Star Wars Disenchantment

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Makes him smart. Who the hell wants kids around?

[Arpy 4,145]

12 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

Why are people unwilling to take Kylo's words at face value? 

Perhaps because he's a conflicted and emotionally compromised villain who murdered his own father? I'll take anything he says at face value, but with a grain, or a lump more like it, of salt.

 

[Nick Parker 3,040]

50 minutes ago, Arpy said:

Like he was in TLJ.

 

Wait, so people complain about Luke not being the character they loved from the original movies, but want him to be a deadbeat dad who deserts his daughter? 

[Arpy 4,145]

5 minutes ago, Nick Parker said:

 

Wait, so people complain about Luke not being the character they loved from the original movies, but want him to be a deadbeat dad who deserts his daughter? 

I'm not one of the people complaining about Luke's character in TLJ! It was probably my favorite aspect of the film. 

[Nick Parker 3,040]

3 minutes ago, Arpy said:

I'm not one of the people complaining about Luke's character in TLJ! It was probably my favorite aspect of the film. 

 

I remember, but anyone who wanted (some who still want?) Rey to be of Luke's lineage...I mean, how else would that play out, except for the "I stranded you on a backwards-ass desert planet in a mirror of my own childhood, to live a miserable life of self-reliance and endless toil for the basic necessities, because it was for your own good" angle? 

[Arpy 4,145]

1 hour ago, Nick Parker said:

 

I remember, but anyone who wanted (some who still want?) Rey to be of Luke's lineage...I mean, how else would that play out, except for the "I stranded you on a backwards-ass desert planet in a mirror of my own childhood, to live a miserable life of self-reliance and endless toil for the basic necessities, because it was for your own good" angle? 

He already fucked up by trying to kill Ben, I agree, it sounds a little too far-fetched for him to abandon his daughter, but perhaps he couldn't bear to see her or have a daughter because he felt conflicted about the Jedi way? 

[Chen G. 3,943]

3 hours ago, Arpy said:

Perhaps because he's a conflicted and emotionally compromised villain who murdered his own father? I'll take anything he says at face value, but with a grain, or a lump more like it, of salt.

 

Yeah, but it isn't him who says it: its Rey!

 

2 hours ago, Arpy said:

It was probably my favorite aspect of the film. 

 

Yes. When he nearly killed Ben, was the one time over the course of the movie I thought: "Now, here's a truly bold choice!"

 

Although on the flipside, I think some of the weight of that revelation was taken away by the way the unreliable narrator was used as a device: When Kylo gives his version, visual elements like a very hightened, ghoulish makeup on Luke, hint that his isn't the real version.

[Mattris 416]

The whole 'Lucasfilm had no plan for the trilogy' thing is a lie. Why do I think this? Read on.

 

In 2012, newly appointed Lucasfilm president Kathleen Kennedy lied to Star Wars creator George Lucas when she said that Lucasfilm's goal would be to "honor the characters and stories in the way that you created them". Lucas sold the company under the presupposition that he would be kept on as a lead creative adviser and that his sequel trilogy treatments would be used in the upcoming films. He soon realized that he was being largely dismissed and ignored, so decided to leave the company.

 

The old EU material was wiped, and the Lucasfilm Story Group would collaborate with many writers/authors to create a vast amount of new canon material: tie-in novels, film novelizations, comics, shows, and games. All of this material closely aligns with itself and the films, including TFA and TLJ. Saying that 'the canon is just fans service' is pure ignorance. The fact is, explanations and clues - as they pertain to the films - have be presented in this material. These writers of the canon had instructions and an overall plan - is did the writers of the films. Episode 9 is the culmination of what they've all been working towards.

 

Known 'mystery box' producer/director JJ Abrams was hired to helm the first film. Knowing the saga films would be the main draw to the franchise, he (along with Lawrence Kasdan) would come up with an outline for the trilogy... which was told to have been dropped when...

 

Rian Johnson was hired to write and direct the next film. To many fans, TLJ's worthy moments were largely overshadowed by its questionable, confusing, and divisive moments - of which there were many. The "Tell us you have a plan!" scene's real-world parallels are too on-the-nose to be a coincidence. In the film, Poe eventually learned that they did have a plan, and that it came from the top (Leia). Translation: Lucasfilm has a plan. But let's just blindly accept JJ when he says that he didn't meet with Johnson before he wrote TLJ.

