Star Wars Disenchantment

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I find Rey the most interesting character of the franchise.

[SteveMc 2,674]

4 minutes ago, Docteur Qui said:

 

I actually said she wasn't particularly interesting, however Ridley's portrayal of her is. I don't disagree that characters in general should be held to a higher standard, but some consistency should be observed, especially if you're unfavourably comparing elements that have been present in the series since day one.

Quite true.

What frustrates me is that Rey has the potential to be unquestionably the most interesting character in the franchise.  As it is, I think Ridley does a quite good job with what she is given. 

[Arpy 4,145]

Rey's character is defined by her innocence and her determination, much like Luke, she's thrust into a galactic war with the information that she has the force and is on a journey to discover who she is and help save her friends. Where her character becomes more interesting than Luke is that she's given no answers, just more questions, there's no Obi-Wan or Yoda to guide her (just a dejected Luke in TLJ), she turns to Kylo Ren instead for her answers - even believing she can save him from his journey to the Dark Side. 

 

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

The most interesting character is Zam the assassin. She's also a strong female.

[Arpy 4,145]

Well, the cue of the same name is pretty interesting too.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

The most interesting character is Chewie's nurse in TFA.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I so shipped those two.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

And of course, she never shows up again. Because Star Wars is scared of being fun. 

[John 2,032]

Fun fact, the actress who plays her is the niece of Christopher Lee.

[Loert 2,511]

On 09/06/2018 at 10:42 AM, TGP said:

I'm not really a Friends fan but I wondered if you guys would check out my latest composition in the spirit of Steve Reich's early tape pieces, which I call "How You Doin."  This seems like a good place for it.  Please enjoy.

 

http://picosong.com/wcEhT/

 

Consider adding some panning effects.

Other than that I enjoyed it...for that kind of style.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

5 hours ago, Margo Channing said:

The most interesting character is Zam the assassin. She's also a strong female.

 

I think he's a she. And I think she's a changeling.

[Pellaeon 593]

The most interesting character is

 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Ewan's uncle?

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

The most interesting character of the franchise is Mattris.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

The next villain?

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

I'M the villain of this picture! I tie girls to railroad tracks.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Kinky!

[Mattris 416]

On 09/06/2018 at 4:03 AM, Arpy said:

Let's start with that those of us who did like the film were because we genuinely enjoyed the film, exploring the characters that were introduced in the last film and the half a dozen before. That the film had great production value, cinematography, music and some great character moments from the screenplay to Johnson's vision.

 

And no, I don't think anyone can safely say that more people than not were disappointed or hated The Last Jedi, but it is safe to say that the people who vehemently hated it are a vocal majority.

 

That's not really high praise, but of course, you are free to 'like' the film.

 

Many seem to want to deny that The Last Jedi  was an audience failure. Whether they liked it or not, most people will choose inaction over complaining online. This includes avoiding future Star Wars films (Solo) until change is perceived. Star Wars fans are passionate and want to support the franchise... but not as it is currently.

 

I estimate that every "vocal" person represents a thousand others. While I can't accurately calculate the ratio of people that liked/disliked the movie, the people who disliked are a vocal majority and a financial majority.

 

On 09/06/2018 at 4:38 AM, Holko said:

The visuals are pleasing, the score is great. I think the writing is quite tight, at this point there's not much you could snip without seriously harming what Rian tried to say with the film. The characters have clear goals and arcs, I like where he's taken them - yes, even Luke, I think he's wonderful. The first watch was a bit bumpy, not knowing where it all was going, and it seemed a bit long (here we have a climax but I still remember Crait from the trailers/so Canto Bight was pointless?), so I wasn't sure how much I liked it, but on the second watch (this is the first movie I saw two times at the cinema) somehow they all evened out into a coherent whole and I enjoyed it much more.

 

What Rian Johnson said - with the film and on Twitter - has seriously harmed Star Wars. I wholeheartedly disagree that "the characters have clear goals and arcs". I will explain my position later.

