Star Wars Disenchantment

[Mattris 416]

Until you present factual evidence, your statement that "having a plan is more commercially dangerous than not having one" is just a theory. JJ even stated that the backlash to TLJ did not affect his writing of TROS.

 

The real risk was presenting the films in this manner, as most have assessed them as unpredictable and/or deliberately subversive. Many people expected a Hero's Journey. Many others think that Disney has been incompetent in presenting this trilogy cohesively, mainly due to the fact that they do not understand the context of the story, setting, and characters as they relate to the overall Saga... and have decided not to give it much thought. This has resulted in mass disappointment and confusion. Of course, these same people could have spent a little time thinking, reflecting, researching, or simply been patient until Episode IX comes out. But in this day of social media obsession, the default action seems to be to lash out in anger, argue, and/or primarily listen to others with which one agrees. This has lead nowhere, except stubbornness and ignorance.

 

@Chen G. How you think the Saga is complete if the Prequel Trilogy is taken into account, specifically regarding the Balance of the Force?

[Chen G. 3,944]

The saga (god, I hate that term) from Episodes I to VI is complete.

 

The Emperor is slain, Vader redeemed, the Empire defeated and the republic reestablished (implicit in the original version, or spelled out entirely in the special edition) and the heroes reunited. Not a single thread is left dangling, which to be fair isn't surprising given that there weren't many of those.

 

That Disney are perhaps willing to pull some such threads loose again, or make new threads out of minor plot-points (be it the Emperor's ability to create life or whatever) doesn't mean that the original hexalogy is unresolved.

 

This sequel trilogy is just...more...more for the sake of more; there's little that The Rise of Skywalker can do to change that, but I am all for seeing them try.

 

All of which - I feel obligated to add - doesn't mean that the individual films contained within the sequel trilogy are bad movies.

[SteveMc 2,674]

14 hours ago, Mattris said:

How you think the Saga is complete if the Prequel Trilogy is taken into account, specifically regarding the Balance of the Force?

Yub Nub was sung.  

Yub Nub was sung.

The benediction was sung. 

We could all go home.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Game of Thrones Disenchantment

[Mattris 416]

On 5/20/2019 at 3:49 AM, Chen G. said:

The saga (god, I hate that term) from Episodes I to VI is complete.

 

The Emperor is slain, Vader redeemed, the Empire defeated and the republic reestablished (implicit in the original version, or spelled out entirely in the special edition) and the heroes reunited. Not a single thread is left dangling, which to be fair isn't surprising given that there weren't many of those.

 

That Disney are perhaps willing to pull some such threads loose again, or make new threads out of minor plot-points (be it the Emperor's ability to create life or whatever) doesn't mean that the original hexalogy is unresolved.

 

This sequel trilogy is just...more...more for the sake of more; there's little that The Rise of Skywalker can do to change that, but I am all for seeing them try.

 

I'll say it again: In isolation, the Original Star Wars Trilogy is complete. However, the Saga is most certainly incomplete. Allow me to explain.

 

The Emperor, the Sith Master, was shown to have been thrown down a shaft, followed by an explosion. Anakin Sykwalker was redeemed, having turned back to the Light Side of the Force. The Special Edition of ROTJ implied that the Empire was defeated, but 'the Republic being reestablished' was not shown.

 

Not a single thread was left dangling? These threads remain:

 

- In Revenge of the Sith, the Emperor spoke of creating life, cheating death, and being afraid to loose power. "It's ironic, he could save others from death - but not himself." The Emperor tempted Anakin to the Dark Side with promised assistance and attainable Force powers that would be the answer to Anakin's problems and the explanation for his existence - not a "minor plot-point".

 

- Why did the Emperor expose himself to such precarious circumstances? Upon arriving to a battle station that he knew would be imminently attacked by the same fighting force that destroyed the first Death Star, he trusted his apprentice to summon Luke Skywalker to be turned to the Dark Side. Once face-to-face, the Emperor tempted Luke to kill him in anger. Father and son were then pitted against each other. If Luke defeated Vader, Sidious would take on a new, stronger apprentice. If Luke would "not turn", he would "be destroyed". Since Luke did not finish Vader and would "never turn to the Dark Side", The Emperor chose to kill the new Jedi Knight... and expected Vader to do nothing, only watch as his son was tortured while crying out to him for help. A bit risky, wouldn't you say? I wonder why The Emperor was willing put himself in extreme danger in so many ways? (Actually, I don't.)

 

- As "the last of the Jedi", what does Luke choose to do with his new responsibility?

- With the Sith destroyed, how can the Force be in Balance if only the Jedi remain?