 

For Lucasfilm to have "no plan" for the Saga films, all of this must be true:

 

- They invented a Mary Sue character - the face of the new Star Wars - without a plan.

- They killed Han, Luke, and Snoke without a plan.

- They had Han Solo and Leia's son turn to the Dark Side without a plan.

- They invented a "programmed from birth" Stormtrooper who lost his mind on Jakku and became infatuated with Rey without a plan.

- Lucasfilm spent millions of dollars on various forms of the new canon material without a plan.

- Fire Lord, Miller, and Trevorrow without a plan.

- Numerous new characters introduced, questions raised, and expectations subverted without a plan.

- They split the fandom in half, resulting in years of upheaval and concern, without a plan.

- They allowed employees to criticize and demean disappointed/confused fans without a plan.

- They allowed the media to accuse the fans of racism and sexism, as well as run with false narratives and fake news without a plan.

- They seem to assume they can continue this behavior long-term, without apology or remorse... or a plan.

- The numerous musical similarities/quotes/references of other themes (most notably Vader's Theme and The Emperor) within Rey's Theme and the scores is a just a coincidence or written to sound 'Star Warsy'... because that how John Williams composes his scores. (sarcasm)

- After purchasing the most famous & popular movie franchise of all time, Disney allowed Lucasfilm to have no plan for the concluding trilogy of the Saga.

- Shortly before they retired, Kathleen Kennedy and Bob Iger would rest their own personal legacies, billions of dollars invested, billions in potentially lost revenue, the Star Wars franchise, and the viability of the Disney brand on two men, who were allowed to do whatever they wanted, film-to-film.

 

Lucasfilm's directors made it a point to publicly admit that they had no plan, with JJ finally saying the same... just days before the title and trailer were released. It's almost like they're bragging about it, with Kathleen Kennedy jokingly using a line from Raiders: "we're making this up as we go". Who jokes about not having a plan? Answer: The president of one of the biggest entertainment studios in the world.

 

If you think that these people are 'just telling the truth', I will refer you to Kathleen Kennedy's words to George Lucas (above). The woman is a liar and not a fan of Star Wars. She hired mystery box writer JJ to f**k with the fans and go down in infamy. Because why let the fans complain about your Star Wars films and personal agenda when you can preempt them with the biggest trolling job in entertainment history... or performance art, if you prefer that term.

 

So actually, Lucasfilm does have a plan: Say that you 'have no plan', but make a fan service film, then a divisive film, knowing that a backlash would ensue. But instead of calming the storm, let the fandom split in half, complain, be confused, and argue amongst themselves for years... all while allowing/instructing Lucasfilm employees to antagonize and insult fans on Twitter. Allow the (shill) media to run with false narratives (The critical fans must be racists and sexists!). Finally, produce with a film that makes sense of everything and ends the Trilogy and Saga on a high note. Gotcha! This whole situation has JJ Abrams written all over it. But he really has outdone himself, as this stunt could be risky for someone who desires to expand their horizons. But I'm sure Disney paid him well... and will likely hire him on a long-term contract for a job well-done.

 

Everything that Disney/Lucasfilm has done with Star Wars has been a shell game to keep the (mostly) naive fans confused, distracted, and emotional. This strategy of deceit, acting incompetent, holding their cards close, and allowing chaos to reign within the fandom is bold as brass. It would mean that Lucasfilm is forgoing short-term profit for long-term remembrance. But going in, they knew that Star Wars was invincible and chose to ride the wave of selfishness, sinister cultural manipulation, and power.

 

Does this sound like anyone I might have mentioned a time or two lately?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

You need to give this stuff to Wikileaks!

[Chen G. 3,943]

26 minutes ago, Mattris said:

The old EU material was wiped, and the Lucasfilm Story Group would collaborate with many writers/authors to create a vast amount of new canon material: tie-in novels, film novelizations, comics, shows, and games. All of this material closely aligns with itself and the films, including TFA and TLJ. Saying that 'the canon is just fans service' is pure ignorance. The fact is, explanations and clues - as they pertain to the films - have be presented in this material. These writers of the canon had instructions and an overall plan - is did the writers of the films.

