Star Wars Disenchantment

[Mr. Hooper 1,745]

21 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

Guys, this is a family forum. Take it to Tinder.

All we had planned was submerging Mattris' hand in water while he slept to see what happens.

[Edmilson 7,388]

27 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

 

Guys, this is a family forum. Take it to Grindr.

Fixed 

[bored 306]

2 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

All we had planned was submerging Mattris' hand in water while he slept to see what happens.

 

Ah, I was told something else was happening there...

[greenturnedblue 372]

So, who's going to be the one to roll this thread over to page 200?

[Mattris 416]

18 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

My God, what a boring discussion this has become.

 

Only because you haven't realized the implications of my observations.

 

14 hours ago, Datameister said:

I gotta admit, this is one of Mattris's less entertaining detours. I expect better.

 

Rest assured, Lucasfilm expects better from you and the rest of their audience.

 

I'm not here to entertain you. I post here to demonstrate how much of the Star Wars story remains to be shown, told, and confirmed... elements of the narrative and lore that must be included in the story for it to be complete, much less, 'good'.

 

I also share theories, logical reasoning, and relevant bits from Star Wars volumes not limited to the films. My track record and foundation is solid. (Can't say the same for anyone else here.)

 

9 hours ago, bored said:

Wait, we weren't supposed to do that before...?

 

We've had decades to analyze these films. I'm merely scratching the surface. (Trust me, there's much beneath it.)

 

17 hours ago, Trope said:

Mattris, these kinds of unclear and reactionary responses are becoming old fast. Please at least provide us with your interpretation of events without tossing the ball back in our court.
 

You’ve made your position clear, that most of us don’t understand the films properly and haven’t dedicated sufficient time to the same degree of intensive study and research as you. Now, as a Star Wars fan (at least in my childhood and teenage years), I’m genuinely fascinated to hear what you personally understand about the plot that the rest of us haven’t yet been able to grasp (and particularly on this whole issue of Darth Vader’s plan in TESB). I beg of you, no more obfuscation.

At least try to help us see…

 

For the second act of Empire, the Falcon and her crew eluded Darth Vader and his Imperial underlings, all of whom had proven themselves utterly incompetent to locate and capture a ship without a functioning hyperdrive. Luke went about his Jedi training with Yoda.

 

The plot didn't progress until Vader sunk so low as to hire bounty hunters for the job. "There will be a substantial reward for the one who finds the Millennium Falcon."

 

In short order, Boba Fett was able to accomplish what Darth Vader and the Imperial Fleet could not. "Most impressive."  (There's a good reason for why things transpired this way, but that's a good story... for another time.)

 

In the very next scene, Luke saw a vision of the future through the Force: his friends in pain at a city in the clouds.

 

The next scene shows the Falcon  arriving set at Cloud City. Han, Leia, Chewie, and C-3PO are soon put through the wringer.

 

As I hinted previously, the reason Darth Vader expected Luke at Cloud City is provided in the narrative context. It needn't be limited to TESB alone... or even the entire OT.

Thoughts? Last call...

[Trope 519]

32 minutes ago, Mattris said:

I'm not here to entertain you.

32 minutes ago, Mattris said:

For the second act of Empire, the Falcon and her crew eluded Darth Vader and his Imperial underlings, all of whom had proven themselves utterly incompetent to locate and capture a ship without a functioning hyperdrive. Luke went about his Jedi training with Yoda.

 

The plot didn't progress until Vader sunk so low as to hire bounty hunters for the job. "There will be a substantial reward for the one who finds the Millennium Falcon."

 

In short order, Boba Fett was able to accomplish what Darth Vader and the Imperial Fleet could not. "Most impressive."  (There's a good reason for why things transpired this way, but that's a good story... for another time.)

 

In the very next scene, Luke saw a vision of the future through the Force: his friends in pain at a city in the clouds.

