Star Wars Disenchantment

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

31 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Yup.

 

The manliest movie of all time. Hence it should come with a "feminist/SJW's keep out" warning.

 

Love the scene where longshanks throws his son's pansy "friend" out of the window! Good riddens I say!

[Chen G. 3,944]

I was thinking more along the lines of "some men are longer than others".

 

I can see SJWs having a field day on that.

[Fabulin 3,510]

.

 

[leeallen01 2,134]

Starship Troopers had men and women equal. Equally able to fight on the front lines. Equally able to lead the fleet. Equally able to be Sky Marshall. And most importantly; equally able to shower together.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

55 minutes ago, Fabulin said:

the manliest movie of all time is Samurai Cop

 

Fixed. 

[Fabulin 3,510]

.

[Bayesian 1,359]

2 hours ago, Stefancos said:

 

Love the scene where longshanks throws his son's pansy "friend" out of the window! Good riddens I say!

That had better be a bad joke made in poor taste. 

[Mattris 416]

 

19 hours ago, gkgyver said:

There is no such thing as a hero's journey in this sad trilogy. 

.....

Rey is a feminist wish fulfillment Mary Sue.

These film try to appeal to the lowest common denominator, which makes them appallingly dull and predictable.

 

Add token....

........................................

 

On the flipside, while the female characters are portrayed as morally and intellectually superior and succeeding, the male characters are miserable in these films.

 

What if this trilogy turns out to be a villain's journey instead?

 

4 hours ago, gkgyver said:

No offense to you, please, but I don't want to have to think about movies that deeply when it comes to the actual unfolding of the story. If a movie doesn't get me while I watch it, or actively talks down to me, it's done.

Looking at big brand movies like Star Wars from a social and zeitgeist point of view is interesting (and aggravating), but I have zero interest in theories about a movie I will never watch a second time. Or possibly first time.

 

Perhaps Palpatine planned the social manipulation and personally arranged all of the conveniences and contrivances? The whole Sequel Trilogy is one big social engineering experiment... to inject an agenda, placate to the masses, and frustrate millions, only to reveal the motives in the final act. Palpatine (Disney/Lucasfilm in the real world) is laughing at us now, but everything will make sense in the end!

 

11 hours ago, Stefancos said:

Some people just take it too seriously.

 

How would you like them to take it?

[John 2,032]

25 minutes ago, Mattris said:

What if Palpatine planned the social manipulation and personally arranged all of the conveniences and contrivances? The whole Sequel Trilogy is one big social engineering experiment... to inject an agenda, placate to the masses, and frustrate millions, only to reveal the motives in the final act. Palpatine (Disney/Lucasfilm in the real world) are laughing at us now, but everything will make sense in the end!

 

@Jay can you please relocate this nutcase back to the SWD thread?

 

what seems to be the issue, @zaddini?

[gkgyver 1,645]

4 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

The SJW's got a name for that: toxic masculinity.

 

Which means that one of my very favourite films (we all know which one) is about as toxic as it ever gets.

 

I know the term, I just wanted to rephrase it, so certain people don't get triggered.

2 minutes ago, Mattris said:

 

 

What if this trilogy turns out to be a villain's journey instead?

 

 

Perhaps Palpatine planned the social manipulation and personally arranged all of the conveniences and contrivances? The whole Sequel Trilogy is one big social engineering experiment... to inject an agenda, placate to the masses, and frustrate millions, only to reveal the motives in the final act. Palpatine (Disney/Lucasfilm in the real world) is laughing at us now, but everything will make sense in the end!

 

 

How would you like them to take it?

 

1. If it is a villain's journey (and I suspected that ever since I saw TLJ that one time) it's still a bland af movie.

 

2. No comment

 

3. I would like people to realize that movies aren't just made to entertain the masses.

[Mattris 416]

5 minutes ago, John said:

@Jay can you please relocate this nutcase back to the SWD thread?

 

No need to name-call. I didn't bring up any specifics. I was replying to @gkgyver in an effort to make sense of the plot, characters, and events within the sequel trilogy.