 

If they did, they'd had to have some kind of writing credits on the individual films, which they clearly do not. This is unlike - say - MCU films, which are typically not principally written by their directors, if at all. 

 

After all, why would writers sign up to contribute so significantly to the story of a film in which they would have no further involvement and no credit? Why would a writer/director want to sign unto a film where he (or she) will have to confrom to the writing of somebody else? It makes no sense.

 

Besides, what writer/director would want to sign unto a film where he (or she) will be held back by such a story group? And why would the story group writers, if the films are made off of their backs as you would have it, want to write for films in the making of which they have no actual involvement? It makes no sense.

 

The Story Group exists to retcon elements left out of the films into novels and comics. That is it.

 

I much prefer Abrams, Johnson and Kennedy being upfront about not having a plan (which isn't necessarily a bad thing. After all, what is art without spontaneity?) over Lucas lying about having a grand plan. The first Star Wars trilogy was being made just like this: different writers and directors for each entry, and a completely new story and screenplay, with little to no planning ahead whatsoever

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

10 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

If they did, they'd had to have some kind of writing credits on the individual films, which they clearly do not. Why would writers sign up to contribute so significantly to the story of a film in which they would have no further involvement and no credit? Why would a writer/director want to sign unto a film where he (or she) will have to confrom to the writing of somebody else? It makes no sense.

 

Besides, what writer/director would want to sign unto a film where he (or she) will be held back by such a story group? And why would the story group writers, if the films are made off of their backs as you would have it, want to write for films in the making of which they have no actual involvement? It makes no sense.

 

The Story Group exists to retcon elements left out of the films into novels and comics. That is it.

 

I much prefer Abrams, Johnson and Kennedy being upfront about not having a plan (which isn't necessarily a bad thing. After all, what is art without spontaneity?) over Lucas lying about having a grand plan.

 

Ghostwriters?

[Chen G. 3,943]

I seem to recall its not a very popular practice today.  Again, look at Marvel: they're unafraid to admit that their films are written people other than the director. But Kennedy very intentionally hired writer/directors, and so far they all had a major part to play in the screenwriting of their own films.

 

The grand plan idea is an illusion. The lack of such a plan was all but guaranteed when it became known that these films would be coming out two years apart.

[Arpy 4,145]

Many elements of Lucas's original plans were reused by Abrams and Johnson when they created their films - the 'Art of' book and various other sources describe that Lucas had a direction for the trilogy which was ultimately dropped, but of which, elements and fragments were used in forming the various characters - particularly Rey.

 

I think it's likely Abrams and Kasdan developed a plan for the series, but on the basis that he would only direct one film and the following directors would 'riff' off their ideas. 

 

[Chen G. 3,943]

Naturally, when you leave a story unfinished (as The Force Awakens does) you leave a certain traejectory in which the story is going to go. You know from the setup that there's going to be some final confrontation between Rey and Kylo Ren in IX. We all knew, as The Force Awakens was drawing to a close, that Rey will be trained by Luke, who - haunted by the tragic past - would be somewhat reluctant to rejoin the struggle and/or teach her.

 

I wouldn't count that as a plan: its more of an intuitive thing. Its just something that's inherent to the way in which stories are told, whether they're contained within a single entry or three.

 

On top of that, for my money, if you're going to the preplanned route, you better go all the way and write three screenplays, do previz and shoot and assemble the whole thing in one fell swoop. Just having a plan, but leaving the execution of it (which is what really matters) to the hands of several different filmmakers across a couple of years is bound to leave you with something disjointed, in spite of the plan.

[leeallen01 2,133]

How else do you think they're going to destroy the lore with ep9 then? Perhaps even more force powers will be invented that destroy the stakes and drama of previous films. Like Yoda, as a force ghost, being able to physically hit Luke, and use force lightening of course to burn a tree. It's a shame that Yoda couldn't be bothered to just show up and kill the emperor with force lightening, or just show up and smack snoke in the face and set him on fire. But I guess yoda can't interfere, even though he and Obi wan interfere countless times as force ghosts. Let's ask Rian, Kathleen and J.J.