 

The next scene shows the Falcon  arriving set at Cloud City. Han, Leia, Chewie, and C-3PO are soon put through the wringer.

 

As I hinted previously, the reason Darth Vader expected Luke at Cloud City is provided in the narrative context. It needn't be limited to TESB alone... or even the entire OT.

Thoughts? Last call...

My friend, you are simply recounting the sequence of events that took place in the film, without providing any answers to the questions we've asked concerning Darth Vader's ultimate plan. I'm starting to think that you yourself might not be so sure of what actually transpired... At least, you continually (intentionally or unintentionally) fail to express it clearly (i.e. in terms that the average person on the street would understand). 

 

Regardless, I'd like to see your response to my take (based solely on memory, as I haven't watched the film for a few years). My understanding is that Jedi have been shown to experience premonitions of future events through the Force. By this point in the film, Vader knew Luke was his son, that he was strong in the Force (from the end of Episode IV), and even told the Emperor he could be turned into a useful ally (implying that he was strong enough in the Force to be effective on the dark side). Armed with this information, and provided the location of the Millennium Falcon by Boba Fett, Vader and his forces took control of Cloud City and tortured Han and Leia (asking no questions), confident enough that Luke would sense their peril through the Force (regardless of his training with Yoda) in order to draw Luke to their location and Vader would capture him (trapping him in carbonite, which had been successfully tested on Han).

[Gabriel Bezerra 300]

21 hours ago, Mattris said:

No, you have clearly disregarded the film's context. Crucially, you don't seem to have realized that Vader was incompetent throughout the film. (Throughout the entire OT, actually.)

For a second there, I thought you were implying Vader was after Leia, and then you threw this one out of the blue... are you making these as you go along?

 

Every question you asked in relation to this topic was answered in more goodwill than I ever witnessed in this thread... and you return dismissing every single one of them.

[greenturnedblue 372]

9 hours ago, Mattris said:

For the second act of Empire, the Falcon and her crew eluded Darth Vader and his Imperial underlings, all of whom had proven themselves utterly incompetent to locate and capture a ship without a functioning hyperdrive. Luke went about his Jedi training with Yoda.

 

The plot didn't progress until Vader sunk so low as to hire bounty hunters for the job. "There will be a substantial reward for the one who finds the Millennium Falcon."

 

In short order, Boba Fett was able to accomplish what Darth Vader and the Imperial Fleet could not. "Most impressive."  (There's a good reason for why things transpired this way, but that's a good story... for another time.)

 

In the very next scene, Luke saw a vision of the future through the Force: his friends in pain at a city in the clouds.

 

The next scene shows the Falcon  arriving set at Cloud City. Han, Leia, Chewie, and C-3PO are soon put through the wringer.

 

I also have seen The Empire Strikes Back 😁

[Nick1Ø66 4,688]

On 18/2/2024 at 8:12 AM, A. A. Ron said:

My God, what a boring discussion this has become.

 

Perhaps we need a disenchantment thread about disenchantment with the Star Wars Disenchantment thread. A thread that realizes @John's original vision.  

 

"Star Wars Disenchantment: The Special Edition". 

[A. A. Ron 1,738]

A sort of Mattris Disenchantment thread, if you will.

[Mr. Hooper 1,745]

1 hour ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

 

Perhaps we need a disenchantment thread about disenchantment with the Star Wars Disenchantment thread. A thread that realizes @John's original vision.

I've thought about it. A thread where we can be disenchanted freely, and without criticism.

 

1 hour ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

"Star Wars Disenchantment: The Special Edition". 

Perfect. 😄

[Jay 37,285]

I feel bad because it wasn't @John that came up with this thread title or had any sort of intention to make a thread like this.

 

This right here is the original first post of this thread created by @Nick Parker ... later on after it had been going a bit, I moved 6 1/2 pages of posts from another SW thread into this one to keep that thread more on its topic.  Maybe in retrospect that shouldn't have happened.

