towards the original Star Wars, and the many (obvious) influences from which Williams drew upo

 

Yeah, but that film and - by extension - its score, were a homage and a throwback to other films and their scores, so it was in-character, as it were. Not so much here.

 

Also, a lot of the temp-track choices that permeate the film are things are more fresh in our minds that Holst's The Planets would have been to audiences in 1977 (especially considering the trends in film scores at the time), so there's that issue.

[artguy360 1,843]

I wonder if the results are different when a film is temped with classical or other orchestal music vs when it is temped with Williams' own music? It seems TFA and TLJ were temped almost exclusively with JW's own SW music. We also know that as recently as ROTS, GL temped with classical music in many places and musical resemblances carry over into the final score.

[Datameister 2,041]

10 hours ago, crumbs said:

Yes, parts of TLJ feel influenced by a temp track, but Williams always makes it feel like its own thing unique to the film at hand, even if there are inspirations at play. The exact same argument could be leveled towards the original Star Wars, and the many (obvious) influences from which Williams drew upon. After all, the original film had a temp track of its own -- it just wasn't a temp track of existing Star Wars music.

 

And yet, it's probably one of the best film scores ever written.

 

I'd say Williams has generally been a lot better at it than most composers, but I didn't see that with TLJ. The passages I'm talking about have these clunky transitions. ANH has flow to it. With TLJ, you get stuff like...okay, take for example Yoda's theme near the end of his scene. It's so obvious that they found a track called "Yoda's Theme", sandwiched together the beginning and end of the track, called it a temp track, and then had Williams replicate that edit, because that's exactly what we got in the final score - the background string figurations even change halfway through the melody when the switch happens. There's nothing organic about it.

 

It's all a matter of personal taste, of course, and I don't mean to be a grump about it. I do like TLJ's score...it just happens to sit at the bottom of the Star Wars list for me.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

21 hours ago, Datameister said:

The biggest thing I wish the score had was a willingness to move past the temp track. It's just so painfully obvious at times. As an offshoot of that, I would've preferred a lot less use of the Force theme, particularly in classic horn solo setting. I mean, it's my favorite theme from the entire saga, but come on...enough is enough. By the time we're treated to the score's two (!) climactic statements of the theme, it's a sense of "here we go again." I was listening to ANH the other day and I was struck by how variegated the statements of the Force theme are. No such luck with TLJ.

I wonder how differently the score would have turned out with a less Star Wars-heavy temp track.  While I don't blame Johnson for playing it safe, it would have been cool to hear some "out of left field" influences (like Lucas' approach to ROTS and to a lesser extent, AOTC).   

[Chen G. 3,948]

6 hours ago, Not Mr. Big said:

like Lucas' approach to ROTS

 

Now that's an interesting point.

 

Which is better? a deriviative score that sounds deriviative of the composer's previous efforts in the same franchise? or a deriviative score that sounds deriviative of the work that composer's contemporaries?