Star Wars Disenchantment

[Holko 9,516]

Also people smiling at nothing to make the movie more "fun".

[John 2,032]

9 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

I agree with Thor!

 

 

My name... is... John!

[Chen G. 3,948]

28 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

ROTS has about 20 minutes that are acceptable. The rest is as piss poor as the previous two.

 

Still better than Return of the Jedi...

 

It just gets a free pass (of sorts) because its lumped under the title "original trilogy", whatever that means.

 

The inverse is true of Revenge of the Sith: it often gets shade because its lumped under the title of "the prequels".

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

ROTJ has better effects and a better score.

[Chen G. 3,948]

Who cares about effects?! I care about the story being told, and Revenge of the Sith tells its story (marginally) better. Hell, Return of the Jedi doesn't have a story until 40 minutes in, and even when it does - half of it is the story of the original Star Wars, retold.

 

The score, too, suffers from this. Revenge of the Sith has that heartbreaking lament theme as its identity. Because it has no throughline of a story, the closest Return of the Jedi has to a main theme is the bloody Ewok material.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Ok 

[John 2,032]

ROTJ has better special effects, a better score, better characters, better acting, better screenplay, better camerawork, etc. 

 

ROTJ is a better film than ROTS in pretty much every department. 

[Chen G. 3,948]

4 minutes ago, John said:

better screenplay, better camerawork

 

It doesn't have a better screenplay: like I said, it doesn't have a plot until 40 minutes in, and with the introduction of the Ewoks the story goes on vacation, again. It also has that three-pronged (as originaly scripted, four pronged!) finale, which is way too much. Revenge of the Sith only has two, at most.

 

And it doesn't have better camerawork. Better lighting - perhaps. The camerawork kinda sucks in both.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

RotJ was the first film produced using THX enhancement and certification, however THX standards had significantly improved by the time RotS was made, which means the sound and image quality is better in every way.

[John 2,032]

2 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

It doesn't have a better screenplay: like I said, it doesn't have a plot until 40 minutes in, and with the introduction of the Ewoks the story goes on vacation, again. It also has that three-pronged (as originaly scripted, four pronged!) finale, which is way too much. Revenge of the Sith only has two, at most.

 

And it doesn't have better camerawork. Better lighting - perhaps.

 

I don’t even know what to say, other than I vehemently disagree and am confused by your admiration for ROTS. 

[Chen G. 3,948]

Admiration?! Hardly.

 

I just find it marginally better than Return of the Jedi.

 

Its an alright film, I think; which is a shame to say, because it has a premise which - in more capable hands - could have made it the very best Star Wars film.

 

I know a couple of discerning filmgoers that love it, though.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I enjoy AOTC because of how Sydney it feels. I'm not sure how to explain that, but it just feels that way because of all the local talent it uses.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

4 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

I know a couple of discerning certifiable filmgoers that love it, though.

 

Fixed!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

All the prequels are great.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

35 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

, the closest Return of the Jedi has to a main theme is the bloody Ewok material.

And it's catchy! 

[Bilbo 3,709]

RotJ is pretty crap. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Its boring, for most of it.

[Chen G. 3,948]

Even the action in it ain't too good.

 

I'm not going to say its "crap" or anything. Its...okay.

 

And it did succesfully close the book on the story of the Star Wars. Just barely, but it did.

[Bilbo 3,709]

The whole Jabba’s palace sequence exists to resolve the subplot of Harrison Ford’s contract. For the rest of the film the character goes around asking as if he’s had his balls cut off. 

 

The film absolutely stops dead the second they hit Endor. Everything on Endor has this awful over saturation look to it. It looks like it was pissing rain between takes. 

 

The Ewoks are just a pain in the hoop. 

 

Anything that doesnt feature Luke/Vader/Palp is entirely skipable.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Han and Leia are awful in it. What happened to the sassy? 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Hold me!

[Bespin 8,480]

I wonder why I take sleeping pills, I just remembered that when the first Ewok appears in Jedi, I fall instantly asleep!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Hey! Hey! Pay attention!

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

19 minutes ago, Bespin said:

I wonder why I take sleeping pills

[Bilbo 3,709]

56 minutes ago, Horner's Dynamic Range said:

Hold me!

 

Like you did by the lake on Naboo when when there was nothing but our love. 

[Nick Parker 3,040]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

The score, too, suffers from this. Revenge of the Sith has that heartbreaking lament theme as its identity. Because it has no throughline of a story, the closest Return of the Jedi has to a main theme is the bloody Ewok material.

 

There's more to a score's identity than themes, I've said repeatedly. Even in Revenge of the Sith, the lament theme isn't really a strong backbone or throughline, as you say--it's very effective, but it only pops up, what, twice? 

