Star Wars Disenchantment

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

You know you'll hear "Paul is dead" if you play Qui-Gon's Funeral backwards.

[Mattris 416]

On 07/04/2019 at 8:50 PM, Demodex said:

I've don't think I've ever heard that Vader motif before.

 

On 07/04/2019 at 8:32 PM, Falstaft said:

 

Thanks for creating this @Falstaft. At 1:01 of "The Ways Of The Force", the low brass play the Vader Motif exactly: four notes, starting at the first C (count 4 on that staff).

 

On 07/04/2019 at 8:51 PM, Manakin Skywalker said:

Again, you have no proof that that exchange ever took place, or that JJ ever had that idea. You're just making this stuff up in your head based on a couple notes in a piece of music. Don't you think there's even the slightest chance that you're simply wrong? Or are you really that naïve?

 

For a simplified version of Rey's Theme, listen to "The Scavenger". Starting @ 3:16 of is the Reflective Motif (the ending section of her theme), which is a variation of Darth Vader's Theme, more specifically, the Vader Motif. The last 4 notes @ 3:26 (descending D, B, G, E, and finally that same B) are the Vader Motif, with the second to last note omitted (the same D as the first note). In its place, a space, signifying the uncertainty of Rey's fate. But she was likely 'born of the Force' just like Anakin.

 

Are you really that naïve to think that John Williams composed her theme this way by accident?

 

On 08/04/2019 at 2:49 AM, Manakin Skywalker said:

I don't hear it at all. Nor do I hear the Emperor's theme.

 

After Darth Vader's Theme at the end of Rey's Theme (minus one note), the first two notes (the same minor third interval) of The Emperor's Theme at the beginning is just the icing on the cake. Again, do you honestly think Williams did this completely by chance? If so, I can't help you.

[Demodex 557]

@Mattris

I'm not hearing anything similar to Vader's theme in Rey's theme.   I'm not sure that Vader's motif is even a thing since I've never heard of it before.  Cam you give an example of where it can be heard in the OT?

[Quintus 5,399]

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

 

 

Thanks for creating this @Falstaft. At 1:01 of "The Ways Of The Force", the low brass play the Vader Motif exactly: four notes, starting at the first C (count 4 on that staff).

 

 

For a simplified version of Rey's Theme, listen to "The Scavenger". Starting @ 3:16 of is the Reflective Motif (the ending section of her theme), which is a variation of Darth Vader's Theme, more specifically, the Vader Motif. The last 4 notes @ 3:26 (descending D, B, G, and finally that same B) are the Vader Motif, with the second to last note omitted (the same D as the first note). In its place, a space, signifying the uncertainty of Rey's fate. But she was likely 'born of the Force' just like Anakin.

 

Are you really that naïve to think that John Williams composed her theme this way by accident?

 

 

After Darth Vader's Theme at the end of Rey's Theme (minus one note), the first two notes (the same minor third interval) of The Emperor's Theme at the beginning is just the icing on the cake. Again, do you honestly think Williams did this completely by chance? If so, I can't help you.

 

You're arguing about two notes though. They've about as much chance of being selected as the first two notes of dies irae. 

[Chen G. 3,943]

37 minutes ago, Demodex said:

I'm not hearing anything similar to Vader's theme in Rey's theme. 

 

Isn't Rey's theme constructed as a counterpart to Kylo Ren's material? That could explain how some echoes of the Vader material ended up there.

 

10 hours ago, Nick Parker said:

Was the Resistance another ploy created by Palpatine in another long-con siege of power?

 

Why are you saying such ridiculous things? The answer could not be more clear and simple:

 

10 hours ago, Falstaft said:

Other leitmotifs which begin by outlining a minor thirds[...]Death Star Motif

 

Rey's obviously an incarnate form of the Death Star!