- Was the Prophecy of the Chosen One fulfilled... or was it "misread", as Yoda suggested?

 

As you can see, many threads were already quite 'loose' or entirely unresolved. The Rise of Skywalker will make sense of the entire sequel trilogy and prove that the original hexalogy was, indeed, unresolved.

 

Finally @Chen G., care to present evidence that 'having a plan is more commercially dangerous than not having one'?

[Larry O 115]

The overwhelming majority of successful filmed narratives both theatrical and television were created without overarching plans in place. 

As the saying goes "If you want to hear God laugh, tell Him your plans." 

A good, recent, prominent example of an overarching plan being adhered to despite the narrative obviously pointing in a different direction is "How I Met Your Mother." 

[Ollie 1,059]

So, anyone think Rian Johnson’s new trilogy will never get made?

[Arpy 4,145]

According to Adam Driver in the Vanity Fair article, they had a plan of where TRoS would end up, but specifically states that the details hadn't been worked out. This seems to fit my theory that there was a plan, but they left the pieces open ended for each film in the trilogy, working up to where they wanted the characters to be in TRoS. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

3 hours ago, El Jefe said:

So, anyone think Rian Johnson’s new trilogy will never get made?

 

Why not?

Lucasfilm is more likely to dump the GoT writers one at this point.

[Ollie 1,059]

8 hours ago, Stefancos said:

 

Why not?

Lucasfilm is more likely to dump the GoT writers one at this point.

 

 

Yes, much better to send them out first so they can get cancelled right away.

[Demodex 557]

I'm confused.  So @Mattris is now praising the ST and TLJ?

[Mattris 416]

Not "praising" just yet... just recognizing that Lucasfilm had an elaborate plan for the ST, which can be proven using the new canon material.

 

However, I don't care for their devious ways: trolling/insulting Twitter comments, lying about not having a plan for the ST, allowing the media to run with false narratives ('The disenchanted Star Wars fans are sexist, racist, etc.!'), extending Kathleen Kennedy's contract, implying that SOLO bombed because of 'too much Star Wars')... all without a word of comfort to the upset/worried/confused fans. Also, I truly think the disgraceful Galaxy of Adventures was made primarily to harden the upset fans' disdain for Disney Star Wars.

 

I'm very interested to see how Lucasfilm - particularly JJ - handles the fan reaction to TROS, in the context of the ST and overall Saga. If he does what I think he's going to do, there's going to be a shit-storm of a response.

[Chen G. 3,944]

Having a general traejectory in mind isn't the same as an "elaborate plan".

 

Some elements are just inherent to the storytelling. For instance, a climactic showdown between Rey and Kylo (ending in the latter's defeat) isn't much of a "plan". Its just a natural conclusion to the traejectory of the story as set-up by The Force Awakens.

 

Its better than nothing, but lets not pretend its some kind of plan that will stand to scrutiny. Doing that is just setting yourself up for disappointment, I'm afraid.

[Mattris 416]

Using the substantive events and dialog from TFA, TLJ, and the canon material, I predict that Lucasfilm has much more planned than "a climactic showdown between Rey and Kylo". The overall story/trajectory of the ST will stand to scrutiny. It's everything else that won't, as Lucasfilm chose to be secretive in a devious way. But even when all is said and done, many  fans won't appreciate that kind of behavior because they will feel they were tricked.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Quote

It'severything else that won't, as Lucasfilm chose to be secretivein a devious way. Even when all is said and done, the fans won't appreciate that kind of behavior because they will feel they were tricked.

 

Obviously Disney/Lucasfilm should have worked with the fans, and embrace their input. To make the sequel trilogy the best it can be. 

[Chen G. 3,944]

 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

9 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

 

If the fans had had their say, his crappy TV show would have ended a lot better!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

[Chen G. 3,944]

14 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

If the fans had had their say, his crappy TV show would have ended a lot better!

 

Oh, I'm certainly not against taking input to one's heart.

 

But I think filmmakers should give fans what they need, rather than what they want/think they need.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

If the fans would have been involved with the sequel trilogy we would not have had all the issues it suffers from now.

 

1: TFA would have given a far more detailed account of the rise of the First Order, and explained its exact relation to the New Republic

 

2: The map to Skywalker would not have been a silly McGuffin.

 

3: The story behind Luke's lightsaber that he lost in TESB came into Maz's possestion would have been explained.

 

4: All the cut scenes with Leia, which apparently explained a lot of background story about both her character and the New Republic would have never been cut!

 

5: The well intended, but inappropriate for Star Wars SJW pandering would have been toned down.

 

6: Phasma would have featured a lot more.

