Star Wars Disenchantment

[Mattris 416]

POSSIBLE  EPISODE IX  SPOILERS

 

Having pieced together the clues and cryptic language in the Star Wars canon material and films (including the first 6 Episodes), cracking their code in the process, I am no longer "pissed off" with the TFA and TLJ. I can't say I appreciate Disney/Lucasfilm's deviousness and dismissive / rude behavior, but I realize it has been part of their epic distraction / trolling job.

 

From the very beginning, it was known 'mystery box' writer/producer/director JJ Abrams' plan to misdirect the masses into thinking he simply remade ANH and had little-to-no involvement with TLJ. They are making it up as they go! This is utter nonsense, as the canon material proves otherwise. (Shame only a relative few bothered to look into it in any significant way.)

 

Kylo has ulterior motives... and has been trying to save Rey from herself... and ultimately the galaxy from Palpatine, who Kylo knows is not yet actually dead... and could return unless he intervenes.

 

Palpatine to Anakin: "He had such a knowledge of the dark side that he could even keep the ones he cared about... from dying."

 

Kylo/Ben to Vader's helmet: "Forgive me. I feel it again... the pull to the light. Supreme Leader senses it. Show me again... the power of the darkness, and I'll let nothing stand in our way. Show me, Grandfather, and I will finish what you started."

 

Ben to his father: "I'm being torn apart. I know what I have to do, but I don't know it I have the strength to do it."

 

Rey to Ben:"You're afraid... that you will never be as strong as Darth Vader!"

 

As featured in the Vader comics and Vader Immortal VR game, bringing back Padme from death was Vader's obsession.

 

What this is all point towards: Ben Solo has being sinking himself into the dark side in order to understand how to finally defeat Palpatine... and will resurrect Han Solo and Luke.

 

"Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense."

 

"No one's ever really gone."

 

Rey is not a Hero's Journey. She has been presented as a well-intentioned person with an unexplained affinity for the Force, including the ability to acquire the Force abilities of Force users who use their powers on her... so far Kylo and Snoke. (Luke was wise enough not to try.) Rey will acquire Kylo's newly-acquired 'Force resurrection' ability and attempt to resurrect her parents... that do not exist. Instead, Rey will resurrect her creator: Palpatine, who will use her body as a vessel to return 'in the flesh'. 

 

"Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design."

 

Luke to Rey: "This is not going to go the way you think."

 

But it will probably go the way I think.

[Arpy 4,145]

10 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Luke said to Rey, "This is not going to go the way you think."

 

But it will go the way I think.

If it doesn't? Seems like a lot to set up and defeat in one film.

[Chen G. 3,943]

"I saw bullshit. I sensed it building in him. I saw it in moments during his posting. But then I looked inside his last post, and it was beyond what I ever imagined."

 

I mean? Kylo wanting to - all along, mind you - save Rey from herself? Resurrect Han Solo and Luke? @Mattris, I think you’ve missed the mark here. Wildly.

 

Which is of course fine, but like @Arpy I think it’s very likely that you’re just gearing yourself up for a massive disappointment.

[Mattris 416]

You think I'm wrong, @Chen G. ? Based on what evidence... surface level events of the events only? Trust me, you are being tricked. My predictions are based on canon events and quotes - not just summaries.

[Chen G. 3,943]

We know Rey - she’s a good person, and no convoluted revelation in Rise of Skywalker is going to change that. Conversely, we know Kylo Ren - he’s a bad person, and again no revelation in the film is going to change or absolve that.

 

These fan theories are too out there to feel earned on a character level. I don’t believe JJ will go that far.

[Mattris 416]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

We know Rey - she’s a good person, and no convoluted revelation in Rise of Skywalker is going to change that. Conversely, we know Kylo Ren - he’s a bad person, and again no revelation in the film is going to change or absolve that.

 

Rey means well, but she is has been shown to be selfish and naive... to a fault. She has also been tempted to the dark side numerous times. The novelizations make this clearer, and she even hears a voice in her mind call out to her to kill Kylo at the end of TFA. In TLJ, the dark side cave calls to her, and Luke realizes that she "went straight to the dark" and "didn't even try to resist it."

 

Rey is obsessed with learning about her parents and her "place in all this". Kylo seems to know his place... but wants to 'kill the past' and his parents. Don't think for a second that these directly opposing character motivations are unrelated to the overall story.

 

I will present more evidence and expand my theory. One more clue for now, from the TFA novelization:

 

Maz Kanata to Rey: "You already know the truth. Whomever you're waiting for on Jakku, they're never coming back. But there's someone who still could. With your help."

[Arpy 4,145]

I actually like these guesses @Mattris

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

Palpatine's return was planned from the beginning. Rey is not the hero. Kylo has ulterior motives... and has been trying to save Rey from herself... and ultimately the galaxy from Palpatine, who Kylo knows is not yet actually dead.

 

Kylo/Ben to Vader's helmet: "I will finished what you started."

Ben to his father: "I'm being torn apart. I know what I have to do, but I don't know it I have the strength to do it."

 

As she has been proven to do with Kylo and Snoke, Rey will acquire Kylo's Force resurrection ability and attempt to resurrect her parents... that do not exist. Instead Rey will resurrect her creator: Palpatine, who will use her body as a vessel to return 'in the flesh'. "Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design."

 

I'm being 100% serious. 