 

That's why Rogue One focused on the Death Star, you see. Its all part of a plan, I tell you! John Williams' plan, of course: clearly, as he composed the Death Star motif in 1977, he had in his mind a story about a young orphan who doesn't know she's an incarnation of the Death Star, and when the time was right and that pesky Lucas was out of the way, he ordered Kathleen Kennedy to create a trilogy secretly centered around that concept.

 

Surely, in IX, she'll turn into Starkiller base and blow-up The First Order. A great throwback to The Force Awakens, the trilogy comes full circle, audiences all around the world would be in tears at the majesty of the sight, and there you have it, a 3-billion dollar movie!

[Manakin Skywalker 4,890]

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

Again, do you honestly think Williams did this completely by chance?

Yes, because he does it all the time.

[Score 770]

2 hours ago, Mattris said:

 

 

At 1:01 of "The Ways Of The Force", the low brass play the Vader Motif exactly: four notes, starting at the first C (count 4 on that staff).

 

 

... except that it is wrong. The notes you are referring to (as written down by @Falstaft ) are C A Eb C. The Vader Motif, in that key, would be C Ab Eb C. Surely you are not implying that JW, when quoting Vader's motif to deliver his hidden messages, made a mistake?

3 hours ago, Mattris said:

For a simplified version of Rey's Theme, listen to "The Scavenger". Starting @ 3:16 of is the Reflective Motif (the ending section of her theme), which is a variation of Darth Vader's Theme, more specifically, the Vader Motif. The last 4 notes @ 3:26 (descending D, B, G, and finally that same B) are the Vader Motif, with the second to last note omitted (the same D as the first note). In its place, a space, signifying the uncertainty of Rey's fate.

 

 

... except that you are wrong. If you are referring to the melody played by the flute, that fragment is G F# F# (one octave down) D B (then it goes to E). Nothing to do with the Darth Vader motif, which in that key would be B G D B.

[Quintus 5,399]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

 

Isn't Rey's theme constructed as a counterpart to Kylo Ren's material? That could explain how some echoes of the Vader material ended up there.

 

 

Why are you saying such ridiculous things? The answer could not be more clear and simple:

 

 

Rey's obviously an incarnate form of the Death Star!

 

That's why Rogue One focused on the Death Star, you see. Its all part of a plan, I tell you! John Williams' plan, of course: clearly, as he composed the Death Star motif in 1977, he had in his mind a story about a young orphan who doesn't know she's an incarnation of the Death Star, and when the time was right and that pesky Lucas was out of the way, he ordered Kathleen Kennedy to create a trilogy secretly centered around that concept.

 

Surely, in IX, she'll turn into Starkiller base and blow-up The First Order. A great throwback to The Force Awakens, the trilogy comes full circle, audiences all around the world would be in tears at the majesty of the sight, and there you have it, a 3-billion dollar movie!

 

Sounds like the typical plot of a Nolan Star Wars trilogy. 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

People gettin jacked in this movie. But, hey. You know. It's a Star Wars movie.

[Mattris 416]

On 08/04/2019 at 4:49 AM, Demodex said:

@Mattris

I'm not hearing anything similar to Vader's theme in Rey's theme.   I'm not sure that Vader's motif is even a thing since I've never heard of it before.  Cam you give an example of where it can be heard in the OT?

 

Not hearing anything similar to Vader's Theme in Rey's Theme? That was John Williams' intent. The vast majority of people won't hear it unless specifically told to listen for it. Since Rey's fate and origin is uncertain, he is not going to spoon-feed it to us like he did at the end of Anakin's Theme.

 

The Vader's motif was first introduced in The Imperial March. Listen to the brass melody at 0:12. After the three repetitive base notes of the Vader's Motif is the following: down a major third, up a major firth, and then down a minor third. That is the Vader's motif I'm referring to.

 

On 07/04/2019 at 2:51 PM, Chen G. said:

In a completely and utterly different situation to this.

John Williams didn't need Lucas to tell him that Anakin becomes Vader. It was a given from the moment the prequels were concieved.

The same is not true of Rey's supposed identity.

  20 hours ago, Mattris said:

Her theme would not have been composed randomly. That's not John Williams' style.