[Fargo 297]

[Mattris 416]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

@Mattris, you've shown me no reason in your time here on this site that you are not here for the sole purpose of arguing and debating with people about Star Wars, because you don't like the franchise any more.  There is nothing wrong with having that viewpoint and there is nothing wrong with debating topics back and forth on a message board, but every other user here balances out negative posts with positive ones, argumentative posts with appreciative posts, informative posts with silly posts, etc.  As a result I moved ALL your posts from here into the Disenchantment thread even the ones specifically about Episode 9.  If you want to be a contributing member of our forums, you're going to have to act more normally and less trolly and argumentative.  If you don't want to do that then I'm afraid I'm going to request that you do 100% of your posting in the disenchantment thread until you can prove that you deserve to be let out of it.  Even if you want to reply to this message, do it in that thread.  Thank you.

 

Hi @Jay First of all, I want to say that I love Star Wars. And, as one of the first individuals to become a member of JWFan.net, I love the music of John Williams. I am grateful for the website and understand that it is a privilege to be a contributing member of the forums.

 

Yes, 'arguing and debating with people about Star Wars' has been my focus as of late. My contributions over the last few days have been on-topic and more-hopeful regarding the sequel trilogy. I have also awarded loads of 'Reputations' to other members and in the Episode IX conversation.

 

I realize that the conversation in the IX topic had gotten derailed a bit, but this was largely due to others' derogatory posts directed at me. Please note that I only responded to others' off-topic posts. Though, I admit I should have limited my responses - at least in the number of words. I completely understand that you want to keep the Forum conversations on-topic. But I do not agree that "every other user here balances out negative posts with positive ones, argumentative posts with appreciative posts, informative posts with silly posts, etc." Is 'balanced posting' required to post within the Forum? While some of my posts are lengthy, repetitive, and/or passionate, they are substantive and on-topic -- not what I would classify as "trolly".

 

Could you please clarify what you mean by "trolly" behavior and "act more normally"? Thanks for your time.

[Remco 685]

On 3/29/2019 at 2:02 AM, Mattris said:

Before I explain how their themes are similar, want to have a crack at why you think they are not?

 

Apologies for the delay, but if you really want to, why not! First of all, as @Chen G. pointed out, I believe there is no way Williams knew about these things when composing Rey's theme, but let's get into detail anyway.

 

Quote

As always, John Williams' themes for the two characters fit like a glove. While their tone/character is distinctly unique, both themes begin with four phrases across four measures in 4/4 time.

 

This is incorrect, the phrase structures are in fact very different from each other. The Emperor's theme is a clear period of 8 bars with a very clear rhythmic structure of 1+1+2 bars, and then again 1+1+2 bars where the consequent phrase repeats the basic idea of the antecedent phrase. This all doesn't apply to Rey's theme: If you see it as a period, the interesting thing is that after the initial 2 + 2 bar phrase, the consequent phrase is a little different almost every instance the theme is played – both within the score itself and within the concert suite – and also, it extends greatly beyond the length of the antecedent phrase, often 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 bars, where the last three 2-bar groups are slight repetitions of the same melodic idea.

 

Another way of showing it:

 

Emperor: A + B + A + B'

Rey: A + B + C + D' + D'' + D''' 

 

About your analysis, it seems you're not aware of what a phrase exactly is and the way you seem to divide Rey's theme first 4 bars in 4 'phrases' makes no sense – but ok, here's what I can say about it.

 

Quote

 

First phrase: The second note of each theme is higher than the first; the third is lower than the first.

No, the third note of Emperor's theme is the same as the first. Both start with a minor third, I'll give you that.

 

Quote

Second phrase: Rey's Theme contains three ascending notes. The Emperor's Theme contains three descending notes.

 

I count two (ascending notes) in the second bar of Rey's Theme, not three. This is pointless anyway, because its seems you're making a division in her theme that isn't there: the first two bars are part of the same phrase.