 

7: Palpatine's return would have been foreshadowed more strongly.

 

8: Chewie and Leia would have definitely hugged! That this didnt happen is and UNFORGIVABLE oversight on Disney's part.

 

9: More Luke, we know more was planned but they pushed him back.

 

10: A better Snoke

 

11: John Williams would have either gone to London or the LSO would have been flown to LA to record the score! As an alternative having the score conducted in london by William Ross because of JW's advanced age would have been acceptable!

 

12: TLJ Too much to mention really, this one is a mess. The SJW pandering is far far too pronounced. The plot is shaky and atypical for star wars, The Canto Bight stuff adds NOTHING to the film at all. Luke should have been on the forefront of this film, and not as a reclusive, would be murderer hiding away from his responsibilities. THE FANS WOULD HAVE HAVE PERMITTED THIS! Rose should have been removed completely, same for Admiral Holdo. Both take precious screentime from Finn, Poe and probably Luke!

Instead I would have liked to have seen Lando. If they were doing this Canto Bight nonsense, why didnt they include Lando, it doesnt make any sense! Luke would not have died the wimpy death that he did! AAARRRGGGHHH!!! TOO MUCH!

[Chen G. 3,944]

12 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

TFA would have given a far more detailed account of the rise of the First Order, and explained its exact relation to the New Republic

 

Oh, well, yeah...**yawns**...um, I mean...**head drops momentarily** ... sure, that's certainly... **drops to floor with a thud, sound asleep**

 

Zzzzzzzzzzz...

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Zzzzzzz...

[A. A. Ron 1,740]

I agree that art is not a democracy, but except for the battle on the salt planet, I don't consider The Last Jedi to be art. It has no purpose, no overarching meaning, it doesn't even have much of a story, really. It's really just a bunch of loosely connected scenes strung together, most of which are meant to be surprising in some way even if it's inappropriate or the surprise itself doesn't make sense in the context of the series.

[Arpy 4,145]

@Stefancos How could the fans work on something J.J. Abrams, Lucas, Kasdan etc. couldn't yet see the full picture of?

 

How many fans do you bring on board? 10, 20, 100?

 

Are the fans screenwriters? Are they directors?

 

The reason why Martin says that art isn't a democracy is the fact that one fan's ideas aren't synonymous or equal to anothers. You'd have fights, unending arguments over the smallest details and it would be a messy ordeal. Who's to say who's a fan and who's right?

 

It's easy to say in hindsight had we known how the First Order played into the plot, establishing them and Snokes and maps and everything else that could be improved, could've been. I don't disagree on those points being improved either, I just don't think the fans have 'the answers' *rays from heaven, angelic choir*

 

 

[rough cut 1,714]

@Stefancos You forgot the hinted-at hook-up between Chewie and Maz. Ugh.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

They clearly have a history together which is completely unexplored!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Someome should do a Chewie ASMR video.

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

3 minutes ago, The Original said:

Someome should do a Chewie ASMR video.

 

I guess you're the one.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

 

[rough cut 1,714]

@Stefancos Your list is damn near spot on!

 

You should make a list for Solo - an equally horrible movie, or possibly worse!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Are you kidding?

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

On 5/25/2019 at 11:41 PM, Stefancos said:

If the fans would have been involved with the sequel trilogy we would not have had all the issues it suffers from now.

 

1: TFA would have given a far more detailed account of the rise of the First Order, and explained its exact relation to the New Republic

 

2: The map to Skywalker would not have been a silly McGuffin.

 

3: The story behind Luke's lightsaber that he lost in TESB came into Maz's possestion would have been explained.

 

4: All the cut scenes with Leia, which apparently explained a lot of background story about both her character and the New Republic would have never been cut!

 

5: The well intended, but inappropriate for Star Wars SJW pandering would have been toned down.

 

6: Phasma would have featured a lot more.

 

7: Palpatine's return would have been foreshadowed more strongly.

 

8: Chewie and Leia would have definitely hugged! That this didnt happen is and UNFORGIVABLE oversight on Disney's part.

 

9: More Luke, we know more was planned but they pushed him back.

 

10: A better Snoke

 

11: John Williams would have either gone to London or the LSO would have been flown to LA to record the score! As an alternative having the score conducted in london by William Ross because of JW's advanced age would have been acceptable!

 

12: TLJ Too much to mention really, this one is a mess. The SJW pandering is far far too pronounced. The plot is shaky and atypical for star wars, The Canto Bight stuff adds NOTHING to the film at all. Luke should have been on the forefront of this film, and not as a reclusive, would be murderer hiding away from his responsibilities. THE FANS WOULD HAVE HAVE PERMITTED THIS! Rose should have been removed completely, same for Admiral Holdo. Both take precious screentime from Finn, Poe and probably Luke!

