Star Wars Disenchantment

[Fargo 297]

On 4/5/2019 at 5:55 PM, Fargo said:

I’m all for weirdness in movies - I think they’re getting too boring, predictable and safe. And I don’t really think your theory is bad. It’s a fine story and if it was true, and had been handled properly, it could make for good cinema. 

 

I gave old Mattris some credit. Even though I 100% thought it would not happen.

[Demodex 557]

Well fuck me. Congrats, Mattris. 

[Alex 2,833]

https://babylonbee.com/news/disillusioned-by-the-last-jedi-star-wars-fans-threaten-to-only-see-next-film-three-times

[Nick Parker 3,040]

20 minutes ago, Holko said:

Remind me where the teaser says Palps has anything to do with Rey, guys.

 

For all we know they find some hologram he left behind, and that's the end of it. I think we're all more commenting on the appearance of the dude himself in some form , hence why I wrote "struck the right vein".

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

He's now listed on IMDb.

[Fabulin 3,510]

.

[mstrox 6,646]

You'd think he would have been listed on that ages ago

[Fabulin 3,510]

.

[Mattris 416]

 

14 hours ago, SteveMc said:

@Mattris, you crazy man!  You semi-called it

"No one's ever really gone"

 

Semi?

 

 

13 hours ago, Stefancos said:

Either that laugh is a red herring, for another flashback. Or Mattris guessed correctly.

 

Not a chance that it's a red herring. After the trailer was shown live a SW Celebration, Ian McDiarmid walked out on stage... by himself. I'd say numerous flashbacks are possible. Palpatine's influence, spirit, and/or plan will be fully revealed... and concluded.

 

14 hours ago, Remco said:

Your musical analysis is still bs, but for the rest: bravo @Mattris.

13 hours ago, Nick Parker said:

I echo Remco's sentiment: barring all of the musical stuff, it seems like you got a good shot of having struck the right vein, Mattris.

 

"All of the musical stuff"? How was I wrong? I hit the nail on the head.

 

13 hours ago, Quintus said:

What was Mattris' actual theory btw? That Rey would turn to the Dark side by the end? 

 

Some of us have been willing that to happen since TFA. I remember discussing it on here, while Mattris was still swimmin' around his dads balls. 

 

I still don't think Disney has the balls themselves to do it, mind. 

 

Rey will have been 'created' by Palpatine or by the loyal Imperials/scientists/keepers of Palpatine's laboratory on Jakku. She will learn of her origin and possibly turn to the Dark Side... or at the very least have an identity crisis leading to the film's climax.

 

13 hours ago, Holko said:

Remind me where the teaser says Palps has anything to do with Rey, guys.

 

At the beginning of the teaser, Rey is on Jakku staring at the entrance of Palpatine's Contingency laboratory on Jakku. Look in the center of the shot 31 seconds in: an unnatural looking rock formation, which appears to be the opening leading underground. In canon, all who come near it would be killed... by order of Palpatine himself.

 

12 hours ago, Nick Parker said:

For all we know they find some hologram he left behind, and that's the end of it. I think we're all more commenting on the appearance of the dude himself in some form , hence why I wrote "struck the right vein".

 

After all the Palpatine/Jakku references in the canon, I highly doubt Palpatine will presented only as a hologram, without a significant impact on the story. My guess is that Palpatine will have heavily influenced the motivations and identity of Rey and Kylo... his plan all along.

[Chen G. 3,943]

Come come @Mattris, as it is, its still too little to draw anything too concrete from.

 

It may be more the memory of Palpatine or something he left behind him (the ruins in the teaser may well be of the second Death Star) rather than him actually making a return.

 

Its always hazardous to draw conclusions from such a short teaser, especially when its released so early during the film's post-production period.

[Mattris 416]

Come come @Chen G.. I saw most of this this coming before the teaser.

[leeallen01 2,133]

Someones predictions always turn out to be correct.

 

This wasn't the plan. J.J is clearly just ignoring TLJ. 

 

Mark my words; when the trilogy is complete, you will be able to completely remove TLJ and it wont make any difference at all to the overall story.

[Chen G. 3,943]

I should hope not.