 

On 09/06/2018 at 5:20 AM, Chen G. said:

I like the film, but not all that much, though: I've watched it three times (I always watch a film twice to really form an opinion on it) but I've had no desire to revisit it since. Whether that says something to the quality of the film itself or the fact that I'm getting fed up with new Star Wars films in general, I don't know.

 

Externally, its a competent movie: for the most part, it was well-acted, well-photographed, had good effects, etcetra. I particularly like a lot of the transitions. Its a usual Johnson device: Finn asks where is Rey, cut to...Rey. And again from Kylo's smashed helmet to Rey telling Luke that "there's no light left in Kylo Ren." After Rey pleads her case to Luke, we cut to Leia, implying that she sensed it all, etc...

 

I don't get what's there to be surprised about regarding Luke's story. It was easy to guess, based on The Force Awakens alone, that he would be shown as disillusioned with the Jedi and would be initially unwilling to train Rey, only to through her rediscover his vitality. What I did appreciate was how things turned out between him and young Ben Solo - perhaps the boldest move in this film. I also love the moment between Luke and Leia. Its wonderfully touching, complete with their theme and everything.

 

There is of course plently I didn't like - none of it has anything to do with SJWs or what they did with the world of Star Wars, but has everything to do with storytelling: some bad comedy, some rough edges (production-wise), a total failure of a subplot in Finn and Rose's story, and two climaxes that can't help but feel like too much for one film. I do think that people who defend this film against the likes of you have left this film's shortcomings (of which there are many) by the wayside, much as you left its positive aspects to the side.

 

Good post. Though the SJW element in TLJ  is quite real and intentional. The characters of Rose and Holdo absolutely did not need to exist, but for much of the film, they were its focus.

 

On 09/06/2018 at 9:00 AM, Docteur Qui said:

Where to begin? I like how it’s shot for starters. It’s visually the most striking film in the franchise since the original. The use of colour and texture is fascinating and is used to great effect. 

 

The meta commentary about moving forward from the past and forging one’s own path was a genuine breath of fresh air, particularly after the soft reboot of TFA. This theme intersects with almost every aspect of the film, and is crucial to its success in my eyes. Using Yoda to explicitly reinforce this theme was a great use of the character.

 

Adam Driver’s performance as Kylo Ren (and the writing of the character) is easily the best part of the film. Both the actor and script elevated a vaguely interesting character into one of the most compelling villains since Walter White. 

 

Carrie Fisher clearly had a blast making this film. The image of her, frozen in space, while Leia’s Theme churns along in the background is a tableau that - regardless of if you loved or hated the film - will not be forgotten any time soon.

 

 

Rey is the glue that holds it all together. She’s impossible not to root for, her energy and optimism infectious. The revelation that she’s a nobody was delivered perfectly - it’s absolutely devastating for her to hear, and Kylo using it to attempt to manipulate her twists the knife even further. 

 

I’m going to leave it here for now, not because that’s all I have to say, but because it’s an absurd state of affairs when someone unironicaly asks why you enjoy a critically acclaimed film. I’d tell you to read a review some time but I suspect you think that film critics are all Disney shills or something.

 

Nice photography really doesn't make poorly-written film any better. It should add to it.

 

The film was not "about moving forward from the past and forging one’s own path". The film's central theme was learning from one's failures.

 

I'll give you that Kylo Ren was compelling in the film. Unfortunately, he was not portrayed as threatening or respected - two essential elements of a worthy villain. He acts more like a spoiled, upset child.

 

"Carrie Fisher clearly had a blast making this film." To me, she looked depressed in practically every scene. Maybe that demeanor fits her on-screen character. But your theory that she enjoyed herself during filming means absolutely nothing when discussing the film's strengths and weakness - nor does a single scene being unforgettable, especially when the scene didn't contribute to the story because Kylo didn't destroy the bridge.

