TLJ Score Wishes

[Datameister 2,034]

16 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

Now that's an interesting point.

 

Which is better? a deriviative score that sounds deriviative of the composer's previous efforts in the same franchise? or a deriviative score that sounds deriviative of the work that composer's contemporaries?

 

I'd rather have the latter, personally. I usually don't respond well to sequel scores that over-reference the preceding chapters. For me, a sequel (or prequel or reboot or whatever) score should establish its own sonic identity. I'm pretty sensitive to rehashes of stuff from previous entries. (The exception being BTTF Part 2...not sure why, but that one doesn't bother me.)

[Arpy 4,145]

Something I was thinking about whilst listening to the score earlier (and something @Chen G. might share) was how much of the thematic material Williams reprises in TLJ, barring perhaps Rey's and Kylo's themes and motifs I wanted to return and how that was handled this time around. There's no question of Williams' ability to incorporate, modulate, manipulate and reconfigure a theme (like the Force theme) but here more than The Force Awakens it felt like there were fewer stronger thematic passages to make it seem like a thread of the larger thematic tapestry and instead a needle drop in a haystack of largely anonymous material. This might have something to do with the tone and pacing of J.J's film where the central themes were also new and fresh and had to move at a faster pace narratively.

 

Maybe this is just a fragment of the whole 'copy and paste concert arrangement' idea, but I definitely felt it was more prevalent in this latest instalment than not, and to what extent that's Williams intention or Johnson's is unclear.

 

Also that more than the overbearing use of the Force Theme, I felt the use of the Rebel Fanfare a bit too 'same-y', essentially just an unaltered blare of energy that doesn't go through many permutations as it does in A New Hope, and perhaps Revenge of the Sith. It reminds me of the similar statements of Indy's theme in Kingdom of the Crystal Skull which when enters the score sounds like a tired phrase and something that is contractually obliged to remind audiences it's Indiana Jones instead of the more nuanced variations I think Williams displayed in the earlier three scores.

[Chen G. 3,942]

Well, The Rebel Fanfare has long ago passed from being the leitmotif of the Rebels to being a generally "triumphant" piece of music that's used in random. It goes as far back as Return of the Jedi.

 

6 hours ago, Datameister said:

I usually don't respond well to sequel scores that over-reference the preceding chapters. For me, a sequel (or prequel or reboot or whatever) score should establish its own sonic identity. I'm pretty sensitive to rehashes of stuff from previous entries.

 

I think if this were Episode IX and the recurring themes would have been within the context of bringing a resolution to Williams' body of work, it would have been easier to digest. But within the context of episode VIII? not so much.

[Balahkay 627]

Even with the direct quotes of concert arrangements, temp track, and Here They Come, I think TLJ still has its own identity.

 

 

[crumbs 14,287]

2 hours ago, someonefun124 said:

Even with the direct quotes of concert arrangements, temp track, and Here They Come, I think TLJ still has its own identity.

 

Agreed, the incessant "character assassination" of TLJ, labelling it as nothing more than a temp-tracked rehash of previous scores, is both ignorant and false. If you bother to open your ears the score is clearly filled with hours of original music that has its own purpose, its own identity, its own intent and tells its own story. For my money it's the most concise writing Williams has had in any Star Wars score since ESB. Almost every other score, regardless of their multitude of unforgettable highlights, simply don't function as a cohesive package (in large part due to middling direction and uneven storytelling).

 

TFA probably comes closest, but with its level of understated restraint? It's too hard to judge Williams' original intent with that score, considering the volume of music we're missing (not to mention that he scored the film non-chronologically, which is highly unorthodox for Williams). Sure, we're missing music from TLJ as well, but probably only 30-40 minutes VS 60-70 with TFA.

[Datameister 2,034]

I overstated things when I implied that it doesn't have its own "sonic identity." The new material is quite good and quite different from what we've heard in other Star Wars scores. But as I said, I'm quite sensitive to material that is rehashed. I think one time I calculated how much of COS was a rehash of the first Potter score and it came out to something like 20%...but subjectively, it feels like a lot more to me.

[crumbs 14,287]

If we're talking note for note rehashes, the Leia and Yoda sections tally a grand total of 67 seconds. Yeah, there's a few Force Theme renditions that are derivative of previous scores, but those would tally only a couple of minutes themselves. Not even close to the volume of rehashed music in COS (especially with the perspective that the complete score is 187 minutes long).

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

If the reused music is what's standing out for the listener, that doesn't bode well for the original material. 

(I haven't heard Last Jedi's score myself, so not saying this is my perspective)

[Faleel 5,326]

Well, something familiar is going to stick out more than something new.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

I don't know, I'd think people walked out of ESB with the Imperial theme stuck in their heads more than any theme carried over from ANH. 

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Hardly anyone would've walked out of TFA humming Rey's Theme though, and most here agree it's the backbone of that score and a tremendous theme to boot. It took me weeks to "unlock" it and just how much of it makes up that score's DNA.

