Star Wars Disenchantment

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

Exactly, Nick. And if people do want another character from the OT, such as Palpatine, to be involved in IX, why Sheev of all people?

[Jurassic Shark 12,055]

Because he's the coolest!

[John 2,032]

[Mattris 416]

3 hours ago, The Illustrious Jerry said:

I agree with Arpy. Palpatine is dead. He's out of the conversation in my mind. 

 

Not only did he fall down a massive shaft, resulting in a blue explosive whirlwind, but his corpse was annihilated after the fact when Death Star II blew up. He's not only dead, his body is unsalvageable.

I never suggested his body would be salvaged. But his 'life force' could have been preserved or moved to another being or place... and return.

 

3 hours ago, Nick Parker said:

Does this mean Lando's return in the upcoming film is to reveal that Yoda has been possessing him and guiding his way all these decades?

 

No. Yoda, a character featured in The Empire Strikes Back, told Luke that he might be able to help his friends ("Help them, you could.") As it turns out, it wasn't Luke who ended up helping Leia, Chewy, C-3PO, and Lando. It was R2-D2, who was brought to Cloud City by Luke, who learned that the Millennium Falcon's hyperdrive had been deactivated... and was able to engage it so that the gang could escape just in time.

 

3 hours ago, Nick Parker said:

The fact of the matter is, we can play these six-degrees-of-separation games with the themes and their relations/significance to the characters and events on screen, but Williams approaches things from a dramatic viewpoint, moreso than anything else. Hasn't years of listening to "Ben's Death", or being a John Williams fan, taught all of us that?

 

No six-degrees-of-separation needed. Ben sacrificed himself so that Luke and Princess Leia could escape. What's your point?

 

3 hours ago, Nick Parker said:

And what's with these heavyweights in the thread acting like they know how to deconstruct music and go toe to toe with people who have proven they know what they're doing? I'll give a lot more credence to someone like Docteur Qui than Mattris here, I'll say that.

 

I recognized a similarity between the two themes, which do exist, regardless of what anyone says... or if it was Williams' intention. I never claimed to be able to "go toe to toe" with anyone. So pleased to be classified as a 'heavyweight'!

 

3 hours ago, Nick Parker said:

Do you?

 

Re: knowing how Williams composed Rey's Theme. No, but neither do you... or Docteur Qui.

 

3 hours ago, Nick Parker said:

What I want to know is what exactly this cockamamie theory would do for people who want it to be true. What would it really "fix", what dimension would it add to these movies that you feel is lacking? A sense of connection to the other movies? I really just don't get it.

 

3 hours ago, The Illustrious Jerry said:

Exactly, Nick. And if people do want another character from the OT, such as Palpatine, to be involved in IX, why Sheev of all people?

 

Sheev Palpatine was not just "another character from the OT". He was the lead baddy of both trilogies.

 

In the PT, Palaptine was the phantom menace who deceived the Senate, clouded the Jedi's vision, seduced Anakin to the Dark Side, and plotted to take over the galaxy. He played the long game... and succeeded. In Episode III, he spoke about creating life and cheating death. In the new canon material Palpatine was revealed to have had a 'Contingency' plan. Among other elements, involved:

 

- Destroying certain planets so they would not fall into the hands of the enemy

- If unable to defeat the Rebelion, Imperial survivors, leaders, and those sympathetic to the Empire were instructed to retreat to the Unknown Regions of the galaxy to secretly regroup... and to exact revenge: the destruction on the New Republic

- A station on Jakku (of all the planets in the galaxy), personally arranged by Palpatine, himself

 

It follows that Palpatine's plan would still be in effect during the events of this new trilogy.

[Chen G. 3,949]

Yoda’s theme is also used when Lando orders evacuation, where it’s narrativelly entirely out of place. It’s just used there because the tune fits dramatically, and you can find stuff like that in other Star Wars scores and other Williams scores.

[Mattris 416]

Yes,@Nick Parker referenced that use of Yoda's Theme. As I explained above, it's use was appropriate and relevant. Williams use of 'unrelated' themes is extremely rare.

[Remco 685]

2 hours ago, Nick Parker said:

And what's with these heavyweights in the thread acting like they know how to deconstruct music and go toe to toe with people who have proven they know what they're doing? I'll give a lot more credence to someone like Docteur Qui than Mattris here, I'll say that.

 

 

If you’re referring to me, I was just trying to rationally analyse both themes to show how Mattris’ view is sort of delusional - but it seems he can’t be convinced. I’m not a music theorist but I know some basic things even if I can’t express it as eloquently as someone else maybe could.

[Mattris 416]

@Chen G. could you please copy-paste your Episode IX theory/treatment here?