 

The influence of samurai films was refreshing. But did we really need three flashback stories of Luke’s betrayal? 

 

The fight scene between the armored guards and Rey/Ren was exciting but, upon further viewing is a bit contrived. In TFA, Kylo stopped a laser blast mid-air, carried on a conversion, and gave orders while keeping the laser beam stationary. So why does he have such an issue disposing of the guards? Between the films, his abilities seem to have diminished. Also, Rey is successful in defending herself against the guards - who, we assume, wanted to kill her - without assistance from Kylo. Though Rey helped (and trusted) Kylo when she threw him her lightsaber to kill the final guard. Because I am confused at these circumstances, this scene was written/executed poorly.

 

"Rey is the glue that holds it all together. She’s impossible not to root for, her energy and optimism infectious." I mostly agree. But she doesn't really do much in the film. But without her and Luke, TLJ completely falls apart.

 

The revelation was not "that she’s a nobody". It was that her parents were nobodies. Klyo was convincing, but of course, we don't know if he was telling the truth.

 

I say "it’s an absurd state of affairs when" so many people try to defend this terrible film. I couldn't care less if it's "critically acclaimed". Trust me, I've watched/read plenty of reviews. I don't think that all film critics are "Disney shills". But I do think many Star Wars fans want to like TLJ because it's official, new Star Wars that looks and sounds great. But they can't bring themselves to admit that the movie was underwhelming, disappointing, or simply bad.

 

On 09/06/2018 at 2:23 PM, Docteur Qui said:

A Mary Sue is a self-insert female character who is portrayed as flawless and admired by every single person who interacts with them. Rey is not a Mary Sue.

 

Apart from not being able to remember her childhood, Rey is without any notable flaw. She is initially portrayed as a street-smart scavenger. But across the two films (that span just a few days), she quickly learns the ways of the Force and succeeds in most endeavours - but without being portrayed having learned new skills, therefor does not earn the audience's respect. Having said this, every major character admires or is impressed by her. Rey is a Mary Sue.

 

On 09/06/2018 at 2:39 PM, Chen G. said:

I said "kinda".

 

The original Mary Sue is a character from a short Star-Trek fanfic, and yes, she goes by the traits you marked, as well as by meeting a tragic end.

 

And while I don't mind Rey and I don't think she represents a particularly toxic brand of feminism, I also think her many, many strengths are narrativelly convenient. Her saving grace is that, internally, she is full of self-doubt in her capabilities, which is always nice in a Hero's Journey story.

 

Rey is full of self-doubt in her capabilities? Quite the opposite, I say.

 

On 09/06/2018 at 2:44 PM, Nick1066 said:

I don't think Rey is much of a Mary Sue (though she is a bit), and I think she's actually a very well drawn character.

 

That said, contrary to popular wisdom, I don't think TLJ did a particularly good job of showing "strong" female characters. In fact I'd say it does this the worst of any Star Wars film. And this comes down lazy writing and shortcuts.

 

And if we're talking about genre franchises, I actually think Game of Thrones, LOTR and especially Star Trek do a much better job on this score.

 

Rey is likable, but so far, the movies have not shown why she exists. Is she just the ani-Kylo Ren? Hopefully Ep. 9 will explain.

 

On 10/06/2018 at 4:09 AM, Chen G. said:

It’s a fantasy set in space. It’s not a science-fiction movie!

 

Really, my issue with the scene is the fake “OMG, a main character is dead” moment. It’s a cheap trick to get a rise out of the audience.

 

None of the Star Wars trilogies were ever planned out from the outset. You could make the argument that they should have pulled a Lord of the Rings and shot the whole trilogy as one production under one writer/director/producer - I would even agree, but you can’t say this “making it up as one’s going along” is out-of-character for Star Wars as a series.