 

Quote

Third phase: Rey's single note is followed by three descending note which start higher than the first. The Emperor's Theme is the same notes as in the first phrase.

 

I don't see the point here.

 

Quote

Fourth phrase: Both themes end with two isolated notes, with the second lower than the first. (When repeating, the Emperor's Theme often includes a third note.)

 

Assuming you mean the upbeat leading to the first note of the fourth bar. You know what, a melody can go up or down, and in this case the melodies both go down around the fourth bar but it's not the same interval – and also, the themes don't even end there, as I've explained above.

 

Edit: sorry @Jay, I didn't see your post yet.

[Jay 37,323]

33 minutes ago, Mattris said:

 

Hi @Jay First of all, I want to say that I love Star Wars. And, as one of the first individuals to become a member of JWFan.net, I love the music of John Williams. I am grateful for the website and understand that it is a privilege to be a contributing member of the forums.

 

Yes, 'arguing and debating with people about Star Wars' has been my focus as of late. My contributions over the last few days have been on-topic and more-hopeful regarding the sequel trilogy. I have also awarded loads of 'Reputations' to other members and in the Episode IX conversation.

 

I realize that the conversation in the IX topic had gotten derailed a bit, but this was largely due to others' derogatory posts directed at me. Please note that I only responded to others' off-topic posts. Though, I admit I should have limited my responses - at least in the number of words. I completely understand that you want to keep the Forum conversations on-topic. But I do not agree that "every other user here balances out negative posts with positive ones, argumentative posts with appreciative posts, informative posts with silly posts, etc." Is 'balanced posting' required to post within the Forum? While some of my posts are lengthy, repetitive, and/or passionate, they are substantive and on-topic -- not what I would classify as "trolly".

 

Could you please clarify what you mean by "trolly" behavior and "act more normally"? Thanks for your time.

 

If you don't think you've been trolly here and can't tell from people's reactions to your posts that your endless and ongoing Star Wars rant posts are generally met negatively then I don't know what to tell you.  I have no interest in having any sort of debate with you and you are still free to continue your rants in this thread, in which you are sure to get all the replies you desire, clearly, as we approach 100 (!) pages.

[Mattris 416]

On 01/04/2019 at 4:32 PM, Remco said:

About your analysis, it seems you're not aware of what a phrase exactly is and the way you seem to divide Rey's theme first 4 bars in 4 'phrases' makes no sense

 

As you realized, I was referring to small groupings of notes in the first four measures of the Rey's Theme and The Emperor's Theme.

 

First grouping: The second note of each theme is higher than the first; CORRECTION: The third is lower than the second note.

 

On 01/04/2019 at 4:32 PM, Remco said:

No, the third note of Emperor's theme is the same as the first. Both start with a minor third, I'll give you that.

 

Second grouping: Rey's Theme contains three ascending notes. The Emperor's Theme contains three descending notes.

 

On 01/04/2019 at 4:32 PM, Remco said:

I count two (ascending notes) in the second bar of Rey's Theme, not three. This is pointless anyway, because its seems you're making a division in her theme that isn't there: the first two bars are part of the same phrase.

 

The first note in the second grouping of Rey's Theme is a pick-up. So with the two notes in the second bar, it's three notes in total.

 

Third grouping: Rey's single note is followed by three descending note which start higher than the first. The Emperor's Theme is the same notes as in the first phrase.

 

On 01/04/2019 at 4:32 PM, Remco said:

I don't see the point here.

 

I wasn't trying to make one.

 

Fourth grouping: Both themes end with two isolated notes, with the second lower than the first. (When repeating, the Emperor's Theme often includes a third note.)

 

On 01/04/2019 at 4:32 PM, Remco said:

Assuming you mean the upbeat leading to the first note of the fourth bar. You know what, a melody can go up or down, and in this case the melodies both go down around the fourth bar but it's not the same interval – and also, the themes don't even end there, as I've explained above.

 

Yes, that's what I meant. Both themes' have two isolated notes that end at count 1 of bar 4, with the second note lower than the first.