[Chen G. 3,943]

I always had a similar quibble with Obi-Wan's voice, which one would imagine being psychically within Luke's head, reverberating in Yoda's hut. Its this wierd three-way conversation where one side is incorporeal.

 

On some level, it seems logical that these films would continue to explore new Force capabilities. Conceptually at least, astral projection certainly fits into the mythological/fairytale palettte of Star Wars.

[Holko 9,499]

There's no weather on the artificial Death Star II - no natural storms as part of the Force to manipulate.

[leeallen01 2,133]

New force powers are not the issue. I actually think force projection and force skype were decent ideas. Not well executed, but interesting concepts. The problem is introducing new things that affect previous films, such as lore alterations. Giving Yoda force lightening and the ability to destroy physical objects in the real world, has major implications when applied to Star Wars overall. Just like the holdo's lightspeed attack. Why didn't anyone ever try that ever before?

 

As I said, why didn't yoda use his powers to destroy snoke or the emperor or kylo or a first order ship etc? It doesn't make sense.

 

People like to write FOR the filmmakers by saying things like "well maybe he can't attack force powered people." Or "maybe Yoda doesn't want to interfere in the real world." Etc. Those are excuses where fans 'invent' reasons to explain bad writing.

 

If it's not in the film, then it doesn't happen.

 

 

Just now, Holko said:

There's no weather on the artificial Death Star II - no natural storms as part of the Force to manipulate.

 

 

Seriously? So why didn't yoda use force lightening to destroy the shield generator on endor then? Or just show up and knock snoke out with his bloody stick haha

[Holko 9,499]

A Jedi does not use the Force to just go to places and wreck shit up. Knowledge and defense, never for attack.

[Chen G. 3,943]

Sure...

 

I must have imagined all the lightsaber battles in these films.

 

11 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

Giving Yoda force lightening and the ability to destroy physical objects in the real world, has major implications when applied to Star Wars overall. Just like the holdo's lightspeed attack. Why didn't anyone ever try that ever before?

  

As I said, why didn't yoda use his powers to destroy snoke or the emperor or kylo or a first order ship etc? It doesn't make sense.

 

Yeah, but that's a problem inherent to the haphazard nature of the narrative in this series: because every entry was made up as the various filmmakers went along. Not that two wrongs make a right, but its no worse than R2D2 being able to fly (!) in Attack of the Clones or, again, that godawful "Leia's my sister" cr@p.

 

Point is, sometimes you have to cut your loses and just introduce new elements, even if their absence in previous films of the series would be puzzling.

[Arpy 4,145]

R2D2 was younger back then.

[Score 770]

7 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

New force powers are not the issue. I actually think force projection and force skype were decent ideas. Not well executed, but interesting concepts. The problem is introducing new things that affect previous films, such as lore alterations. Giving Yoda force lightening and the ability to destroy physical objects in the real world, has major implications when applied to Star Wars overall. Just like the holdo's lightspeed attack. Why didn't anyone ever try that ever before?

 

 

I hope I will not regret what I'm going to say, but... I've always thought that force ghosts really cannot affect anything in the real world, being a "presence" only for those who see them (for example, only Luke sees the trio at the end of ROTJ). In the case of the burning tree scene in TLJ, the lightning could be just a real event, while Luke's vision of Yoda could be his personal interpretation. In other words, an external observer would just see a normal lightning strike the tree, while in Luke's imagination, Yoda is casting the lightning. 

[Chen G. 3,943]

The whole Force ghost idea is weird. Occasionally, having the voice of a deceased character in another character's mind can be powerful: look no further than the Battle of Yavin or - to look at another franchise - Frodo seeing Gandalf in his mind on the shores of the Anduin. But as a prevasive presence? Kind of takes away from the weight of the deaths in these films.

 

While its weird continuity-wise, I like that there aren't any Force ghosts or a dissappearance of corpses in the prequel trilogy. When I first watched the original Star Wars, the fact that Vader essentially struck an empty cape really took something away from the moment.

[leeallen01 2,133]

9 minutes ago, Holko said:

A Jedi does not use the Force to just go to places and wreck shit up. Knowledge and defense, never for attack.