 

Story-telling is all about setup and payoff. There is no setup or payoff with the 'space Leia' scene. There should have been a scene after Leia wakes up from her coma that explains what happened. Poe or Holdo could have asked Leia how did she did that with the Force. Leia could have said something like, "I don't know how I did that. Somehow the Force took a hold of me and saved me." It's so odd how no one in the film mentions what Leia did. It's brushed off like she does things like that all the time.

 

Also, there is no payoff for Leia surviving. She could have died and - apart from getting to have the brief scene with 'Luke' - the movie would have turned out exactly the same. It's as if that scene was shoehorned-in just to be unexpected and memorable. But it should have served a purpose in the story. With re-shoots they could have switched Leia and Holdo, and Leia could have been the one to light-speed the ship into the First Order fleet. This would explain why the Force kept Leia alive. Somehow, the Force knew Leia would need to sacrifice herself in order to save the remaining Resistance members.

 

On 10/06/2018 at 4:25 AM, Arpy said:

They hired Trevorrow with good intentions, a good working relationship after Jurassic World's success but after The Book of Henry flopped miserably, Kennedy saved us a bullet by canning him. In the case of Solo, it was Lawrence Kasdan who was responsible in the original two directors' removal. 

 

Don't forget, they had asked Abrams back for the next two, but had to look elsewhere when he left.

 

"Saved us"? Give me a break. Kennedy screwed-up again, wasting time and money. In the case of Solo, Kasdan was the head writer, but Kennedy was President, so she had final say in firing the directors.

 

On 10/06/2018 at 9:49 AM, Docteur Qui said:

I laid down at least 5 reasons that I like the film - almost all of which had to do with story and character - and which at least 7 other people agreed with. Stop ignoring posts that aren't fitting your little head-canon about who does or does not like a kid's film. You're getting desperate.

 

Ok. Here's where I'm calling you out. You spent a good amount of previous posts complaining how all of the male characters in TLJ are flawed, and now you're dismissing the main female character in this series as not flawed enough? The level of hypocrisy coming from you is staggering. Where are your complaints about Luke not being flawed in the OT? Why is he not also a Mary Sue? Why is Anakin - who successfully destroys an entire space station the first time he flies into space - not an overpowered, genius Mary Sue either? Because they are male characters, and for some reason you don't hold the writing of male characters to the same standard as female characters. This is sexism and why people have been calling you out.

 

For what it's worth, I don't think Rey is the most interesting character. She has few major flaws, but again, that's the archetype of the hero. Her personal insecurities about her lineage and her naive view of the world colour her character and create drama, but like Luke the majority of the conflict is from an external place. Ridley's performance however is hypnotic and charismatic.

 

Calm down, Docteur. I said "most" people, I can't respond to everyone quickly.

 

I noted that all of the male characters in TLJ were flawed, meaning, they were deliberately written to be deficient in some way: subordinate, stupid, disenchanted, mistake-prone, back-stabbing, etc. And yes, the main female character (Rey) is not flawed enough (for the reasons I noted above). How is that hypocrisy? Luke in the OT had an arc across three films, spanning years. Anakin was established as being conceived by the Force. He was a pilot, and his ship was auto-piloted to the space station. Destroying the station was portrayed as an accident in the film, but it was certainly the will of the Force. While I admit that scene was a conveniently written, the character of Anakin had an origin and progression. I don't favor Anakin and Luke's characters "because they are male". I favor theme because the characters' powers were explained and/or earned. So far, Rey's have not. People are not sexist for noticing this major difference.

 

On 10/06/2018 at 11:38 AM, Arpy said:

Rey's character is defined by her innocence and her determination, much like Luke, she's thrust into a galactic war with the information that she has the force and is on a journey to discover who she is and help save her friends. Where her character becomes more interesting than Luke is that she's given no answers, just more questions, there's no Obi-Wan or Yoda to guide her (just a dejected Luke in TLJ), she turns to Kylo Ren instead for her answers - even believing she can save him from his journey to the Dark Side.