[Mattris 416]

6 hours ago, Jay said:

@Mattris, you've shown me no reason in your time here on this site that you are not here for the sole purpose of arguing and debating with people about Star Wars, because you don't like the franchise any more.  There is nothing wrong with having that viewpoint and there is nothing wrong with debating topics back and forth on a message board, but every other user here balances out negative posts with positive ones, argumentative posts with appreciative posts, informative posts with silly posts, etc.  As a result I moved ALL your posts from here into the Disenchantment thread even the ones specifically about Episode 9.  If you want to be a contributing member of our forums, you're going to have to act more normally and less trolly and argumentative.  If you don't want to do that then I'm afraid I'm going to request that you do 100% of your posting in the disenchantment thread until you can prove that you deserve to be let out of it.  Even if you want to reply to this message, do it in that thread.  Thank you.

 

Hi @Jay I agree that off-topic posts should be in other threads (like this one). But I want to bring attention to the fact that I had largely remained on-topic in the Episode IX thread, contributing a well-thought-out plot theory, and only responding to - or expanding on - other members' off-topic/negative posts. I even mentioned that I was more hopeful and excited for the franchise and film.

 

While my posts are sometimes long-winded and/or repetitive, they are substantive. While remaining on-topic, I cannot be a troll. When someone says something with which I disagree, I choose to explain why, but I can certainly make an effort to be less argumentative. The fact that my "posts are generally met negatively" is not my fault since I cannot control other members' reactions. I do not appreciate being called out when other members continually attack, demean, and criticize me for having a different opinion than them.

 

I want to feel welcome here. When the conversation got out of hand last year, I remember you had to remind everyone to be respectful. I appreciate that you did that, but it seems that some might need another reminder. All the best.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Ya just gotta accept that Star Wars is a girly franchise like Twilight, Fifty Shades of Grey and Pitch Perfect now.

 

Us dudes, or more specifically us straight white blokes, we're just obsolete now. We're all gonna die soon, as the progrethive Gen-Zs and their automation overlords, Universal Basic Incomes and their Alexandria Ocasio-Cortezes will rise to rule the world. And Star Wars will become a more incluthive and politically correct franchise that women, racial minorities and the disabled will finally be able to call their own.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

3 hours ago, Mattris said:

 

First grouping: The second note of each theme is higher than the first; the third is lower than the first.

 

"The third note of Emperor's theme is the same as the first" but it's still lower than the first.

 

No, the third note of the Emperor's theme is not lower than the first note. It is the same:

 

They are both G.

 

I don't know where you got the idea that JW would have deliberately put the Emperor's theme in Rey's theme. It's so unlikely, so out of the realm of possibility that I truly think you're either trolling or delusional. Rey has nothing to do with the Emperor. She never has and never will. JJ Abrams did not create a master plan. He opened his box of toys and started playing, then handed the toys over to Rian Johnson. Rian smashed a few bits which upset the onlookers but he handed them back and here we are.

 

 

[Mattris 416]

I corrected my post. I meant, "the third is lower than the second note."

 

I can assure you, I'm not trolling. Regardless of what anyone says, I simply don't buy the 'no master plan' thing. All of the character and plot elements in the films (and other canon material) pointing to an Emperor reveal in IX is most certainly not 'delusion'. I sincerely hope I'm right. If only because I cannot imagine a more fulfilling conclusion to the entire saga.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

When the movie comes out and there isn't even a mention of Palpatine and you hate it, that's gonna be on you. If you set up these kinds of unrealistic expectations (i.e. far-fetched and bizarrely specific theories) then there is no hope in the world that the film will meet those expectations. It will not be Disney's fault, or Kathleen Kennedy's or Rian Johnson's. It will be yours.

[Mattris 416]

My 'expectation' is that Lucasfilm justifies the existence of this trilogy in the context of the saga... because as of now, it seems like it's the last minute of American Graffiti.