 

Classic case of writing the film for the filmmakers. Stop apologising for their failures.

[Holko 9,499]

No continuity problems there: Qui-Gon was the first to become a ghost, took a decade, taught it to Obi and Yoda.

 

 

 

Sorry for fucking quoting Yoda from Empire Strikes Back.

[leeallen01 2,133]

4 minutes ago, Score said:

 

I hope I will not regret what I'm going to say, but... I've always thought that force ghosts really cannot affect anything in the real world, being a "presence" only for those who see them (for example, only Luke sees the trio at the end of ROTJ). In the case of the burning tree scene in TLJ, the lightning could be just a real event, while Luke's vision of Yoda could be his personal interpretation. In other words, an external observer would just see a normal lightning strike the tree, while in Luke's imagination, Yoda is casting the lightning. 

 

Again, you're writing the film for the filmmakers. 

[Chen G. 3,943]

1 minute ago, Holko said:

No continuity problems there: Qui-Gon was the first to become a ghost, took a decade, taught it to Obi and Yoda.

 

1 minute ago, leeallen01 said:

Classic case of writing the film for the filmmakers. Stop apologising for their failures.

 

[Holko 9,499]

Watch RotS. They say it out loud in the last 5 bloody minutes!

[leeallen01 2,133]

Just now, Holko said:

Watch RotS. They say it out loud in the last 5 bloody minutes.

 

 

Ah yes when Yoda said "first to become a ghost, qui-gon is. A decade it took. taught it to Obi and me, he will."

[Chen G. 3,943]

I do recall that Yoda says something to Obi-Wan about learning to communicate with Qui-Gon, but its not enough. The idea of Force ghosts appearing, and of one's body disappearing is not really set-up there.

 

 I understand that another, deleted scene was to deal with it more fully, but being that its not in the cut, it doesn't really count.

[Holko 9,499]

🙄

 

[leeallen01 2,133]

TFA screwed it all up as well, of course. Why the hell didn't Anakin (who was shown to be able to be a force ghost) just show up to Kylo and say "dude, stop. I wasn't evil in the end. I sacrificed myself for Luke and destroyed the Sith. Stop being a dick already."

[Holko 9,499]

Because they would have had to cast Hayden because of the bluray fuckery.

[leeallen01 2,133]

Just now, Holko said:

Because they would have had to cast Hayden because of the bluray fuckery.

 

That's a pathetically weak excuse. Stop apologising for their bad writing.

[Chen G. 3,943]

 

2 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

TFA screwed it all up as well, of course. Why the hell didn't Anakin (who was shown to be able to be a force ghost) just show up

 

And here I was, reading the first few words and thinking you were going to talk about the lightsaber. You know, the one that fell into the chasm in Cloud City.

[Holko 9,499]

And you think Kylo is such a rational and stableminded individual that he would've listened to that and immediately changed into a goody-two-shoes? He would've viewed Vader as a failure and wanted even more to "finish what he started".

[leeallen01 2,133]

Just now, Holko said:

And you think Kylo is such a rational and stableminded individual that he would've listened to that and immediately be goody-two-shoes? He would've viewed him as even more of a failure and wanted even more to "finish what he started".

 

STOP.WRITING.THE.FILM.FOR.THE.FILMMAKERS.

 

[Chen G. 3,943]

7 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

hy the hell didn't Anakin (who was shown to be able to be a force ghost) just show up to Kylo

 

3 minutes ago, Holko said:

And you think Kylo is such a rational and stableminded individual that he would've listened to that and immediately cnaged into a goody-two-shoes? He would've viewed him as a failure and wanted even more to "finish what he started".

 

You're reminding me of this:

 

 

I like some of the thinking behind this, but I really don't think its a good idea. Besides, its all predicated upon the notion that Kylo should be redeemed. For me, his redemption was forgone after he killed his father, and Johnson did well to solidify Kylo's villany in The Last Jedi.

[Holko 9,499]

Oh, sorry, I thought we were discussing hypothetical horseshit like "what if Yoda killed Snoke as a force ghost".

[leeallen01 2,133]

8 minutes ago, Holko said:

Oh, sorry, I thought we were discussing hypothetical horseshit like "what if Yoda killed Snoke as a force ghost".