 

Well said. I just wish the overall writing was better... and that audience wasn't kept in the dark until the final episode of the trilogy.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

32 minutes ago, Mattris said:

and that audience wasn't kept in the dark until the final episode of the trilogy.

 

You don't like surprises?

[Arpy 4,145]

Kept in the dark? Only if the one shred of hope you were holding onto in the last two films was the truth of Rey's parentage, I suppose I was just too busy enjoying the rest of the story, action, characters etc.

50 minutes ago, Mattris said:

 

Well said. I just wish the overall writing was better... and that audience wasn't kept in the dark until the final episode of the trilogy.

 

Leia's survival was important, she was the symbol of hope and true leader of the Rebellion and Resistance, if she had just died I think people would still be complaining. Just like people's reverence for Han Solo, don't you think that same reverence for Leia exists? They weren't going to kill of one of the original cast in the opening space battle.

[Mattris 416]

Most of the film's characters had little-to-no development from TFA. And it's hard to enjoy the story and action when I don't really care about the characters and what drives them. Finn, a former Stormtrooper, was reduced to preachy Rose's side-kick, who stops him from saving the Resistance with the ultimate sacrifice. After Admiral Ackbar was unceremoniously killed, purple-haired, non-uniformed Vice Admiral Holdo appeared out of nowhere and was made the commanding officer... and was made to seem irrational to Poe (and the audience) in the most serious of circumstances. Was Poe portrayed as impatient, hasty, and mutinous just so he could 'grow' as a leader? It all seemed a bit on the nose.

 

Regarding Leia's space survival, why tease the audience if she's going to survive but do nothing else notable in the film? For Episode 9, Leia will have to be announced as dead/gone for good in the opening crawl, killed quickly on-screen, or re-cast. After Carrie's death, re-shoots and editing could have fixed much of TLJ. But Kennedy and Johnson held firm... and ultimately paid for it.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

As I've stated several times on this forum. All the 4 main characters had character development. So did a few of the supporting ones, like Luke.

 

Isn't it possible you're taking Star Wars a bit too seriously though?

[publicist 4,643]

You don't say?

[Arpy 4,145]

 

17 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Most of the film's characters had little-to-no character development. And it's hard to enjoy the story and action when I don't really care about the characters and what drives them. Finn, a former Stormtrooper, was reduced to preachy Rose's side-kick, who stops him from saving the Resistance that would have been the ultimate sacrifice. After Admiral Ackbar was unceremoniously killed, purple-haired, non-uniformed Vice Admiral Holdo appeared out of nowhere and was made the commanding officer, but was made to seem irrational to Poe and the audience. Was Poe portrayed as impatient, hasty, and mutinous just so he could 'grow' as a leader? It all seemed a bit on the nose.

 

 

Poe is a pilot for the Resistance, not a fucking General. It's like a child believing he's in charge because he's a good fighter. Admiral Ackbar is a fucking goofy alien character that's barely a character at all, why does anyone, let alone Ackbar deserve a death scene?

 

Leia wasn't wearing a uniform, so Holdo has to?

 

19 minutes ago, Mattris said:

 

Regarding Leia's space survival, why tease the audience if she's going to survive but do nothing else notable in the film? For Episode 9, Leia will have to be announced as 'dead' in the opening crawl, killed quickly on-screen, or re-cast. After Carrie's death, re-shoots and editing could have fixed much of this film. But it seems Kennedy and Johnson held firm... and ultimately paid for it.

 

Back to Kennedy and Johnson again? Why do you feel she has a personal vendetta against 'the audience'?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Because there are too many nerdy sissy men in the audience and it needs 50/50 attendance with women!

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

She must appease the needs of lonely single nerds such as me! 

...I mean, not she herself, get Daisy Ridley to do the appeasing, not Kathleen herself, ew..

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Daisy Ridley reminds me too much of my sister to get worked up over.