It so is.

 

On 08/04/2019 at 5:15 AM, Manakin Skywalker said:

Yes, because he does it all the time.

 

On 08/04/2019 at 4:52 AM, Quintus said:

You're arguing about two notes though. They've about as much chance of being selected as the first two notes of dies irae. 

 

Wrong. John Williams never composes haphazardly or by chance. As one of the best composers who ever lived, and with a complete mastery of music theory and overall music knowledge, everything he writes is fully intended and specifically chosen for a reason. It's sad to think anyone believes otherwise.

 

On 07/04/2019 at 6:08 AM, Chen G. said:

I think its ignorant to the way in which Williams works, too. The Anakin example is really quite unusual in the maestro's body of work, because he was scoring a prequel. So, without watching a minute of the finished film, Williams knew the traejectory of the story and could compose with that in mind.

 

Williams doesn't read scripts. He just watches the finished film. He has no additional information to go on than you, me or @Mattris have.

 

My point is that JJ knew where he wanted Rey's story to go. Knowing the importance of this particular character - who would have their own prominent theme... and a full 3 minute concert work -  and as a long-time fan who he greatly respected, JJ told John Williams so he could compose her theme accordingly.

 

On 08/04/2019 at 6:35 AM, Score said:

... except that you are wrong. If you are referring to the melody played by the flute, that fragment is G F# F# (one octave down) D B (then it goes to E). Nothing to do with the Darth Vader motif, which in that key would be B G D B.

 

You missed the fact that I completely understand what he did with "The Scavenger", which features the Vader Motif at the very end. The last 4 notes @ 3:26 -- descending D, B, G, E, and finally that same B after a space. So as not to literally play the Vader Motif, the second to last note was omitted, which would have been the same D as the first note.

 

On 08/04/2019 at 6:35 AM, Score said:

... except that it is wrong. The notes you are referring to (as written down by @Falstaft ) are C A Eb C. The Vader Motif, in that key, would be C Ab Eb C. Surely you are not implying that JW, when quoting Vader's motif to deliver his hidden messages, made a mistake?

 

Of course, he did not make a mistake. He changed one note (a half-step) so as not to be on-the-nose with the Vader reference... just as he did with the flute's opening notes of Rey's Theme (track 6) as it appears on the soundtrack, which opens with a minor third rise... then from the opening note, down a major fourth, instead of a major third, like the Vader motif.

 

Within the score for The Force Awakens (or at least within the selections on the soundtrack), John Williams never outright presented the Vader Theme/Motif. He quoted the motif by adding notes before it, after it, within it, and (in the case of "The Scavenger") subtracting a note, to make the 'message' more hidden... but it was most certainly by design.

 

Anyone who has a basic understanding of music theory/composition... but disagrees with my assessment, is selling Mr. Williams short... and he has tricked you. Once you see Episode IX and hear his score, I truly hope you all will understand his intentions, which should result in an even greater appreciation of his music. Though hopefully you can come to the realization before then!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

.

[Holko 9,499]

 

[Demodex 557]

This is ridiculous. 

[Score 770]

Ok, he is 100% a troll. I thought he might truly believe in some of the nonsense he was saying about the musical intervals, hence I bothered to reply. It's now obvious that he's just trolling and laughing at us. I should have realized that in advance - my bad. 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

This is the heyday, the golden age of Jedi that exists in what we have now in Episode II.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

3 minutes ago, Score said:

Ok, he is 100% a troll. I thought he might truly believe in some of the nonsense he was saying about the musical intervals, hence I bothered to reply. It's now obvious that he's just trolling and laughing at us. I should have realized that in advance - my bad. 

 

Oh no, he believes what he says. Therein lies the rub.

[John 2,032]

55 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Anyone who has a basic understanding of music theory/composition... but disagrees with my assessment, is selling Mr. Williams short... and he has tricked you. Once you see Episode IX and hear his score, I truly hope you all will understand his intentions, which will result in an even greater appreciation of his music. Though hopefully you can come to the realization before then!