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Yoda’s theme is also used when Lando orders evacuation, where it’s narrativelly entirely out of place. It’s just used there because the tune fits dramatically, and you can find stuff like that in other Star Wars scores and other Williams scores.

 

That's one of my favorite parts from the Special Editions, when Lando makes his announcement on the PA system and they cut to people stopping in the corridor and listening like in Star Trek V. Then they show a huge crowd of people just listening attentively to Lando's speech.

 

When they built the set, it's very confined. It's a small set. Now we've opened it up so you can really see the city beyond and that sort of thing.

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

So if a Force-sensitive person's life force can be transferred to another living being, therefore salvaging the person's life force and possessing, essentially, another, why does it even matter than Jedi and Sith die? 

 

Mattris, not only are you incredibly bitter about VIII, your predictions and hopes for IX are preposterous. Maybe Star Wars is no longer pleasing you because of these unrealistic theories you create.

[Mattris 416]

Since he spoke about 'the power to cheat death' in Episode III, I theorize that Palpatine could have transferred his life force to another being or stored it somehow. The Jedi have the potential to interact with those who are living (as Force ghost), so does it matter if they die? The power to cheat death would be the Dark Side equivalent.

 

On the contrary, I haven't been this hopeful for the sequel trilogy since pre-TFA. My predictions and hopes for IX are not "preposterous" or "unrealistic" in the slightest. Why would Lucasfilm have introduced numerous Jakku and Palpatine elements in canon if they weren't related? (For crying out loud, Palaptine personally set-up a Contingency on Jakku!)

 

If a better (and relevant) finale for the saga is possible, I haven't thought of it... and I don't think anyone else can either, including JJ.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

32 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Since he spoke about 'the power to cheat death' in Episode III, I theorized that Palpatine could have transferred his life force to another being or stored in somehow. The Jedi have the potential to interact with those who are living (as Force ghost), so does it matter if they die? The power to cheat death would be the Dark Side equivalent.

 

On the contrary, I haven't been this hopeful for the sequel trilogy since pre-TFA. My predictions and hopes for IX are not "preposterous" or "unrealistic" in the slightest. Why would Lucasfilm have introduced numerous Jakku and Palpatine elements in canon if they weren't related? (For crying out loud, Palaptine personally set-up a Contingency on Jakku!)

 

If a better (and relevant) finale for the saga is possible, I haven't thought of it... and I don't anyone else can either, including JJ.

 

This is gold!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

5 hours ago, Mattris said:

I never suggested his body would be salvaged. But his 'life force' could have been preserved or moved to another being or place... and return.

 

Oh that's like Anubis in Stargate SG-1. He's a half-ascended Goa'uld who needs to keep his non-corporeal "body" within a special cloak-like garment. But when his mothership is blown up with him onboard at the end of Season 7, his "ghost" floats down to the SGC and begins inhabiting/possessing people like a parasite. He was essentially unkillable. It was pretty cool!

[Chen G. 3,949]

Besides all other arguments, does anyone really think that such a major plot point in IX would revolve around a throwback to the prequel trilogy? One, the writers of these films have been very frugal with their use of prequel references, for fear (and not an entirely unjustifiable one) of alienating audience members that scourn those films. Two, that means that the audience's understanding of the plot of a film released in December 2019 will hinge upon people's memory of a moment in a film released in summer 2005.

 

I'm sorry @Mattris but its just not going to happen.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

30 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Besides all other arguments, does anyone really think that such a major plot point in IX would revolve around a throwback to the prequel trilogy? One, the writers of these films have been very frugal with their use of prequel references, for fear (and not an entirely unjustifiable one) of alienating audience members that scourn those films. Two, that means that the audience's understanding of the plot of a film released in December 2019 will hinge upon people's memory of a moment in a film released in summer 2005.

 

I'm sorry @Mattris but its just not going to happen.

 

Don't people re-watch these movies repeatedly?

[Demodex 557]

I don't think there'd be a problem referring back to that moment.  That's not a problem I have with the theory.  The problem I have is that I'm pretty sure Palpatine's contingency plan was ruined by the New Republic and other characters in the novel. 

I think the only reason Jakku is in the novels is to explain why there's a ruined Star Destroyer and AT-AT on Jakku.  Because Star Wars fans seem to want to know the backstory of everything in the movies. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

Besides all other arguments, does anyone really think that such a major plot point in IX would revolve around a throwback to the prequel trilogy? One, the writers of these films have been very frugal with their use of prequel references, for fear (and not an entirely unjustifiable one) of alienating audience members that scourn those films. Two, that means that the audience's understanding of the plot of a film released in December 2019 will hinge upon people's memory of a moment in a film released in summer 2005.

 

I'm sorry @Mattris but its just not going to happen.