[Holko 9,520]

Bad move, now we'll get worked up over your sister.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

23 minutes ago, Margo Channing said:

Daisy Ridley reminds me too much of my sister to get worked up over.

Great, now your sister has fans here!

[Mattris 416]

18 hours ago, Stefancos said:

As I've stated several times on this forum. All the 4 main characters had character development. So did a few of the supporting ones, like Luke.

 

Isn't it possible you're taking Star Wars a bit too seriously though?

 

To me, Luke's development was the most significant... by far. He realized that, while he had failed Ben, he could still do good and save his sister and the Resistance. (But couldn't Finn have done that?) But what I don't like is that Luke didn't give Rey much hope or confidence... and never left the island. Poe was scolded for his decision-making at the beginning of the film... but was shown to have gained leadership qualities. So that's something. Having said that, Kylo is still a spoiled, angry brat. Rey is still likable and inexplicably powerful. And Finn is still... alive.

 

I admit, I am taking Star Wars a bit serious. But, like many fans, I can see this franchise is going downhill fast. So many fans are disappointed... when we just want to be entertained. But as long as we remain respectful, talking with those of differing opinions can be fulfilling. I've certainly gained from this discussion. I only hope the leadership at Lucasfilm will listen to the fans... or things will only get worse before they get better.

 

18 hours ago, Arpy said:

Poe is a pilot for the Resistance, not a fucking General. It's like a child believing he's in charge because he's a good fighter. Admiral Ackbar is a fucking goofy alien character that's barely a character at all, why does anyone, let alone Ackbar deserve a death scene?

 

Leia wasn't wearing a uniform, so Holdo has to?

 

Back to Kennedy and Johnson again? Why do you feel she has a personal vendetta against 'the audience'?

 

Poe didn't want command of the mission. He just wanted to be kept abreast of Holdo's plan concerning the survival of the Resistance. She told him to get lost. So he made the decision to take matters into his own hands. Considering that Holdo didn't tell him that her plan was Leia's, I don't blame him for what he did.

 

Admiral Ackbar's nothing-of-death-scene was another 'f--- you' to the fans, as well an excuse to insert (Professor Gender Studies) Holdo, who was a Vice Admiral. All other women in command positions wore uniforms. I do think it was a bit silly that Leia wasn't wearing the same clothes from TFA. A dress seemed inappropriate, but I suppose she had to dress-up for her space walk!

 

It's obvious to me (and millions of others) that Kathleen Kennedy wanted to use Star Wars to further her SJW/feminist agenda. So far, it hasn't worked out. But she can keep trying... until she is fired or moves on, of course.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

2 minutes ago, Mattris said:

I admit, I am taking Star Wars a bit serious. But, like many fans, I can see this franchise is going downhill fast. So many fans are disappointed... when we just want to be entertained.

 

It's been my observation that "hard core" fans want more than to just be entertained. they want their subject of devotion to mean something, and get upset when it goes into a different direction than what they think it should be.

 

Neither TLJ or Solo are offensive in any way to the average cinema goer, who is now having Star Wars ruined for them by a vocal minority.

[Chen G. 3,949]

1 hour ago, Stefancos said:

Isn't it possible you're taking Star Wars a bit too seriously though?

 

@Mattris, listen to the man!

 

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

Most of the film's characters had little-to-no development from TFA. And it's hard to enjoy the story and action when I don't really care about the characters and what drives them. Finn, a former Stormtrooper, was reduced to preachy Rose's side-kick, who stops him from saving the Resistance with the ultimate sacrifice. After Admiral Ackbar was unceremoniously killed, purple-haired, non-uniformed Vice Admiral Holdo appeared out of nowhere and was made the commanding officer... and was made to seem irrational to Poe (and the audience) in the most serious of circumstances. Was Poe portrayed as impatient, hasty, and mutinous just so he could 'grow' as a leader? It all seemed a bit on the nose.