 

[Holko 9,499]

At this point he's the equivalent of an antivaxxer flatearther.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Mattris now has a knowledge and understanding of the Force John Williams that dwarves that of anyone else! We must trust in him and ralley behind him! Star Wars and John Williams will be made whole!

[Quintus 5,399]

12 minutes ago, Score said:

Ok, he is 100% a troll. I thought he might truly believe in some of the nonsense he was saying about the musical intervals, hence I bothered to reply. It's now obvious that he's just trolling and laughing at us. I should have realized that in advance - my bad. 

 

I agree with this, his latest post makes it obvious that it's some sort of massive wind up. In which case, it's brilliant! All of it!

[Nick Parker 3,040]

2 minutes ago, Quintus said:

 

I agree with this, his latest post makes it obvious that it's some sort of massive wind up. In which case, it's brilliant! All of it!

 

Boy, that would be one hell of a role to play for over a year!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

17 minutes ago, Score said:

Ok, he is 100% a troll. I thought he might truly believe in some of the nonsense he was saying about the musical intervals, hence I bothered to reply. It's now obvious that he's just trolling and laughing at us. I should have realized that in advance - my bad. 

 

 

[publicist 4,643]

Except he doesn't.

[Quintus 5,399]

There's no way a person could be this persistently deluded though. They'd have to coin a whole new term for it: Clinically Thick. 

[Chen G. 3,943]

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

Wrong. John Williams never composes haphazardly or by chance. As one of the best composers who ever lived, and with a complete mastery of music theory and overall music knowledge, everything he writes is fully intended and specifically chosen for a reason. It's sad to think anyone believes otherwise.

 

 

He doesn't write haphazardly: he writes intuitively.

 

He watches the movie (and does nothing but watch the movie) and writes music to accentuate (or contrast) the emotion that the scenes make him feel. That's a great way to compose film scores.

 

The kind of "prescient" writing style you refer to is more befitting of a Howard Shore score.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

2 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

He doesn't write haphazardly: he writes intuitively.

 

He watches the movie (and does nothing but watch the movie) and writes music to accentuate (or contrast) the emotion that the scenes make him feel. That's a great way to compose film scores.

 

The kind of "prescient" writing style you refer to is more befitting of a Howard Shore score.

 

This!

[Holko 9,499]

That.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

The state of the art animatronics had only reached a certain level. Sy Snootles couldn't really open her mouth, she couldn't lip sync properly, her eyes couldn't move. You know, it was a very complex creature to develop.

[mstrox 6,643]

Justin continues to enchant me, in the disenchantment thread.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

30 minutes ago, Ghostbusters II said:

The state of the art animatronics had only reached a certain level. Sy Snootles couldn't really open her mouth, she couldn't lip sync properly, her eyes couldn't move. You know, it was a very complex creature to develop.

 

When you say, "I want more, but I know I shouldn't", you could turn there. You know, "I want more, but I know I shouldn't."

[Quintus 5,399]

[Nick Parker 3,040]

That's way too many notes to unlock such a profound symbiosis with the the mind of a genius such as John Williams. I mean, maybe you need those many notes, Lee, and even then still have a paltry understanding of John, but a true apostle of Williams needs only two notes to ascend to the level of complete enlightenment.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

And so we've managed to do is to take, uh, and create a kind of a beak that comes out and attacks him and, uh, more tentacles. And it just looks more realistic and much more threatening, which I think helps that scene considerably.

[John 2,032]

But Mr. Lucas, now it doesn’t look like a big bum hole in the desert anymore!

[Mattris 416]

1 hour ago, Demodex said:

This is ridiculous. 

 

How so? Do you at least understand what I consider the Vader Motif?

 

45 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

He doesn't write haphazardly: he writes intuitively.

 

He watches the movie (and does nothing but watch the movie) and writes music to accentuate (or contrast) the emotion that the scenes make him feel. That's a great way to compose film scores.