 

Chen: Bringer Of Common Sense!

[Fargo 297]

The novels are just glorified fan fiction, anyway. I don't consider then canon, no matter what Kathleen Kennedy says.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

The novels were better when George Lucas still ran things. There was a clear separation between the Canon (movies) and EU (everything else).

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I'll have to see if there are any Star Wars/X-Files crossover fanfics.

[Mattris 416]

10 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Besides all other arguments, does anyone really think that such a major plot point in IX would revolve around a throwback to the prequel trilogy? One, the writers of these films have been very frugal with their use of prequel references, for fear (and not an entirely unjustifiable one) of alienating audience members that scourn those films. Two, that means that the audience's understanding of the plot of a film released in December 2019 will hinge upon people's memory of a moment in a film released in summer 2005.

 

I'm sorry @Mattris but its just not going to happen.

 

The 'opera scene' from Episode III is among the most-liked of all Prequel moments in numerous rankings:

 

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-prequel-movies-secretly-great-scenes/

https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/star-wars-best-scenes-prequels.html/

https://www.looper.com/104411/star-wars-prequel-trilogy-moments-actually-good/

 

These films have been very frugal with Prequel references on purpose to throw people off the scent.

 

I doubt anyone 'scorns' Palpatine. They understand that he was evil as hell... and would remember that scene, in particular.

 

It will happen @Chen G. ... or this sequel trilogy will not be remembered well at all.

 

9 hours ago, dougie said:

Don't people re-watch these movies repeatedly?

 

Yes, many do... especially Revenge of the Sith, which is many fans' favorite Star Wars film.... and many mores' favorite since the OT.

 

9 hours ago, Demodex said:

I don't think there'd be a problem referring back to that moment.  That's not a problem I have with the theory.  The problem I have is that I'm pretty sure Palpatine's contingency plan was ruined by the New Republic and other characters in the novel. 

I think the only reason Jakku is in the novels is to explain why there's a ruined Star Destroyer and AT-AT on Jakku.  Because Star Wars fans seem to want to know the backstory of everything in the movies. 

 

As easily as you can say you're "pretty sure" Palpatine's contingency plan was ruined, I'm "pretty sure" it's still 'on' -- very much so.

 

Palpatine personally arranged the first stages of his Contingency long before The Battle of Jakku. Why was ridiculously-Force-strong (main protagonist) Rey from Jakku, of all the planets in the galaxy?

 

The main 'backstory' of this trilogy and its characters still needs to be told. It's 'fan acceptance factor' rests on it.

 

7 hours ago, Fargo said:

The novels are just glorified fan fiction, anyway. I don't consider then canon, no matter what Kathleen Kennedy says.

 

The writers of the new material (novels, comics, games, etc.) collaborate with the Lucasfilm Story Group. All of it is canon, regardless of how you "consider" it.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Mattris, even since 99 the Prequels have been largely scorned and ridiculed by not only a large portion of the fanbase, but regular film goers as well. They destroyed Lucas' reputation as a film maker.

 

Disney aren't going to lean into them.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

They should though. They're just better.

[Fargo 297]

19 minutes ago, Mattris said:

These films have been very frugal with Prequel references on purpose to throw people off the scent.

 

It's comments like this that make people think you're just trolling. 

[Mattris 416]

1 minute ago, Stefancos said:

Mattris, even since 99 the Prequels have been largely scorned and ridiculed by not only a large portion of the fanbase, but regular film goers as well. They destroyed Lucas' reputation as a film maker.

 

Disney aren't going to lean into them.

 

But one can probably count on one hand the number of people who scorn Ian McDiarmid and his character. For most fans, Palpatine was among the best things about the Prequels.

 

Disney 'leaning' into that scene in particular would tie the saga films together in a significant way. Quite frankly, I don't think another way exists.

 

 

1 minute ago, Fargo said:

It's comments like this that make people think you're just trolling. 

 

Do you really think I would type tens-of-thousands of words (in hundreds of posts) if I were "just trolling"? I suggest you come up with an alternative IX theory, a substantive argument against mine, or contribute to other topics on the Forum. Otherwise, you are the troll.

 

 

 

While I'm at it, Rey's Theme also has similarities to Darth Vader's Theme. One video explaining it:

 

 

The video features "The Scavenger", but "Rey's Theme" contains numerous references, including its introduction motif.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I quite liked the Anakin Reincarnated as Rey theory. I think even Plinkett mentioned it once.

[Demodex 557]

31 minutes ago, dougie said:

They should though. They're just better.

 

Oh hell no

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Just now, Demodex said:

 

Oh hell no

 

You're just not a real fan unless you prefer the prequels to the originals, the sequels and the spin-offs.