 

First thing, this film (again out of Johnson's desire to surprise us) uses Rey as a false protagonist. The main character instead being Luke Skywalker. He undergoes the greatest character trasnformation, and its his character transformation that resolves the problem at the film's true climax, there being a false one (again, out of the need to surprise us, the audience) with Snoke, Holdo and Phasma earlier in the film.

 

Thinking about it, I am having trouble defining Rey's character transformation. Maybe its just that I haven't watched the film in quite some time (like I said, there's something about the film that left me unenthused to ever rewatch it) but I seem to recall that her story throughout this film has to do with her becoming disillusioned with Luke and with Kylo (having grown to trust him, falsly, after the midpoint). But that's doesn't change her personality, which is what character transformation is all about.

 

Kylo Ren does transform, but its mostly offscreen. Unlike Michael Tucker who reads Kylo's conflict between good and evil as genuine, I see it quite clearly as an act he is putting on for Rey to get her by his side when he dispatches of Snoke, so she can help him do away with the guards. A tell-tale sign is that, during the battle with the guards, while Rey is helping Kylo, the same cannot be said for Kylo returning the favor, even though the camera clearly shows him seeing her in a tight spot. Its still a transformation of sorts (from loyal apprentice to usurper), but it happens offscreen. 

 

The less is said about Finn and Rose the better, but the former of the two does trasnform, albeit not enough to justify his time-consuming and utterly boring subplot. Tucker hinges this ineffective character transformation upon an excised scene, but to my mind even with that scene re-instated it wouldn't have worked. Even when Finn "tries to run" it isn't to defect from the resistance (as Rose thinks) but to get the signal that's meant to call Rey back to them from what has clearly become a death trap. Even if he hasn't joined the ressistance directly, he joined them by default, through sharing their ideals.

 

Outside of Luke, Poe has one the most defined character transformations in the film: from a hot-headed, rushed, narrow-minded pilot to a thoughtfull, responsible leader.

 

28 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Neither TLJ or Solo are offensive in any way to the average cinema goer, who is now having Star Wars ruined for them by a vocal minority.

How are these movies ruined to the average filmgoer? They don't see this bickering any more than they see the supposedly-offensive nature of The Last Jedi.

[Arpy 4,145]

17 minutes ago, Mattris said:

 

 

It's obvious to me (and millions of others) that Kathleen Kennedy wanted to use Star Wars to further her SJW/feminist agenda. So far, it hasn't worked out. But she can keep trying... until she is fired or moves on, of course.

 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

6 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

How are these movies ruined to the average filmgoer? They don't see this bickering any more than they see the supposedly-offensive nature of The Last Jedi.

 

If all this "fan" backlash means Lucasfilm will go and and just make "safe" Star Wars film that don't take any changes or venture out of the well tradden SW comfort zone, yes then they will have ruined the franchise for the average movie goer.

 

Of course Solo played everything quite save and the "fans" didnt like that either, so what do i know?

[Chen G. 3,949]

The Last Jedi did well enough, commercially, for Lucasfilm to not get too discouraged. Its Solo, the safe-choice, that's failed; and that wasn't because it was safe or innovative but because it (appearantly) sucked.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

But that's just the thing. It didnt suck! It was perfectly fine for what it was.

[Arpy 4,145]

The critics loved TLJ, a majority of people whom I know and are casual fans liked it. It's when I read facebook or youtube comments, or here on this forum that there's this negative sentimentality towards the film.

 

Conspiracy theorists will say 'but Disney paid the critics'. So when the reviews I read gave an honest opinion of the film, revealing some of the flaws we've all been talking about here and agree on, they're paid too?

[Chen G. 3,949]

17 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

It was perfectly fine for what it was.

 

As much as I am a fan of examining each film on its own terms, it only goes so far: sometimes, what a movie is just isn't enough, from the outset. That seems to be the case with Solo.

 

Having not seen it, I wouldn't presume to pass judgment, but I've only heard things that range from bad, to faint praise.