 

The kind of "prescient" writing style you refer to is more befitting of a Howard Shore score.

 

Incorrect. John Williams does not 'just watch the movie' before he writes the score. He speaks with the director, spots the film with the director (and possibly the producer), and in the case of Episode I, used his knowledge of Anakin's fate to incorporate Vader's Theme into Anakin's Theme.

 

To all who doubt my observations: How am I wrong? Using the specific music examples I referenced, I challenge you to create a counter-argument.

 

I'll say this: As of now, John Williams and JJ Baby have you all in the dark, just as Rey was in VIII... and will be even more so in IX.

[Quintus 5,399]

Some movie fans memorise all their favourite lines from their favourite movie. But some fans also memorise all their favourite lines from the behind the scenes documentary. 

[Nick Parker 3,040]

3 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Using the specific music examples I referenced, I challenge you to create a counter-argument.

 

People already have, and you manage to twist their observations in every manner possible to keep yourself in the right. With that attitude, it's impossible for you to lose any sort of argument.

 

 

[Quintus 5,399]

It looked to me like his tomfoolery was defeated ages ago here, no? Isn't it just the case that the thread now serves as a guilty pleasure to bored JWFanners? 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Finally! You figured it out.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

6 minutes ago, Quintus said:

It looked to me like his tomfoolery was defeated ages ago here, no? 

 

By any meaningful metric, yes. He just keeps moving the goalpost.

 

Cites an example of Vader's theme in a track, with timestamps: "Prove me wrong."

 

"These notes are irrefutably not Vader's Theme, here's the notation I took the effort and care to prepare to show this."

 

"Wow, what a fool! I don't know who's more the dumbass: you, or what you apparently think Williams is! Williams altered the notes of the theme in this isolated, incidental passage that has a lot in common with a lot of his other scores-- a stylistic trademark, really-- to keep you off the trail! Why am I the only one here who actually understands John Williams?"

[Mattris 416]

On 08/04/2019 at 3:11 PM, Nick Parker said:

People already have, and you manage to twist their observations in every manner possible to keep yourself in the right. With that attitude, it's impossible for you to lose any sort of argument.

 

None have done so to my last post, in which I explained things in basic music terminology. This doesn't come down to "attitude". It comes down to music theory, logic, reality, and facts.

 

On 08/04/2019 at 3:18 PM, Nick Parker said:

By any meaningful metric, yes. He just keeps moving the goalpost.

 

Cites an example of Vader's theme in a track, with timestamps: "Prove me wrong."

 

"These notes are irrefutably not Vader's Theme, here's the notation I took the effort and care to prepare to show this."

 

"Wow, what a fool! I don't know who's more the dumbass, you, or what you apparently think Williams is! Williams changed the notes in this isolated, incidental passage that has a lot in common with a lot of his other scores, a stylistic trademark, to keep you off the trail! Why am I the only one here who actually understands John Williams?"

 

You can make fun of me, but it won't gain you anything. Williams intended to keep the references vague enough (using major/minor/diminished scales/chords, adding/subtracting notes, etc.) so that the vast majority of listeners would not hear the Vader Motif as it appeared in its original form (a major triad).

 

If you think all of these references are just 'incidental passages' in a score "that has a lot in common with a lot of his other scores", you have much to learn.

 

With only a solo flute playing, The Scavenger is the easiest example to understand. The last 4 notes @ 3:26 -- descending D, B, G, E, and finally that same B after a elongated space, where a D would have completed the Vader Motif exactly. This passage, along with the others I noted, was composed intently. Anyone who refutes this is musically inept and grossly underestimates John Williams.

[Remco 685]

2 minutes ago, Mattris said:

It comes down to music theory, logic, reality, and facts.

 

...all four of which you seem to have difficulties with. 

[Nick Parker 3,040]

20 minutes ago, Mattris said:

 

None have done so to my last post, in which I explained things in basic music terminology. This doesn't come down to "attitude". It comes down to music theory, logic, reality, and facts.