 

As for TLJ, the new thematic material takes a bit of a back seat to some phenomenal variations on Rey's theme, Kylo Ren's themes and the Resistance march IMO. This trilogy is already far more thematically cohesive than the prequel trilogy, and we haven't even got the last instalment yet.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

Fair enough. I do recall Rey's theme getting my attention a bit when I saw TFA in theatres though.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I really only noticed it in her first scene in the desert, and then later on as she flies the Falcon to Luke's Island. I couldn't have hummed it to you though, outside of the "da-dada-daaah" flute motif.

 

I did notice Rose's theme as I watched TLJ, and it pops up quite a bit. It's not really my favourite theme, and nowhere near as good as Rey's theme, but it was quite noticeable and probably more immediately catchy.

[crumbs 14,287]

Had the exact same reaction. I struggled to remember Rey's Theme after TFA but Rose's Theme was very memorable after TLJ. It's probably the more "hummable" of the two, even if Rey's Theme is clearly the better piece. 

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

I wonder what constitutes whether a particular character deserves their own theme...Rose gets a theme, while Finn only gets a motif at best?

[crumbs 14,287]

It's an interesting question Williams has never really addressed. After all, he's only just giving Han a theme now, 40 years after the original trilogy.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

As much as I wish Powell conceived the theme (I'm a little worried Powell's score will largely be ignored in favor of just discussing the Williams contribution), I understand that it makes sense for Williams to do a theme for a character he's worked with for decades. Though for all we know, "Han Solo Theme by John Williams" could just mean he scribbled something on a scrap of toilet paper and tossed it at Powell then called it a day.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

1 hour ago, Docteur Qui said:

I really only noticed it in her first scene in the desert, and then later on as she flies the Falcon to Luke's Island. I couldn't have hummed it to you though, outside of the "da-dada-daaah" flute motif.

 

Funny how "I didn't" can seamlessly morph into "hardly anyone would've."

 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,490]

I'm sure that it's been suggested before, but...I wanted far less music in TLJ, and, certainly, far less repetition. The film barely gets a chance to breathe. The whole sequence where Rey gives Luke his lightsabre, is stop-start score. I ended-up thinking "enough, already". If TFA is a fan-boy film, then TLJ is a fan-boy score. Don't get me wrong: TLJ is a good score...there's just far too much of it.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

My fanboy score would have a LOT more choir and accordions, I don't know what kind of fan you are.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

31 minutes ago, Sharky said:

 

Funny how "I didn't" can seamlessly morph into "hardly anyone would've."

 

 

I was active on this forum when that film was released. I, ya know, read the posts from members admitting as much. 

[artguy360 1,842]

30 minutes ago, Richard said:

I'm sure that it's been suggested before, but...I wanted far less music in TLJ, and, certainly, far less repetition. The film barely gets a chance to breathe. The whole sequence where Rey gives Luke his lightsabre, is stop-start score. I ended-up thinking "enough, already". If TFA is a fan-boy film, then TLJ is a fan-boy score. Don't get me wrong: TLJ is a good score...there's just far too much of it.

I agree. The film is poorly spotted with far too much music. It reminds me of ROTS in this way, where a lot of music felt unnecessary and the film never has a chance to breath. It's strange to me because JW himself is usually keenly aware of the power of silence in a film both to serve the film and enhance when music does come in. I think Rian Johnson just didn't spot the film well.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

So there is such a thing as too much John Williams?

[Holko 9,491]

5 hours ago, Datameister said:

I think one time I calculated how much of COS was a rehash of the first Potter score and it came out to something like 20%...but subjectively, it feels like a lot more to me.

 According to my calculations in this thread, depending on the way you define "rehashed", CoS either has 24.56% or 45.77% of rehashed material.

[ocelot 508]

1 hour ago, kaseykockroach said:

Though for all we know, "Han Solo Theme by John Williams" could just mean he scribbled something on a scrap of toilet paper and tossed it at Powell then called it a day.

Highly doubt that considering he is such a control freak when it comes to his music and his orchestrations and them development not to mention chord progressions. He's had it out with other composers who have messed up with his themes in certain franchises like Jurassic Park and Harry Potter....

[mrbellamy 6,270]

16 minutes ago, kaseykockroach said:

I'm a little worried Powell's score will largely be ignored in favor of just discussing the Williams contribution

 

 

Well, I think at first the new theme and Powell's treatment of it will dominate discussion, especially if Williams did his own concert piece for the OST separate from the score. And everybody will have an opinion on how Powell used the other SW themes. These are JWFan novelties.

 

Even the original material, it'll be impossible not to immediately draw comparisons to Williams and how "Star Warsy" it all is. It's not a normal score but discussions work themselves out. There'll be other stuff to talk about for anybody who listens to the soundtrack more than once and sees the movie.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

3 minutes ago, ocelot said:

Highly doubt that considering he is such a control freak when it comes to his music and his orchestrations and them development not to mention chord progressions. He's had it out with other composers who have messed up with his themes in certain franchises like Jurassic Park and Harry Potter....

Did he challenge Don Davis to a sword duel after JP3? 