 

10 minutes ago, Arpy said:

Conspiracy theorists will say 'but Disney paid the critics'. So when the reviews I read gave an honest opinion of the film

 

I think that critics can be swayed by the "zeitgeist", as it were. i.e. when a franchise like Disney's Star Wars earns their good faith with a strong entry or two, that favorable impression can carry over to films of this franchise that don't necessarily deserve the praise: Solo, as well as portions of The Last Jedi, being such a case.

 

Perhaps the best example of this phenomenon is Marvel who, having earned critics and audiences' trust, can shell out quite vapid content and still be looked at favorably.

[Holko 9,520]

It's alright I guess: not very noteworthy in any aspect but its score (which is not even that present in the mix); the action got a bit too much; it was just fine enough that I'm not that interested in seeing it again - a first in Star Wars since AotC for me, but not nearly for the same reason.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

What it needed Natalie Portman as Qi'ra and Margo Channing as Han.

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

1 hour ago, Holko said:

Bad move, now we'll get worked up over your sister.

 

No harm. I'm not sharing pics of her.

[Arpy 4,145]

@Chen G. That's not entirely the case, but I think it's half true, so to speak. Clickbait articles and the fast-food culture of bitesize information has infected film criticism even from some often well respected outlets, but there still persists an unbiased and fair few critics who aren't shilling the product to stay afloat. Even in some of the Marvel-crazed reviews one can still find level headed reflections and an understanding that breaks through the rose tinted goggles these critics are forced to wear.

[Mattris 416]

34 minutes ago, Arpy said:

THEN YOU ARE LOST!

 

Nah, it's Kathleen Kennedy who has lost. Mark my words, she'll announce her resignation within a few months.

 

With hundreds of millions of fans worldwide, Star Wars films need to be making at least double their all-in budget to be considered successful. Marvel movies have no problem doing this because they have someone in charge who understands and cares about the stories, characters, and fans.

 

No doubt Disney is making changes behind the scenes at Lucasfilm. Hopefully, the result will be better Star Wars films -- preferably without agenda-driven nonsense. I won't hold my breath.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Katheen Kennedy will instead head Marvel. It needth more feminithm.

[Chen G. 3,949]

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

Mark my words, she'll announce her resignation within a few months.

 

One flop in what has been thus far one of the most lucrative series in recent memory will surely be troubling, but I don't for a second feel that it will hurt Kennedy's carreer; again, because of that by-and-large highly lucrative nature of the franchise.

 

[Arpy 4,145]

@Mattris If Kennedy steps down, I don't see things changing, I don't see how the supposed failure rests at her feet either, it's just the hit and miss nature of these massive tentpole blockbusters. Even directors and producers with the best intentions creatively will make mistakes.

 

I would argue the production woes surrounding the spin-off films aren't to be taken so naively as some beacon of a sinking ship, it's damage control and course correction for one of the most beloved and biggest franchises ever. Fuck, I can't imagine the anxiety alot of these directors and producers are facing to not screw up these films, and then receive all the bullshit from butthurt fans that it didn't turn out like they wanted it to.

 

 

[Nick1Ø66 4,712]

Interesting article on this topic in Forbes the other day. Apparently Kennedy IS considering stepping down (though it’s just a rumour at this point).

 

Kathleen Kennedy Is Still The Best Person To Make 'Star Wars' Movies

[Mattris 416]

I don't care about the directors' and producers' anxiety issues. We pay to see their films, so we should to hold them to a higher standard.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

12 minutes ago, Mattris said:

I don't care about the directors' and producers' anxiety issues. We pay to see their films, so we should to hold them to a higher standard.

 

Holy fuck, do you even work?

[Mattris 416]

What I should have said is that the directors, producers, and writers are being paid extremely well to do their jobs. The fans, who pay to see their films, should hold their films to a high standard - and not be concerned with their anxiety issues.