 

For both scores, mood from the orchestrations and general "attitude" of the music is what gives them their character and consistency--and very well, I might add.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

You wanted to see me, Chancellor.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

8 minutes ago, Nick Parker said:

There's more to a score's identity than themes, I've said repeatedly. Even in Revenge of the Sith, the lament theme isn't really a strong backbone or throughline, as you say--it's very effective, but it only pops up, what, twice? 

 

This! There's several themes, but they all feel rather underused. 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

It's not all about themes. Did JW himself basically ruin everyone's perception of music with his use of leitfmotif in SW? ROTS is like a great symphony for at least 45 minutes.

[Bilbo 3,709]

He hasn’t bettered the last hour of RotS since. It’s amazing. 

[Chen G. 3,948]

51 minutes ago, Nick Parker said:

There's more to a score's identity than themes, I've said repeatedly. Even in Revenge of the Sith, the lament theme isn't really a strong backbone or throughline, as you say--it's very effective, but it only pops up, what, twice? 

  

For both scores, mood from the orchestrations and general "attitude" of the music is what gives them their character and consistency--and very well, I might add.

 

The lament proper only pops up in the second half of the score - after Anakin turns.

 

But its built off of Across the Stars, so even when we're hearing it for the first time, it feels like we've heard it before: it carries with it the associative power of Across the Stars.

 

And yes, mood and color are important, too. Revenge of the Sith being the most elegiac and the most operatic of the lot - and I love it for that.

 

Return of the Jedi, however? Meh.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

21 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

But its built off of Across the Stars, so even when we're hearing it for the first time, it feels like we've heard it before: it carries with it the associative power of Across the Stars.

 

This is a very cerebral angle that I'm not sure is substantiated: never once, even after you point this out--which frankly sounds more like bleeding of Williams' melody writing in the 2000's than a twist on Across the Stars--did I ever feel this association you describe, nor any connotative weight as a result of this.

25 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Revenge of the Sith being the most elegiac and the most operatic of the lot - and I love it for that.

 

Like I and others said, here Williams kicked some major ass.

[Demodex 557]

32 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

But its built off of Across the Stars, so even when we're hearing it for the first time, it feels like we've heard it before: it carries with it the associative power of Across the Stars.

 

This is the first time I've ever heard this.  I never associated it with that. 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

It's like the Emperor's theme in Orgy's Great Municipal Band!

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

I wish the Cantina Band scored the last third of Revenge of the Sith instead.

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

And yes, mood and color are important, too. Revenge of the Sith being the most elegiac and the most operatic of the lot - and I love it for that.,

Yes, and there is plenty of Prequel brass. That stuff can never be overrated!

 

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

The lament proper only pops up in the second half of the score - after Anakin turns.

 

But its built off of Across the Stars, so even when we're hearing it for the first time, it feels like we've heard it before: it carries with it the associative power of Across the Stars.

So the Lament is a take on the Funeral theme from TPM, which also plays during Padme's Funeral. The particular Lament rendition however, is played during the Order 66 montage. Am I right? 

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

The Ewok theme is stuck in my head today.

 

Someone help me, for god's sake. It's so ear-wormy!!

[Chen G. 3,948]

38 minutes ago, The Illustrious Jerry said:

So the Lament is a take on the Funeral theme from TPM, which also plays during Padme's Funeral. The particular Lament rendition however, is played during the Order 66 montage. Am I right? 

 

The funeral theme is a different one. It plays when Padme dies and in her funeral, and I think there's a whiff of it during Order 66. It contributes to the elegiac vibe all the more.

 

The lament theme (which according to Williams laments "some very dark turns in the action of Anakin's turn from the light to the dark" - so it is a motif whose existence and purpose is confirmed by the Maestro) is the bulk of the Order 66 sequence, but it also plays right before the climactic duel, and when Anakin is immolated. Its VERY effective.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

It's a great score.

[Arpy 4,145]

@Chen G. Did Williams ever say the lament ('Anakin's Betrayal' on album) shared the DNA of Across the Stars? I don't hear that particular connection...

 

5 hours ago, Norma's Corpse said:

I enjoy AOTC because of how Sydney it feels. I'm not sure how to explain that, but it just feels that way because of all the local talent it uses.

It also feels like it was shot during the summer or something, there's sunshine and life and colour! 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

[Falstaft 2,132]

4 hours ago, Chen G. said:

The lament theme [...] when Anakin is immolated.