[mstrox 6,646]

They can just replace TLJ with a slide that says “Luke died on the way back to his home planet”

[Score 770]

27 minutes ago, Mattris said:

 

"All of the musical stuff"? How was I wrong? I hit the nail on the head.

 

 

The musical stuff is wrong and stays wrong, it was already explained to you. You drew conclusions based on wrong notes (the Scavenger fragment), not distinguishing between a major third and a minor third, seeing similarities based on fragments of just two notes, etcetera. Personally, the musical part of your analysis is the only thing I had objected to (except when you said that Anakin's theme quotes Vader's theme, which is true but also well known since 1999). On the other hand, you were right in predicting the return of the Emperor, which I also feel was a necessity because of the Darth Plagueis dialogue in the prequels.  

 

 

[Nick Parker 3,040]

It was a half-assed autopsy on the dock, and the Kintner boy actually happened to spill out.

[leeallen01 2,133]

The reason why everyone thought your Palpatine theory was wrong is because it's a terrible idea. But Disney are good at those so it turned out to be true. 

[Mattris 416]

3 hours ago, Score said:

The musical stuff is wrong and stays wrong, it was already explained to you. You drew conclusions based on wrong notes (the Scavenger fragment), not distinguishing between a major third and a minor third, seeing similarities based on fragments of just two notes, etcetera. Personally, the musical part of your analysis is the only thing I had objected to (except when you said that Anakin's theme quotes Vader's theme, which is true but also well known since 1999). On the other hand, you were right in predicting the return of the Emperor, which I also feel was a necessity because of the Darth Plagueis dialogue in the prequels.

 

I was correct in my general observations. In addition to what I already noted, the end of the The Scavenger has the notes F#, D, B in that order. The F# is a half-step off from the G that would have formed the major triad from Vader Motif from The Imperial March, other Vader - and Emperor Theme references - can be found with the scores. I hear many more references than "similarities based on fragments of just two notes"... because they are factually present.

 

If you honestly think that John Williams composed all of it unintentionally, without rhyme or reason, I will assume you are either ignorant of how Williams composes, that you underestimate JJ Abrams and his respect and admiration of John Williams, and/or that you believe that Lucasfilm would have approached the conclusion of the Star Wars Saga without a plan for the lead character.

 

I already know I'm right, but it seems as though it will all have to be proven to you in December based on the contents of the film and its score. I have nothing else to say on the matter.

 

2 hours ago, leeallen01 said:

The reason why everyone thought your Palpatine theory was wrong is because it's a terrible idea. But Disney are good at those so it turned out to be true. 

 

Wrong. Bringing Palpatine back into the story was a superb idea, with Episode III references to support it: cheating death, creating life, fearing loosing power. Plus, Palpatine's influence/presence gives the two new main characters a reason to feature in a new trilogy.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

Another point that I forgot about until now that would actually support Mattris' idea is that during the panel, JJ Abrams mentions Rey, Kylo, etc. trying to take down a powerful enemy. Stephen Colbert asks if JJ can reveal the enemy, and JJ dodges the question while the other cast members laugh. Assuming that JJ was referring to Palpatine, that would mean that Palpatine is the lead villain in this film, with everyone trying to take him down for good, as opposed to just a cameo or flashback or something.

 

I think it's pretty clear at this point that Palpatine will be the central threat, possibly even leading to the redemption of Ben.

[Fabulin 3,510]

.

 

[Demodex 557]

If Palpatine is still alive I'm going to be sorely disappointed. 

[Mattris 416]

Two more thoughts on the teaser:

 

1. I think Luke is speaking to Ben - not Rey.

2. The opening sequence is Ben trying to prevent Rey from entering the Jakku Contingency facility, where she would discover the truth of her past/origin, gain a dangerous power, and/or resurrect Palpatine... perhaps unknowingly.

[Arpy 4,145]

Well fuck. 

 

Mattris, you're no prophet, you arrived at your Palpatine theory through your misguided musical anal-ysis where nothing else had suggested even a hint at his return.