[A. A. Ron 1,738]

To be fair, how could any of us have predicted the madness that would be unleashed in here?

[Mr. Hooper 1,745]

25 minutes ago, A. A. Ron said:

To be fair, how could any of us have predicted the madness that would be unleashed in here?

[Edmilson 7,388]

So the biggest legacy of the Solo movie (besides the great Powell score) is this thread huh

[A. A. Ron 1,738]

Kinda morbid when you think about it.

[Nick1Ø66 4,688]

23 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

To be fair, how could any of us have predicted the madness that would be unleashed in here?

 

[Mattris 416]

On 19/02/2024 at 6:06 AM, Gabriel Bezerra said:

Every question you asked in relation to this topic was answered in more goodwill than I ever witnessed in this thread... and you return dismissing every single one of them.

 

Not true. Most do not answer my questions with goodwill, and most don't answer at all, except with dismissive/sarcastic/snide comments.

 

My intention was seeing if anyone could offer clarification and explanations for what happened in these movies and the overall Star Wars story. It's rare that anyone but me offers more than would a child.

 

On 19/02/2024 at 1:08 PM, greenturnedblue said:

I also have seen The Empire Strikes Back 😁

 

There's a difference between 'seeing' and understanding.

 

On 19/02/2024 at 4:14 AM, Trope said:

My friend, you are simply recounting the sequence of events that took place in the film, without providing any answers to the questions we've asked concerning Darth Vader's ultimate plan. I'm starting to think that you yourself might not be so sure of what actually transpired... At least, you continually (intentionally or unintentionally) fail to express it clearly (i.e. in terms that the average person on the street would understand). 

 

Regardless, I'd like to see your response to my take (based solely on memory, as I haven't watched the film for a few years). My understanding is that Jedi have been shown to experience premonitions of future events through the Force. By this point in the film, Vader knew Luke was his son, that he was strong in the Force (from the end of Episode IV), and even told the Emperor he could be turned into a useful ally (implying that he was strong enough in the Force to be effective on the dark side). Armed with this information, and provided the location of the Millennium Falcon by Boba Fett, Vader and his forces took control of Cloud City and tortured Han and Leia (asking no questions), confident enough that Luke would sense their peril through the Force (regardless of his training with Yoda) in order to draw Luke to their location and Vader would capture him (trapping him in carbonite, which had been successfully tested on Han).

Your summary and explanation of Vader's plan is the first to note that "Jedi have been shown to experience premonitions of future events through the Force". This was made clear in the prequels and subsequent Star Wars volumes, content which shows that premonitions and visions can also be experienced by people (or non-humans) who are not Jedi. Since the Force works through all things - each of which can be affected uniquely - it would be short-sighted to consider 'receiving Force visions' as a personal ability.

 

In context with what happened to Anakin Skywalker previous in the story, Darth Vader expected  Luke Skywalker to sense the peril of his family/friends through the Force because that was his personal experience. Anakin's premonitions of future events - notably, the suffering of his mother and death of his wife - actually happened.

 

As per Vader's plan, all that was required was a timeline in which he would be able to capture and torture Han, Leia, and Chewie. Curiously, he couldn't manage it alone. (The Force was clearly not with him.) Not even a sector of fully-staffed Imperial Star Destroyers helped him. It eventually took bounty hunters. One came through in short order.

 

Once Vader knew where the Falcon was headed, the Force took care of the rest.

[Nick1Ø66 4,688]

On 19/2/2024 at 1:01 PM, A. A. Ron said:

A sort of Mattris Disenchantment thread, if you will.

 

On 19/2/2024 at 1:28 PM, Mr. Hooper said:

I've thought about it. A thread where we can be disenchanted freely, and without criticism.