 

You don't understand. If someone introduces something that counters previous events, such as Hyperspace can be weaponised into a devastating force where one ship can destroy multiple other ships including splitting a flag ship in half and destroying countless star destroyers with it, then it presents questions. For example, why didn't anyone ever do that before. People will inevitably watch previous star wars films and say "why not just hyperspace into them and destroy the entire empire's fleet?"

 

It contradicts itself. It is poor writing. 

 

What you are then doing is making up scenarios where it's okay, and doesn't contradict itself. That is inventing something NOT in the film, to excuse it. 

 

I am asking questions based on ACTUAL events that happened in the film. You are answering my questions based on INVENTED events that didn't happen in the film.

 

Do you understand?

[mstrox 6,647]

I think this is the right thread for this question.  Yoda’s species is like a hairy lizard.  Do you think that they have dangling mammalian penises, or the kind of inverted lizard hemipenis?  I’m pretty sure if there was an answer, the Lucasfilm Story Group made it Legends. What are your thoughts?

[leeallen01 2,133]

1 minute ago, mstrox said:

I think this is the right thread for this question.  Yoda’s species is like a hairy lizard.  Do you think that they have dangling mammalian penises, or the kind of inverted lizard hemipenis?  I’m pretty sure if there was an answer, the Lucasfilm Story Group made it Legends. What are your thoughts?

 

They use artificial insemination. 

[Holko 9,499]

1 minute ago, leeallen01 said:

 

You don't understand. If someone introduces something that counters previous events, such as Hyperspace can be weaponised into a devastating force where one ship can destroy multiple other ships including splitting a flag ship in half and destroying countless star destroyers with it, then it presents questions. For example, why didn't anyone ever do that before. People will inevitably watch previous star wars films and say "why not just hyperspace into them and destroy the entire empire's fleet?"

 

It contradicts itself. It is poor writing. 

 

Did YOU think of hyperspacing into things? Did anyone else on the planet think of hyperspacing into things before TLJ?

[Chen G. 3,943]

3 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

You don't understand. If someone introduces something that counters previous events[...]It is poor writing. 

 

When you have to weigh Star Wars' already-wonky continuity with originality and creativity in filmmaking, the latter would probably win, for me.

 

[leeallen01 2,133]

Just now, Holko said:

 

Did YOU think of hyperspacing into things? Did anyone else on the planet think of hyperspacing into things before TLJ?

 

Okay, you really don't understand.

 

I AM NOT IN STAR WARS

 

THE CHARACTERS ARE.

 

are you telling me that no one in the history of the galaxy has EVER tried to hyperspace into something?

 

Wow, I've never seen someone apologise so much for bad writing. 

[mstrox 6,647]

1 minute ago, leeallen01 said:

 

They use artificial insemination. 

 

Where do they get the semen, lee?

 

 

 

 

I will not be answering questions about Yaddle.  Please respect my privacy in this difficult time.

[Holko 9,499]

Why the fuck didn't Europe just use the scorched earth tactic against the tatars? It worked so well later for the russians.

 

Why didn't people in medieval times use electric lightbulbs? They're so convenient and simple.

 

History is so terribly written.

[leeallen01 2,133]

5 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

When you have to weigh Star Wars' already-wonky continuity with originality and creativity in filmmaking, the latter would probably win, for me.

 

 

You can be as creative as you want, if you have an original story. If you are 'continuing' someone elses story, you have the obligation to respect that internal logical consistency of their work, otherwise write something original of your own instead

2 minutes ago, Holko said:

Why the fuck didn't Europe just use the scorched earth tactic against the tatars?

 

Why didn't people in medieval times use electric lightbulbs? They're so convenient and simple.

 

History is so terribly written.

 

I don't want to be nasty, but you clearly aren't of an adequate level of intelligence to have a conversation with.

[Holko 9,499]

You want the films to overexplain every single hypothetical scenario you could come up with?

[leeallen01 2,133]

Just now, Holko said:

You want the films to overexplain every single hypothetical scenario you could come up with?

Nope. Just to be consistent with their own logic. Some films manage that. So it is clearly possible. Not for bad writers though.