32 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Two more thoughts on the teaser:

 

1. I think Luke is speaking to Ben - not Rey.

2. The opening sequence is Ben trying to prevent Rey from entering the Jakku Contingency facility, where she would discover the truth of her past/origin, gain a dangerous power, and/or resurrect Palpatine... perhaps unknowingly.

I think it more likely that Palpatine is force ghost/sith spirit. 

[Fargo 297]

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

Two more thoughts on the teaser:

 

1. I think Luke is speaking to Ben - not Rey.

2. The opening sequence is Ben trying to prevent Rey from entering the Jakku Contingency facility, where she would discover the truth of her past/origin, gain a dangerous power, and/or resurrect Palpatine... perhaps unknowingly.

 

Who are we to deny what you say anymore? We are mere mortals. And you are Mattris the wise. 

 

I didn’t think it would happen, but here we are. And I’m actually pretty excited for the movie. Ian McD is a great actor - I just hope they give him better makeup than what was used in ROTS.

[Score 770]

7 hours ago, Mattris said:

 

I was correct in my general observations. In addition to what I already noted, the end of the The Scavenger has the notes F#, D, B in that order. The F# is a half-step off from the G that would have formed the major triad from Vader Motif from The Imperial March,

 

Exactly because the F# is a half-step off from G, it's a different interval, so it doesn't form the major triad from Vader's motif. The similarity between the two short melodies (we are literally talking of fragments of 2-3 notes) can be reduced to saying that "the melody goes down, then up, then down again" in both cases. You need something more solid to say that a theme quotes another one. 

 

Take this example, from the Battle of Hoth, starting at 1:41:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1riVCPmtJuY

 

In this case, we hear an obvious variation of the Imperial March (or Vader Motif, as you call it). The notes are Eb Eb Eb Cb Fb / Eb Cb Fb Eb. A literal statement of the march in the key of Eb minor would be  Eb Eb Eb Cb Gb / Eb Cb Gb Eb. So, the melody is not identical (one note was lowered by a tone, twice), however there is no doubt as to what it is. Is this in any way similar to the situation with the fragment that you mention? Absolutely no, because in this case there are at least two elements that identify this as a variation of the theme: 1) the rhythm, which is identical to that of the model, and 2) the instrumentation (6 horns, of which 3 stopped and 3 natural), which relies on the brass, similarly to the model. 

 

Now, in the case you are mentioning, 1) the melody is different, 2) the harmony is completely different, 3) the instrumentation is completely different, 4) the rhythm is completely different with respect to the model. So, they are just different.

 

 

7 hours ago, Mattris said:

I already know I'm right, but it seems as though it will all have to be proven to you in December based on the contents of the film and its score. I have nothing else to say on the matter.

 

 

Good! 

[Mattris 416]

Yes, it will be good when I am proven right.

 

I find it ironic that someone named 'Score' can't recognize the notes and themes that John Williams so carefully chose to hint at Rey's origin and/or destiny... foretold to him by JJ.

 

Although you said you would "disengage" from the conversation, you repeatedly feel the need to contradict me. I didn't bother reading your Battle of Hoth analysis since you have nothing to prove to me.

 

I've done my research and can see the writing on the wall, so it would probably be best if I contributed less... so as not to ruin the film/score surprises for most here.

[Score 770]

7 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Yes, it will be good when I am proven right.

 

I find it ironic that someone named 'Score' can't recognize the notes and themes that John Williams so carefully chose to hint at Rey's origin and/or destiny... foretold to him by JJ.

 

Although you said you would "disengage" from the conversation, you repeatedly feel the need to contradict me. I didn't bother reading your Battle of Hoth analysis since you have nothing to prove to me.

 

I've done my research and can see the writing on the wall, so it would probably be best if I contributed less... so as not to ruin the film/score surprises for most here.

 

Ok, enjoy the conversation with yourself then. Bye! I disengage for real.

[rough cut 1,714]

How sad it is to see the new trilogy pan out this way.

 

TFA actually did a good job, introducing new characters, new villains, saying goodbye to some old ones and still keeping enough of them around to still feel like Star Wars in a familiar setting.

 

Then TLJ came and f-ed it all up with “subverting expectations.” Making a big deal of Rey’s parents being nobody. Killing off Snoke.