[ocelot 508]

Powell is a good ORCHESTRAL composer, so I believe he will hopefully not only deliver a good score but do justice to any existing material he uses.

Just now, kaseykockroach said:

Did he challenge Don Davis to a sword duel after JP3? 

Ha! That was actually one instance where he was extremely upset.....

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

I hope so! I rarely pre-order soundtracks and made an exception for Solo.

 

Do tell on Williams' reaction to JP3, if you'll pardon my naivete. Never heard anything about him seeing the Davis work.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,490]

4 hours ago, kaseykockroach said:

So there is such a thing as too much John Williams?

 

There is such a thing as "too much music". Even a JW score can be ingratiating, sometimes. In the case of TLJ, I just wanted it to stop.

[1977 1,743]

5 hours ago, kaseykockroach said:

Do tell on Williams' reaction to JP3, if you'll pardon my naivete. Never heard anything about him seeing the Davis work.

 

I'd love to hear about HP and JP/// too.

[Balahkay 627]

1 hour ago, JTWfan77 said:

 

I'd love to hear about HP and JP/// too.

 

And RO.  If JPIII got Williams extremely upset, I imagine he was furious after hearing RO.  

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

9 hours ago, artguy360 said:

I agree. The film is poorly spotted with far too much music. It reminds me of ROTS in this way, where a lot of music felt unnecessary and the film never has a chance to breath. It's strange to me because JW himself is usually keenly aware of the power of silence in a film both to serve the film and enhance when music does come in. I think Rian Johnson just didn't spot the film well.

ROTS might be heavily-spotted but I can't think of any particular cues that the film would be better for having dropped. (perhaps the Palpatine/Mace Windu tango but even then I really enjoy that cue in its own way)

[Chen G. 3,942]

The Last Jedi is no more overscored than any Star Wars film since the original and maybe The Force Awakens.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,490]

Agreed.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

9 hours ago, someonefun124 said:

 

And RO.  If JPIII got Williams extremely upset, I imagine he was furious after hearing RO.  

 

Why would he care about a score he had nothing to do with? JPIII used his themes, RPO did not.

[mrbellamy 6,270]

RO = Rogue One, not Ready Player One

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Thanks for the correction. Shouldn't mobile post late at night.

[mrbellamy 6,270]

Sleep well and dream of large women.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

19 hours ago, artguy360 said:

I agree. The film is poorly spotted with far too much music. It reminds me of ROTS in this way, where a lot of music felt unnecessary and the film never has a chance to breath. It's strange to me because JW himself is usually keenly aware of the power of silence in a film both to serve the film and enhance when music does come in. I think Rian Johnson just didn't spot the film well.

 

I disagree. I think Williams's near-walt-to-wall underscore is an essential element in ROTS and TLJ. Both as a means of unifying a disjunct narrative structure, and as a safety net to cover for flat performances from some of the younger actors (Christensen, Portman and Ridley).

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

1 hour ago, mrbellamy said:

Sleep well and dream of large women.

 

Prefer men, but thanks all the same

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

The gays are taking over!

[MikeH 768]

On 5/3/2018 at 12:54 AM, ocelot said:

Highly doubt that considering he is such a control freak when it comes to his music and his orchestrations and them development not to mention chord progressions. He's had it out with other composers who have messed up with his themes in certain franchises like Jurassic Park and Harry Potter....

 

Thank you. Awhile ago when it was suggested that Williams was not happy with Rogue One, some around here vehemently denied that JW would ever say a negative word about someone else’s score that used his themes because he’s “too nice for that.”  

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

I'm not surprised. Didn't a musician who's recorded with him describe Williams as an "iron fist in a velvet glove?"

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

So, is anyone going to spill the beans to how he reacted to JP3's score and such?

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

 

He made a sound that I would not want to hear twice in my life.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

He farted?

[MikeH 768]

4 minutes ago, Sharky said:

I'm not surprised. Didn't a musician who's recorded with him describe Williams as an "iron fist in a velvet glove?"

 

 

[ocelot 508]

4 hours ago, MikeH said:

 

 

Exactly. He's not like some other"unnamed" hack jobs who can't orchestrate or how to actually write for an orchestra or how to write orchestrally to start with. How a base line related to the melody, how a counter melody is placed. How to change chords orchestrally and not in a banal pop way that makes no sense musically at all. I am saddened that people think some other composers are geniuses. It's like how some people think Britney and Kanye are geniuses, lol. WHATEVER!

Williams is one of the only composers left in film who actually knows the orchestra and writes for the orchestra. Or I should say, one of the few BIG composers that are known. I'm sure there are others out there, they just are not known and Hollywood right now does not want that sound or that finesse in scoring.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

2 hours ago, ocelot said:

I am saddened that people think some other composers are geniuses.

 

The NERVE of them! I mean, who do they think they are?

 

To post here, one must renounce ALL other Hollywood composers, for they are talentless, popmusik dilettantes, who aren't beholden to a staid, antiquated, formalist idea of the perfect musikkomposition!

 

Heil Williams!