 

If IX comes out and there isn't even a mention of Palpatine... and a significant percentage of fans are dissatisfied and feel that sequel trilogy was ultimately unfulfilling, that's gonna be on Disney, Kathleen Kennedy, and JJ Abrams. There is nothing "unrealistic", "far-fetched", or "bizarrely specific" about the most powerful Dark Side villain of the saga - who could (possibly) create life & spoke about cheating death - revealing in the final film of the saga that what happened since his 'death' was his plan all along.

 

"You will find that it is you who are mistaken about a great many things."

"Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design."

"It was I who allowed..."

"You, like your father, are now... mine."

 

Unless Luke Skywalker and/or Han Solo are brought back in the flesh somehow*, I seriously doubt JJ has come up with a better ending to it all. But I'd love to be proven wrong... or (at least partially) right in regards to my theory. And in addition to all the 'Emperor hints' in the canon material, John Williams used The Emperor's Theme as Rey was being tortured in TLJ. Just another coincidence... or a 'deliberate creative decision'?

 

 

* "not unless you can alter time, speed up the harvest, or teleport me off this rock"

[Arpy 4,145]

In my mind, Palpatine's dead, gone, done and dusted.

 

 

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Jesus Christ, it’s like talking to a picture of a wall. I give up mate, I’ll watch this trainwreck from afar. I’m looking forward to your in-depth analysis of how the Separatist motif is hidden in the March of the Resistance 

[Mattris 416]

So you gonna watch the sequel trilogy from afar?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Star Wars is so woke now. Any form of dissent will be viewed as an act of sexual violence and assault.

[Holko 9,499]

11 minutes ago, Docteur Qui said:

I’m looking forward to your in-depth analysis of how the Separatist motif is hidden in the March of the Resistance 

 

Well, actually...

 

duuuun duuuun dun-dun-duuuuun

duuun duuun dududun

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

7 minutes ago, Mattris said:

So you gonna watch the sequel trilogy from afar?

 

Nah I’ll be front and centre for the films, I’m just gonna stand back and watch you implode after the next one comes out and it doesn’t feature Chewbacca’s reunion with Yoda’s Force ghost even though some incel on YouTube found 59 clues pointing to its inevitability 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I'll be fuming if Episode 9 isn't as good as Godzilla: King of the Monsters.

[Mattris 416]

On 02/04/2019 at 1:34 AM, Docteur Qui said:

Nah I’ll be front and centre for the films, I’m just gonna stand back and watch you implode after the next one comes out and it doesn’t feature Chewbacca’s reunion with Yoda’s Force ghost even though some incel on YouTube found 59 clues pointing to its inevitability 

 

Like all fans, I just want a satisfying end to the trilogy and saga. If they manage to make an Episode IX that justifies the trilogy to the vast majority of Star Wars fans, I'll eat my hat.

 

In just the last week or so, you've said you won't "re-engage" on a previous topic, that you're "exhausted at [my] posts and attitude, that "the chip on [my] shoulder is staggering, and that you "give up mate".

 

Yet you keep re-engaging. Do you even know why you're posting in the Disenchantment topic?

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Because I’m addicted to pain, obviously.  

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

8 minutes ago, Docteur Qui said:

Because I’m addicted to pain, obviously.  

 

It runs deep. Share it with me!

[Remco 685]

10 hours ago, Mattris said:

As you realized, I was referring to small groupings of notes in the first four measures of the Rey's Theme and The Emperor's Theme.

 

It seems you made up these 'groupings' just to accommodate your own fantasies, but they have nothing to do with how the themes are actually written from a musical perspective. 

[Demodex 557]

Maybe Williams uses the Dark Side theme while Rey is tortured because Snoke is using the Dark Side of the Force?  

That's my theory. 

[Holko 9,499]

Or, because of the obvious parallel, that's what Rian temped it with?

[Chen G. 3,944]

I think it’s an intentional wink to the audience. I seem to recall that @Falstaft called it the most “intentionally self-referential” of Williams scores. That’s what I wager that moment is.

 

It’s Williams saying: “boy, this sure looks like the Emperor scene, doesn’t it, boys and girls?” just before the scene turns on itself.