 

[Datameister 2,037]

2 hours ago, Mattris said:

Your summary and explanation of Vader's plan is the first to note that "Jedi have been shown to experience premonitions of future events through the Force". This was made clear in the prequels and subsequent Star Wars volumes …

 

Just to make sure I'm tracking … you're suggesting that this isn't made clear by Yoda in that very scene?

 

"Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future, the past. Old friends long gone. … It is the future you see."

[Edmilson 7,388]

On 19/02/2024 at 4:18 PM, Nick1Ø66 said:

 

Perhaps we need a disenchantment thread about disenchantment with the Star Wars Disenchantment thread. A thread that realizes @John's original vision.  

 

"Star Wars Disenchantment: The Special Edition". 

I prefer a thread where people can be disenchanted about JWFan, specifically the fact that, with so much more interesting subjects that we could be talking about, this tired thread keeps concentrating much of the discussion here in the forum.

 

The "I enter JWFan and the only new posts are on Star Wars Disenchantment" disenchantment thread

[A. A. Ron 1,738]

You mean like a “Disenchantment is better than everything” thread?

[Edmilson 7,388]

42 minutes ago, A. A. Ron said:

You mean like a “Disenchantment is better than everything” thread?

More like Star Wars Disenchantment thread is worse than everything

[Datameister 2,037]

If Zekeckis ever sells BTTF to Disney, we could make a Disenchantment Under the Sea Thread...

 

EDIT: Well that's just too funny a misspelling to correct.

[bored 306]

What if this thread is as good as it gets? What if it's all downhill from here?

[Mattris 416]

3 hours ago, Datameister said:

Just to make sure I'm tracking … you're suggesting that this isn't made clear by Yoda in that very scene?

 

"Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future, the past. Old friends long gone. … It is the future you see."

 

Logically, Yoda wasn't surprised that Luke had experienced the 'Force vision' because he had also experienced them. Subsequent Star Wars volumes confirmed this to be true. The canon also reveals that visions and premonitions were common among the Jedi of the Old Republic but became almost nonexistent by the time of the Saga. Based on the first six Saga films, it was implied this was the case. (Only Anakin and Luke were shown to have experienced them.)

 

Generally speaking, very little about the Force was understood by the Jedi or anyone; beings simply took advantage of what it could offer. Some were more responsible and selfless than others. It hasn't been confirmed why the Force does what it does... but I expect it will be. 

[Datameister 2,037]

@Mattris Copy that. Looking forward to that midi-chlorian trilogy bringing us to your plane of enlightenment, God whilling.

[greenturnedblue 372]

How do we know Kit Fisto, Yaddle, or Saesee Tinn didn't have force visions? They aren't the main characters, maybe they just had them off screen.

 

Also, it is explain during the Siege of Mangalore that Maul had a vision where the name of Darth Sidious' new apprentice came to him... Skywalker. 

 

Come to think of it, whenever a character mentions having "sensed" something, that is not much different than a premonition 

[Schilkeman 955]

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

Logically, Yoda wasn't surprised that Luke had experienced the 'Force vision' because he had also experienced them. Subsequent Star Wars volumes confirmed this to be true. The canon also reveals that visions and premonitions were common among the Jedi of the Old Republic but became almost nonexistent by the time of the Saga. Based on the first six Saga films, it was implied this was the case. (Only Anakin and Luke were shown to have experienced them.)

 

Generally speaking, very little about the Force was understood by the Jedi or anyone; beings simply took advantage of what it could offer. Some were more responsible and selfless than others. It hasn't been confirmed why the Force does what it does... but I expect it will be. 

 

L aecmgue GsarIo

 

"I am George Lucas"

 

My God!

[JTN 2,002]

Reading through the last few days of this thread have made me become disenchanted with Star Wars. 
 

 

5 hours ago, Datameister said:

Zekeckis

🧐😄

 

Btw only Zekeckis would sell it, Zemeckis never will.

🤞🏻
 

 

 

25 minutes ago, Schilkeman said:

L aecmgue GsarIo

 

"I am George Lucas"

Isn’t “Mattris is sponsored by Disney” in it? 