 

Not 100% sure about this connection. In terms of tone, definitely (tragic, string-dominated elegy), they're kindred cues. But in terms of a substantive motivic connection, the most I can detect is a short intraphrasal 3-2-3-1 melodic motion at 0:50 of "The Immolation Scene," no more and no less. I don't doubt that it's a dramatically fitting similar idea, and worth noting in an analysis, but my gut tells me it's a coincidence, and that the "Lament" only gets those other two airings during ROTS you mention. 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Did Thor change his username? He can't do that. Shoot him. Or something.

[Mattris 416]

On 10/18/2018 at 4:23 AM, Arpy said:

WHAT!?!?!?! 50% of Star Wars fans will skip episode 9?!?!

 

Okay, alright alright, that is absurd and extremely stupid. Oh my God, at least I had a good laugh when I read it out to those around me!

 

50% of Star Wars fans will skip Episode 9 in the theaters... in order to make their point: they strongly dislike Disney/Lucasfilm's handling of the franchise and don't appreciate being insulted or dehumanized after expressing disappointment. Solo made 65% less than Rogue One, so why is my prediction "absurd and extremely stupid"?

 

On 10/18/2018 at 5:57 AM, Arpy said:

Troll!

These have been addressed numerous times.

 

Luke died without having left the island. Hmm, I don't remember feeling an urge to see him die elsewhere if that would even be necessary? 

 

We are engaging in civil debate, @Arpy. Do not call me a troll again. Any further uses of this word towards me will result in me ignoring your posts.

 

That long list of ridiculous events in the TLJ were "addressed" - but not excused... and are major issues to many fans. Add in Lucasfilm's subsequent behavior, and the fans are divided. The fact that there were so many un-StarWarsy things in TLJ supports my theory that Rian Johnson knew he was making a divisive film... oh, and the fact that he stated on camera that he likes making movies in which "half the audience will walk out of the movie saying its the worst movie they've ever seen".

 

Luke died without having left the island... without the audience being told why he gave up after making one mistake. And considering that the Finn's self-sacrifice attempt was foiled by Rose, Luke wouldn't have needed to use his Force-projection powers with the First Order's door-destroying weapon destroyed. The specific way these events transpired makes it very clear that Johnson was screwing with the audience. Luke Skywalker died by suicide. What an utter disgrace to his character by Rian Johnson, who shouldn't be let within 100 miles of any future Star Wars productions, much less be given a trilogy.

 

On 10/18/2018 at 6:04 AM, Bilbo said:

Mike Zeroh deserves to be mocked by everybody 

 

Rian Johnson publicly admitting to mocking a Star Wars fan and Youtuber. This just adds fuel to the boycott fire.

 

On 10/18/2018 at 6:11 AM, crumbs said:

Luke threw away his lightsaber in ROTJ as well, in an act of defiance and a refusal to fight.

 

Just saying.

 

When Luke threw away his lightsaber in front of the Emperor, it was to proclaim to him that he had become a Jedi. He knew he stood no chance at defeating the Emperor, so indeed, his actions then were "defiance and a refusal to fight." What distinguishes this event from the lightsaber tossing in TLJ is how it happened. After looking longingly at the girl who had presented him his original lightsaber, he proceeded to toss it over his shoulder - over a cliff - and walk by her without a single word.

 

If Luke was to refuse the lightsaber, he could have simply tossed the lightsaber aside or at her feet... or just given it back to her without a word. Playing that dramatic moment as comedy was extremely off-putting and aggressively disrespectful of the fans' expectations.

 

On 10/18/2018 at 6:15 AM, Norma's Corpse said:

I suppose the SJW stuff seems like a statement that "white cis masculine males don't deserve a voice anymore and must be punished for their history of oppression towards women, non-binaries and non-whites".

 

... even though Finn and Poe are not 'white'. Generally speaking, fans do not want "SJW stuff" or on-the-nose political/social statements in Star Wars, especially not in the feature films. But Kathleen Kennedy & Co. just couldn't resist, could they?

 

On 10/18/2018 at 6:36 AM, Chen G. said:

Unlike Mattris I do like the idea that the Jedi must end - but I'm disappointed that Rian didn't pursue it. That would have been much more complex,  as well as truly brave on his part as a storyteller. But no, we got a cop-out, instead.

 

I didn't say I disliked Luke statement that "the Jedi must end". I merely supposed that it was a reason I believed that Rian Johnson knew he was making a divisive film.

What I do have an issue with is Luke Skywalker making the claim that "The legacy of the Jedi is failure." As Obi-Wan told Luke, "For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times, before the Empire." The Empire controlled the galaxy for 25 years before the Rebellion and a Jedi Knight defeated it. Then 30 years later, Jedi Master Luke Skywalker made one mistake with Ben, who then joined the First Order. Luke then chose to give up. That's not exactly a 'legacy of failure', is it?
 