[crumbs 14,305]

It's hardly the first time he's done such a thing in SW. He brought back a passage from ESB's The Duel note-for-note in ROTS for (probably) the same reasons. It was reminiscent of a similar confrontation elsewhere in the saga and fit the narrative to reprise it. 

[Chen G. 3,944]

In Revenge of the Sith it was a narrative choice.

 

Here its more tongue-in-cheek, I think. I seem to recall that Williams spoke of it.

[Fargo 297]

The biggest mistake this franchise made in the new trilogy was doing nothing new. I don't want a Resistance (Rebellion), a First Order (Empire), a Snoke (Palpatine) or any of it. Give us something new and unique to SW lore. Bring back the 'high fantasy in space' stuff - ASOIAF/Wheel of Time/LotR in space. Give us something evil to fight that isn't the Sith/Dark Side. Make the light & dark side join up to fight some outside force invading the galaxy. Give us full penetration. Just do anything new and exciting.

[Chen G. 3,944]

The real problem is that they made another trilogy: the series was - and will remain - perfectly complete without it. It was always kind of haphazard as a cycle (supposedly) telling one grand story, but the basic structure is there, and it ends in Return of the Jedi.

 

I did a narrative structure study on the matter. You can see that, as a cycle of works, it does tell a story in three acts, but the proportions are kind of off-kilter compared to the classic structure, both as a sextet or as a trilogy. Be that as it may, the structure is there, but the sequel triloy sits entirely outside of it. It happens after the climax - its redundant.

 

 

I did these for other cycles as well: The Harry Potter one, interestingly, looks like the original trilogy one, although much larger, and with Fantastic Beasts likewise sitting outside of the main structure. Marvel isn't really a cycle but an anthology, but everything between Iron Man and Endgame seems to sit within the right proportions. The Middle Earth/War of the Ring cycle also sits quite nicely on the textbook narrative structure.

 

 

On 4/2/2019 at 4:31 PM, Fargo said:

Give us full penetration

 

[Fabulin 3,510]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

The real problem is that they made another trilogy: the series was - and will remain - perfectly complete without it. It was always kind of haphazard as a cycle (supposedly) telling one grand story, but the basic structure is there, and it ends in Return of the Jedi.

They are not the only ones with this rather big problem:

"I did begin a story placed about 100 years after the Downfall, but it proved both sinister and depressing. Since we are dealing with Men, it is inevitable that we should be concerned with the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good. So that the people of Gondor in times of peace, justice and prosperity, would become discontented and restless — while the dynasts descended from Aragorn would become just kings and governors — like Denethor or worse. I found that even so early there was an outcrop of revolutionary plots, about a centre of secret Satanistic religion; while Gondorian boys were playing at being Orcs and going around doing damage. I could have written a 'thriller' about the plot and its discovery and overthrow — but it would have been just that. Not worth doing."
―from The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter to Colin Bailey

 

It is not impossible to solve, but imho the only real (read: moderately easy) options are:

1. the heroes reunite and defeat a similar evil again, while having new strengths (resources, allies) and weaknesses (old age, less motivation) (these same heroes, with a new generation as a support---so that the story continues smoothly)

2. an external threat outclassing both the previous one and the heroes appears, forcing everyone to unite with their former opponents

 

Passing the torch just doesn't really work in storytelling. People always ask what if Rocky or Captain Picard came back from retirement.

[Chen G. 3,944]

Yeah, the New Shadow example is exactly right: In both cases, the story had already reached its conclusion, making another entry an exercise in futility.

 

In fact, I'd argue that its even worse here because The New Shadow was probably going to be a short story that would've formed an epilogue of sorts. The sequel trilogy, on the other hand, doesn't really work as an epilogue either, because its shaping up to be longer than either previous trilogy!

 

 

[Mattris 416]

10 hours ago, Remco said:

It seems you made up these 'groupings' just to accommodate your own fantasies, but they have nothing to do with how the themes are actually written from a musical perspective. 