[Fargo 297]

25 minutes ago, Mattris said:

I suggest you come up with an alternative IX theory, a substantive argument against mine, or contribute to other topics on the Forum. Otherwise, you are the troll.

 

To argue against your theory would be to argue against someone just grasping at straws. You want my theory? Here:

 

1. Resistance beats the First Order. Probably by blowing up a big ship.

2. Ben turns to the light side

3. The following people die: Poe, Lando, Hux, Leia

4. Nary a mention of Palpatine, Plagueis, Sith

5. Rey's parents are still nobodies

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

1 minute ago, Fargo said:

1. Resistance beats the First Order. Probably by blowing up a big ship.

2. Ben turns to the light side

3. The following people die: Poe, Lando, Hux, Leia

4. Nary a mention of Palpatine, Plagueis, Sith

5. Rey's parents are still nobodies

 

Sounds like a winner!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Sounds boring. Can't they bring back that hammy old fart from the prequels?

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

The prequels had THX mastering, Ben Burtt sound design, veteran actors like Ian McDiarmid, Christopher Lee and Liam Neeson, superior Doug Chiang production design and Natalie Portman.

[Demodex 557]

I love Natalie, but she was awful in the prequels. 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

2 minutes ago, Demodex said:

I love Natalie, but she was awful in the prequels. 

 

You're breaking my heart.

[Demodex 557]

Am I going down a path you can't follow?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

2 minutes ago, Demodex said:

Am I going down a path you can't follow?

 

You see? You can do it.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I call it acting.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I call it aggressive negotiations.

[leeallen01 2,136]

15 hours ago, dougie said:

 

Oh that's like Anubis in Stargate SG-1. He's a half-ascended Goa'uld who needs to keep his non-corporeal "body" within a special cloak-like garment. But when his mothership is blown up with him onboard at the end of Season 7, his "ghost" floats down to the SGC and begins inhabiting/possessing people like a parasite. He was essentially unkillable. It was pretty cool!

 

Nothing to say in response. Just appreciate the SG1 reference. 

 

 

Carry on. 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

2 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

 

Nothing to say in response. Just appreciate the SG1 reference. 

 

 

Carry on. 

 

If there's any franchise I know better than Star Wars, Godzilla, The X-Files and even Star Trek, then it's definitely Stargate.

[leeallen01 2,136]

Indeed. Stargate will always be my number 1 Sci-fi. And joint number 1 show overall alongside Buffy. 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Oh I love Buffy. Like I really, really love Buffy.

[leeallen01 2,136]

15 minutes ago, dougie said:

Oh I love Buffy. Like I really, really love Buffy.

 

 

 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

It's Angel and the lady who wouldn't pay for the slightly late pizzas in Spider-Man 2.

[John 2,032]

Pizza time. 

[Mattris 416]

1 hour ago, Fargo said:

To argue against your theory would be to argue against someone just grasping at straws. You want my theory? Here:

 

1. Resistance beats the First Order. Probably by blowing up a big ship.

2. Ben turns to the light side

3. The following people die: Poe, Lando, Hux, Leia

4. Nary a mention of Palpatine, Plagueis, Sith

5. Rey's parents are still nobodies

 

None of those events warrant the existence of a Sequel Trilogy or would result in a "satisfying" conclusion to the Star Wars Saga.

 

Palpatine spoke of cheating death and creating life... hardly "grasping at straws". Add in all the other evidence that I've laid out, and my Palpatine theory is bullet-proof. His plan/presence in the Sequel Trilogy would explain:

 

-  the status of the galaxy at the beginning of the trilogy

-  the numerous Jakku-related events/characters

-  Rey's origin and motivations

-  the numerous coincidences, conveniences, and contrivances within VII and VIII

-  why First Order "programmed from birth" Finn 'snapped' on Jakku (after having no prior disciplinary issues) and  become obsessed with finding/helping Rey

 

... and would confirm the Palpatine/Vader/Rey thematic similarities.

[Fargo 297]

2 minutes ago, Mattris said:

None of those events warrant the existence of a Sequel Trilogy or would result in a "satisfying" conclusion to the Star Wars Saga.

 

Exactly. And yet here we are. I hope it'll be a good movie and give a good ending to this nine-film 'Skywalker Saga'. You don't need Sheev coming back to do that.

[Mattris 416]

A 'good' ending to the saga without Palpatine... unlikely. His presence/involvement could make it great. Otherwise, why was the sequel trilogy made?

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

[Mattris 416]

You do know that Disney only got about 60% of the box office revenue, right? TFA cost at least half a billion dollars to produce and market.

 

Disney purchased Lucasfilm for $4.05B about seven years ago. Please present factual evidence that they have made back their investment.