 

 

You can make fun of me, but it won't gain you anything. Williams intended to keep the references vague enough (using minor/diminished chords, adding/subtracting notes, etc.) so that the vast majority of listeners would not hear Vader's Theme in its major-key glory.

 

If you think all of these references are just 'incidental passages' in a score "that has a lot in common with a lot of his other scores", you have much to learn.

 

With only a solo flute playing, The Scavenger is the easiest example to understand. The last 4 notes @ 3:26 -- descending D, B, G, and finally that same B after a elongated space, where a D would have completed the Vader Motif exactly. This passage, along with the others I noted, was composed intently. Anyone who refutes this is musically inept and grossly underestimates John Williams.

 

Why have you not commented on the musical link between the Resistance and the Emperor, as I showed with the same motivic link between Rey and the Emperor?

[Quintus 5,399]

29 minutes ago, Mattris said:

 

This doesn't come down to "attitude". It comes down to music theory, logic, reality, and facts.

 

 

Honestly mate, the entirety of JWFan, Twitter and beyond would find the theory, logic, reality and facts of Donald Trump more credible than anything you have to divulge here. Give it up, you look a fool. At 109 pages, the joke has surely run its course?

[Falstaft 2,132]

30 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Vader's Theme in its major-key glory.

 

Forget Rey's theme, the real revelation here seems to be that Darth Vader's theme, thought for so long to be the quintessential minor-mode melody, was in a major key all along! 

[Nick Parker 3,040]

6 minutes ago, Falstaft said:

 

Forget Rey's theme, the real revelation here seems to be that Darth Vader's theme, thought for so long to be the quintessential minor-mode melody, was in a major key all along! 

 

Weeeellll, in fairness to Mattris, I think he meant more that the intervals of his theme (G Eb Bb in its first Imperial March statement) spell out a major triad. I'm trying to go on a limb for him here.

[Quintus 5,399]

13 minutes ago, Nick Parker said:

 

Weeeellll, in fairness to Mattris, I think he meant more that the intervals of his theme (G Eb Bb in its first Imperial March statement) spell out a major triad. I'm trying to go on a limb for him here.

 

You absolute sadist. I'm sure your comrades here are thankful for this clarification. 

[Nick Parker 3,040]

Just now, Quintus said:

 

You absolute sadist. I'm sure your comrades here are thankful for this clarification. 

 

I mean at this point Pandora's Box's lid has been blown way the hell open, figured might as well surf in the absurdity of this whirlpool.

[Quintus 5,399]

Nah don't worry about it, you're just the exact type of user whom I alluded to earlier when I basically said there's people here who live for threads like this one. 

[Mattris 416]

4 hours ago, Remco said:

...all four of which you seem to have difficulties with. 

 

Do tell.

 

4 hours ago, Nick Parker said:

Why have you not commented on the musical link between the Resistance and the Emperor, as I showed with the same motivic link between Rey and the Emperor?

 

If there is a link, you lot are no longer worth my time... so I won't bother.

 

4 hours ago, Quintus said:

Honestly mate, the entirety of JWFan, Twitter and beyond would find the theory, logic, reality and facts of Donald Trump more credible than anything you have to divulge here. Give it up, you look a fool. At 109 pages, the joke has surely run its course?

 

Honestly mate, tell me how I am not credible... more than just saying that others think I'm a 'fool'. Please describe how my observations regarding John Williams' compositions are all 'nothing to see here'.

 

4 hours ago, Falstaft said:

Forget Rey's theme, the real revelation here seems to be that Darth Vader's theme, thought for so long to be the quintessential minor-mode melody, was in a major key all along! 

 

3 hours ago, Nick Parker said:

Weeeellll, in fairness to Mattris, I think he meant more that the intervals of his theme (G Eb Bb in its first Imperial March statement) spell out a major triad. I'm trying to go on a limb for him here.

 

(Corrected.) Thoughts on my find in "The Scavenger"?