On 10/18/2018 at 7:24 AM, Demodex said:

The same can be said about the prequels.  It was ok when it was Lucas but not Disney?  Disney's movies are better than the prequels so I don't care that they're divisive.  I want good movies and that's what I got.  You can't please everyone.

 

I don't think Johnson was the first to establish this.

When did he act like a spoiled brat?

No lightsaber battle is NO BIG DEAL.  I'm glad we didn't get the same tired formula.  The battle with the guards was pretty cool at least.

Who cares where Luke died?  He says he came to that island to die, so it makes sense that's where he died.  Do you understand these movies?

 

With the Prequel Trilogy, George Lucas had a vision and a specific story to tell. The movies simply weren't made well. But his heart was in the right place... and Star Wars was his creation.

 

In general, the Disney SW movies are superior from a production-value standpoint, but are still horribly written and divisive. Those in charge have an agenda... and it's not to make movies that most fans (and the general public) will enjoy. "You can't please everyone." With Disney's resources and the best talent in the world within their reach, they could please the vast majority. But clearly, those in charge aren't trying to do this... and don't seem to care that a significant segment of the fans... no longer care to support them.

 

Johnson publicly concurred with the researcher in trying to attribute the backlash after TLJ to Russian bots. Pathetic attempt to change the narrative... a slight change of pace from calling people "trolls", "manbabies", and "assholes".

 

Spoiled brat Kylo: Arguing with Snoke regarding his abilities and Rey, smashing his helmet in the elevator, continuing to ask Rey to join him when she came to turn him, using the Force to demean Commander Hux, and his anger turned to foolishness after failing to kill Luke... twice

 

Correct, a lightsaber battle isn't required. But no one asked for "the same tired formula". Many capable writer could flesh-out a superb Episode 8... with all main events of TLJ still occurring. Rian Johnson just dropped the ball with a film that is simultaneously busy and lazy. 

 

The battle with the guards was pretty cool on first viewing, but again, why was Force-powerful Klyo so strained during the fight? And the digital removal of the dagger from the guard (that could have easily killed Rey) is just embarrassing from a choreography/editing standpoint.

 

The problem have is that Luke Skywalker was written to say 'he came to the island to die'... and then died there by suicide. I understand these movies far better than most - and that includes you.

 

On 10/18/2018 at 9:23 AM, Muldoon said:

I actually think this is entirely possible, but not because 50% of fans were pissed at TLJ. Think about it, how many older Star Wars fans probably just skip the cinema these days? Or never bothered with the new movies at all? Or don't watch movies much anymore, but still have fond memories of their childhoods and the original trilogy? Imagine that, Disney could be missing out on half the possible market while still making over a billion dollars per film!

 

Now, will 50% of young, internet-savvy fans skip Episode IX? Probably not. I probably will, but I expect many will go just to finish the trilogy.

 

My prediction is at least 50% of fans will deliberately skip its theatrical run in a show of force. Many of the general audience will have been turned-off by TLJ and will simply choose to attend other movies instead.

 

On 10/18/2018 at 9:29 AM, Arpy said:

Can you tell me what makes a Star Wars fan? Because I know some fans who hate TLJ like Mattris, some who love it, others who think it's okay, and those who couldn't give a rat's arse, and all those people consider themselves 'Star Wars Fans'...

 

Unless we can round up all these 'fans' and categorize them, I fail to see how it could be 50% or how anyone can make that claim without statistics.

 

Star Wars fan: a person interested in any Star Wars stories, characters, or films

 

50% is just an estimate. We'll see what happens with Episode 9's box office pull. I'll be surprised if any of these things* don't happen but the film makes $1B worldwide (~$600M after the theaters take their cut).

 

* Kathleen Kennedy (and her story group) step-away from Lucasfilm (or are fired), Rian Johnson's trilogy is announced to be cancelled, apologies for the insults are officially issued

[Bilbo 3,709]

20 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Rian Johnson publicly admitting to mocking a Star Wars fan and Youtuber. This just adds fuel to the boycott fire.

 

Zeroh just makes up shit and passes it off as fact. He’s obviously suffering from some form of mental illness. The people who watch his videos and report his “rumours” as if they have some chance of being correct are the problem for encouraging him in the first place. 

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

What part of "stop responding to him and he'll go away" are you not grasping?

[crumbs 14,306]

Has anyone ever been to the Cook Islands? I've been thinking about booking a holiday there but it seems the flights are pretty expensive.

 

Are the beaches nice? Would the Maldives be better?

[Chen G. 3,948]

47 minutes ago, Mattris said:

George Lucas had a vision and a specific story to tell

 

No.

 

He made it up as he went along.

[Holko 9,516]

His posts are getting sillier and sillier.

[crumbs 14,306]

Stop feeding the troll.