 

I recognized the structural similarities because they are present. You have no idea how Williams composed Rey's Theme.

 

9 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I think it’s an intentional wink to the audience. I seem to recall that @Falstaft called it the most “intentionally self-referential” of Williams scores. That’s what I wager that moment is.

 

It’s Williams saying: “boy, this sure looks like the Emperor scene, doesn’t it, boys and girls?” just before the scene turns on itself.

 

It would be very unlike Williams to use a specific character theme in a scene that has nothing to do with that character.

 

9 hours ago, crumbs said:

It's hardly the first time he's done such a thing in SW. He brought back a passage from ESB's The Duel note-for-note in ROTS for (probably) the same reasons. It was reminiscent of a similar confrontation elsewhere in the saga and fit the narrative to reprise it. 

 

'Burning Homestead' was reprised when Rey summoned the lightsaber at the end of in TFA. I don't see those as "similar" situations... and would have much preferred a newly-written cue.

 

6 hours ago, Fargo said:

The biggest mistake this franchise made in the new trilogy was doing nothing new. I don't want a Resistance (Rebellion), a First Order (Empire), a Snoke (Palpatine) or any of it. Give us something new and unique to SW lore. Bring back the 'high fantasy in space' stuff - ASOIAF/Wheel of Time/LotR in space. Give us something evil to fight that isn't the Sith/Dark Side. Make the light & dark side join up to fight some outside force invading the galaxy. Give us full penetration. Just do anything new and exciting.

 

Sounds great... for another SW film/trilogy/saga.

[Jay 37,323]

17 minutes ago, Mattris said:

'Burning Homestead' was reprised when Rey summoned the lightsaber at the end of in TFA. I don't see those as "similar" situations... and would have much preferred a newly-written cue.

 

Williams did write an original cue for that (it's on the OST album).  JJ Abrams rejected it and tracked in the 1977 recording of Burning Homestead in the final cut.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It is odd that Williams chose to score that particular moment so...understated? 

 

Burning Homestead stands out in the film though.

[Chen G. 3,944]

31 minutes ago, Mattris said:

It would be very unlike Williams to use a specific character theme in a scene that has nothing to do with that character.

 

Its a wink to the audience.

 

Its almost parodizing the scene; intentionally so.

[Tom 4,640]

This thread is more entertaining than 6 of the SW episodes and both anthology films. 

[John 2,032]

It’s a big clustercuss. 

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

I agree with Arpy. Palpatine is dead. He's out of the conversation in my mind. 

 

Not only did he fall down a massive shaft, resulting in a blue explosive whirlwind, but his corpse was annihilated after the fact when Death Star II blew up. He's not only dead, his body is unsalvageable.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

48 minutes ago, Mattris said:

It would be very unlike Williams to use a specific character theme in a scene that has nothing to do with that character.

 

 

 

Does this mean Lando's return in the upcoming film is to reveal that Yoda has been possessing him and guiding his way all these decades?

 

The fact of the matter is, we can play these six-degrees-of-separation games with the themes and their relations/significance to the characters and events on screen, but Williams approaches things from a dramatic viewpoint, moreso than anything else. Hasn't years of listening to "Ben's Death", or being a John Williams fan, taught all of us that?

 

And what's with these heavyweights in the thread acting like they know how to deconstruct music and go toe to toe with people who have proven they know what they're doing? I'll give a lot more credence to someone like Docteur Qui than Mattris here, I'll say that.

 

57 minutes ago, Mattris said:

You have no idea how Williams composed Rey's Theme

 

Do you?

 

26 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Its almost parodizing the scene; intentionally so.

 

I don't know how you reached this. Williams never said anything to lend any remote credence to this interpretation.

11 minutes ago, The Illustrious Jerry said:

I agree with Arpy. Palpatine is dead. He's out of the conversation in my mind. 

 

What I want to know is what exactly this cockamamie theory would do for people who want it to be true. What would it really "fix", what dimension would it add to these movies that you feel is lacking? A sense of connection to the other movies? I really just don't get it.