 

 

[Datameister 2,037]

Zekeckis is an akazing kan, omay? Don't kame fun.

[Gabriel Bezerra 300]

7 hours ago, Mattris said:

(Only Anakin and Luke were shown to have experienced them.)

Yoda had one in the Clone Wars, Ezra and Kanan had it in Rebels...

 

15 hours ago, Mattris said:

As per Vader's plan, all that was required was a timeline in which he would be able to capture and torture Han, Leia, and Chewie. Curiously, he couldn't manage it alone. (The Force was clearly not with him.) Not even a sector of fully-staffed Imperial Star Destroyers helped him. It eventually took bounty hunters. One came through in short order.

You went from "That wasn't actually Vader's plan" to "Vader and the Empire are incompetent" to now saying that "that was Vader's plan, but he only managed to do it 'cause Force"

[Datameister 2,037]

Just now, Gabriel Bezerra said:

You went from "That wasn't actually Vader's plan" to "Vader and the Empire are incompetent" to now saying that "that was Vader's plan, but he only managed to do it 'cause Force"

 

No, he's saying it was the Force's plan. It wanted Vader to catch Luke. In the fourth trilogy, the Force itself will be revealed as the true villain behind everything bad that's ever happened in SW. The peoples of the galaxy will have to rise up and go to war with their own midi-chlorians. (That end battle was sure tricky to shoot, back in 2018.)

[Gabriel Bezerra 300]

1 hour ago, Datameister said:

the Force itself will be revealed as the true villain behind everything bad that's ever happened in SW.

Hey, i've heard this one, it's a classic! Pretty sure if I enter the nearest church I'll hear it again.

 

Though, making the Force align itself with what the Sith wanted goes against some fundamentals, but what do I know, I wasn't enlightened yet.

[bored 306]

4 hours ago, Datameister said:

No, he's saying it was the Force's plan. It wanted Vader to catch Luke. In the fourth trilogy, the Force itself will be revealed as the true villain behind everything bad that's ever happened in SW.

 

I sense something... A presence I've not felt since 2004...

[Mattris 416]

19 hours ago, Gabriel Bezerra said:

Yoda had one in the Clone Wars, Ezra and Kanan had it in Rebels...

 

Other characters experienced visions and premonitions throughout the SW canon. As I noted, I was referring to only to the first six Saga films.

 

19 hours ago, Gabriel Bezerra said:

You went from "That wasn't actually Vader's plan" to "Vader and the Empire are incompetent" to now saying that "that was Vader's plan, but he only managed to do it 'cause Force"

 

No, I asked 'what was Vader's plan' and 'how exactly did things align for Vader'.

 

19 hours ago, Datameister said:

No, he's saying it was the Force's plan. It wanted Vader to catch Luke.

 

No, I'm saying it was Vader's plan but the Force didn't help him directly. It eventually assisted Vader indirectly, but that was only due to Boba Fett's critical contribution.

 

I also wouldn't say 'the Force wanted Vader to catch Luke'. It just gave Luke a heads-up of what would happen to his friends, had he tried to help them or not.

 

19 hours ago, Datameister said:

In the fourth trilogy, the Force itself will be revealed as the true villain behind everything bad that's ever happened in SW. The peoples of the galaxy will have to rise up and go to war with their own midi-chlorians. (That end battle was sure tricky to shoot, back in 2018.)

 

I don't think the Force is villainous, but it does have a will. I expect peoples' midi-chlorians alone will not facilitate long-term success or victory.

 

18 hours ago, Gabriel Bezerra said:

Hey, i've heard this one, it's a classic! Pretty sure if I enter the nearest church I'll hear it again.

 

Though, making the Force align itself with what the Sith wanted goes against some fundamentals, but what do I know, I wasn't enlightened yet.

 

What fundamentals would those be?