 

And now Disney and JJ are trying to save it by bringing back that “Star Wars-feeling” - which means introducing old characters. The Emperor! Lando!

 

Didn’t we move on from these guys already? Isn’t the movie set in a huge galaxy that should contain unlimited adventures for unlimited characters (or at least the ones from TFA)? Can we just have a movie that feels like Star Wars and is set in the same universe without them bringing back every damn character from the OT?

[Remco 685]

It’s not just a character from the OT - it means he’s in a way been present in all nine movies which for me is a nice way of connecting them (if done well).

[Chen G. 3,943]

You don't just need to connect the nine movies: you need to show how the six previous films were incomplete were it not for the sequel trilogy.

 

Just bringing in The Emperor isn't going to suffice.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Ring theery or some shit

[Demodex 557]

1 hour ago, rough cut said:

Can we just have a movie that feels like Star Wars and is set in the same universe without them bringing back every damn character from the OT?

 

Rian Johnson's trilogy?

[leeallen01 2,133]

I do believe J.J. will make an acceptable film. It will be okay paced, visually okay, with some safe ideas with a couple of risky ones that will be 50/50 in working out. It will be better than TLJ (that's not saying much) but it still will disappoint. But it will restore just enough okay feelings that it will keep the slow, dying heartbeat of Star Wars alive enough to collect enough disney dollars.

[Arpy 4,145]

47 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

I do believe J.J. will make an acceptable film. It will be okay paced, visually okay, with some safe ideas with a couple of risky ones that will be 50/50 in working out. It will be better than TLJ (that's not saying much) but it still will disappoint. But it will restore just enough okay feelings that it will keep the slow, dying heartbeat of Star Wars alive enough to collect enough disney dollars.

 

Personally, I think it's fucking ridiculous to bring Palpatine back as anything other than a force ghost (as much as I love the character) and I was disappointed with The Last Jedi but I'm not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater and say the film's a write-off yet. You seem to be inadvertently placing too much stock into these films that it sounds like Mickey, Kathleen Kennedy and J.J.Abrams broke into your house and raped you. 

 

 

 

[savage 0]

On 4/13/2019 at 2:36 PM, leeallen01 said:

I do believe J.J. will make an acceptable film. It will be okay paced, visually okay, with some safe ideas with a couple of risky ones that will be 50/50 in working out. It will be better than TLJ (that's not saying much) but it still will https://happybabyguides.com/best-double-stroller/ . But it will restore just enough okay feelings that it will keep the slow, dying heartbeat of Star Wars alive enough to collect enough disney dollars.

 

My hope also.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It will be hard for JJ to make a trilogy closing film thats worse than Return Of The Jedi and Revenge Of The Sith 

[Jurassic Shark 12,027]

Return of the Jedi is good, though.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No, ROTJ really isn't a very good film.

[John 2,032]

It’s a fine film. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,027]

Indeed.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Revenge of the Sith is better.

[Jurassic Shark 12,027]

Not.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Jurassakin... I'm pregnant.

[Jurassic Shark 12,027]

Geez, I told you not to!

[leeallen01 2,133]

1 hour ago, Arpy said:

 

Personally, I think it's fucking ridiculous to bring Palpatine back as anything other than a force ghost (as much as I love the character) and I was disappointed with The Last Jedi but I'm not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater and say the film's a write-off yet. You seem to be inadvertently placing too much stock into these films that it sounds like Mickey, Kathleen Kennedy and J.J.Abrams broke into your house and raped you. 

 

 

 

 

Nah, but they rape people's nostalgia for dat sweet sweet doe.

 

Speaking of which I can't wait for Lion King!!! I REMEMBER THAT FILM. I RECOGNISE THOSE LIONS! 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

12 minutes ago, John said:

It’s a fine film. 

 

Its boring, and joyless. 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

The Ewoks are cute.

[John 2,032]

I disagree. It’s quite exciting at parts, and there is much heart in it. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

1 minute ago, John said:

I disagree. It’s quite exciting at parts, and there is much heart in it. 

 

Where? Han and Leia are joyless and dull. Luke is broody, Lando is no longer a stylish rogue, Vader is the Emperor's bitch.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

It's got the Emperor!