Instead I would have liked to have seen Lando. If they were doing this Canto Bight nonsense, why didnt they include Lando, it doesnt make any sense! Luke would not have died the wimpy death that he did! AAARRRGGGHHH!!! TOO MUCH!

 

They need something to fix for the Special Editions!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I hope people realise this was ironic hyperbole?

[Ollie 1,059]

Shame cause you’re spot on about TLJ.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

1 hour ago, Stefancos said:

Are you kidding?

 

What are we doing here?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Where's Spock?

[rough cut 1,714]

Hahaha, that was irony? 😂

 

Well slap my ass and all me Sally.

[Arpy 4,145]

Someone shared this with me and thought I'd like it. I don't. It's also disheartening to read the YouTube comments and realize that we're fucked if this is how people wanted this duel to go.

 

[Holko 9,499]

Yeah that's absolutely horrific.

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

That's actually from the upcoming Specialer Edition.

[karelm 2,903]

On 5/25/2019 at 2:41 PM, Stefancos said:

If the fans would have been involved with the sequel trilogy we would not have had all the issues it suffers from now.

 

1: TFA would have given a far more detailed account of the rise of the First Order, and explained its exact relation to the New Republic

 

2: The map to Skywalker would not have been a silly McGuffin.

 

3: The story behind Luke's lightsaber that he lost in TESB came into Maz's possestion would have been explained.

 

4: All the cut scenes with Leia, which apparently explained a lot of background story about both her character and the New Republic would have never been cut!

 

5: The well intended, but inappropriate for Star Wars SJW pandering would have been toned down.

 

6: Phasma would have featured a lot more.

 

7: Palpatine's return would have been foreshadowed more strongly.

 

8: Chewie and Leia would have definitely hugged! That this didnt happen is and UNFORGIVABLE oversight on Disney's part.

 

9: More Luke, we know more was planned but they pushed him back.

 

10: A better Snoke

 

11: John Williams would have either gone to London or the LSO would have been flown to LA to record the score! As an alternative having the score conducted in london by William Ross because of JW's advanced age would have been acceptable!

 

12: TLJ Too much to mention really, this one is a mess. The SJW pandering is far far too pronounced. The plot is shaky and atypical for star wars, The Canto Bight stuff adds NOTHING to the film at all. Luke should have been on the forefront of this film, and not as a reclusive, would be murderer hiding away from his responsibilities. THE FANS WOULD HAVE HAVE PERMITTED THIS! Rose should have been removed completely, same for Admiral Holdo. Both take precious screentime from Finn, Poe and probably Luke!

Instead I would have liked to have seen Lando. If they were doing this Canto Bight nonsense, why didnt they include Lando, it doesnt make any sense! Luke would not have died the wimpy death that he did! AAARRRGGGHHH!!! TOO MUCH!

 

I wish Mark Hamill would have had a voice because his story ideas are quite good and would have made a better story. 

“You can still have me come in at the very end,” Hamill outlines. “But how about this? Leia’s trying to contact me telepathically. She gets frustrated because there’s no answer so she rushes to the new Death Star [the Starkiller base]… and she almost gets there but she’s stopped by two Stormtroopers. Just before she’s abducted, one Stormtrooper turns to the other and blows him away, pulls off his helmet and says “Hi sis, I’m here to rescue you.”

Presumably, this would have taken place around the time Han Solo gets brutally killed by his son, Kylo Ren, as Hamill explains: “It would have been more effective for people who have a history with Han Solo to witness his death and be unable to stop it.”

So, no wordless cameo, no silent contemplation of Han’s death in The Last Jedi. Just one final reunion and a moment that, as Hamill puts it, “would have blown the roof off.”

 

There are rumors that George Lucas might be a story consultant on IX which I think would be wise move.  Doesn't mean JJ has to do them but it's wise to hear him out because his story ideas are very good and obviously true to the original characters.  Where he fails is on details and execution.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Story consultant isn't enough. If Lucas had come up with the entire storyline of the ST, it might have made more sense.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Actors are there to act. And if they do have "ideas" it's usually for the sake of their own character, rather than the overall story.

 

 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Lucas doesn't maintain the sort of familiar relationships with actors. His attitude is more of a professional he's here to do his job, you're here to do yours.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

His wife divorced him claiming he was an emotional autist! 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

A whaat??

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I wonder what the current wife thinks of him?

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

She probably thinks he's rich!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

She's rich too!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Anyone else enjoy the Star Wars/Golden Girls crossover?