I can't wait for this to be TLJ: The Backlash (PART II) 

[Chen G. 3,943]

The issue, some of this does sit with what (admittedly little) we’ve seen so far.

[mstrox 6,647]

I think the thing that irks me about the return of Palpatine is that his entire character drive is just power.  I find the villains acting out of anger - Maul (beyond the sketch seen in TPM, the character seen in TCW/Rebels/Solo/etc), Vader, Kylo - those, to me, are actually interesting and effective villains.  I know he's coming to some extent, but the idea of Palpatine masterminding anything is just so ho-hum to me.  I'm hoping that whatever they do, the movie stays true to the characters - Rey, Finn, Poe, Kylo, Rose, etc. - and Abrams et. al. don't let the twisting machinery of plot interrupt that.

[A. A. Ron 1,738]

6 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I don’t Rey will be undone. There’s nothing in the previous films to suggest this, and in fact it’s crucial that she won’t, unless the film wants the Jedi to end.

 

Or maybe, Kylo Ren will get an awful redemption arc and Luke's line from the trailer -- "A hundred generations live in you now" -- is directed toward him instead of Rey.

[Holko 9,499]

17 minutes ago, mstrox said:

I know he's coming to some extent, but the idea of Palpatine masterminding anything is just so ho-hum to me.

These contingency plan things sound about as satisfyingly in-character to me as Voldemort having a goddamned kid.

[A. A. Ron 1,738]

5 hours ago, Mattris said:

Trust me, you are being tricked

 

Why should we trust you? Your posts read like conspiracy theories. You never have any real evidence, just your own stupendously warped "logic." The others in this thread think you're likely to be massively disappointed when this movie comes out, but it's not just likely, it's practically guaranteed.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

12 minutes ago, Holko said:

These contingency plan things sound about as satisfyingly in-character to me as Voldemort having a goddamned kid.

 

Hmmmmm, perhaps lending credence to the "leaks" being the pre-Abrams version of the film worked on Jack Thorne, the mind behind Cursed Child.....  

[Mattris 416]

2 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

Why should we trust you? Your posts read like conspiracy theories. You never have any real evidence, just your own stupendously warped "logic." The others in this thread think you're likely to be massively disappointed when this movie comes out, but it's not just likely, it's practically guaranteed.

 

First of all, my theories are based on canon events and (very specifically written) language. I already presented a bunch of relevant quotes from the films... and will post direct quotes from the books later on.

 

The fact is, Disney/Lucasfilm have been presenting themselves in a quite an unorthodox manner in regards to Star Wars. They...

 

... (seemingly) gave us a remake of ANH featuring a Mary Sue lead... then a subversive Ep. VIII.

... gave (Twitter troll & proven liar) Rian Johnson a Star Wars trilogy before his first movie was even released. 

... allowed dozens of rude/dismissive comments from Lucasfilm employees. ("We don't care.")

... allowed the media to run with false narratives directed a critical/concerned (racist/sexist!) fans.

... said they're making the trilogy up as they go.

... produced an epic failure (SOLO).

 

Disney CEO Bob Iger blames the fan disenchantment and significantly dropping revenue on ("too much, too soon") and just recently, admitted that George Lucas felt "betrayed" when they didn't use his story treatments.

 

Any one of these events should raise suspicion. But all of them? This smells beyond fishy. It's obvious to me that they are trolling the masses on a scale never before seen in entertainment. Some would say these film makers are simply incompetent, but I don't believe that for a second.

 

Disney's unique handling of Star Wars in its first years of ownership is sure to go down in history, regardless of how the Saga concludes.

[Fabulin 3,510]

.

[Chen G. 3,943]

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

Lucasfilm have been presenting themselves in a quite an unorthodox manner in regards to Star Wars. They[...]said they're making the trilogy up as they go.

 

That's classic Lucasfilm! Always has been.

 

I much prefer contemporary Lucasfilm being honest about making it up, as opposed to George Lucas' blatant lies about having devised his stories from the get-go.

 

2 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

Or maybe, Kylo Ren will get an awful redemption arc and Luke's line from the trailer -- "A hundred generations live in you now" -- is directed toward him instead of Rey.

 

I should hope not.

[Mattris 416]

Of course Luke's lines in the trailers are directed to his nephew... always have been... all the way back to the TFA trailer from April 2015 ("The Force is strong in my family..."). Luke trained Ben as a Jedi for over a decade. Who the hell is Rey?

[Chen G. 3,943]

so certain are you!

[Disco Stu 15,495]

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

 

First of all, my theories are based on canon events and language. I already presented a bunch of relevant quotes from the films... and will post direct quotes from the books later on.

 

The fact is, Disney/Lucasfilm have been presenting themselves in a quite an unorthodox manner in regards to Star Wars. They...

 

... (seemingly) gave us a remake of ANH featuring a Mary Sue lead... then a subversive Ep. VIII.

... gave (Twitter troll & proven liar) Rian Johnson a Star Wars trilogy before his first movie was even released. 

... allowed dozens of rude/dismissive comments from Lucasfilm employees. ("We don't care.")

... allowed the media to run with false narratives directed a critical/concerned (racist/sexist!) fans.

... said they're making the trilogy up as they go.

... produced an epic failure (SOLO).

 

Disney CEO Bob Iger blames the fan disenchantment and significantly dropping revenue on ("too much, too soon") and just recently, admitted that George Lucas felt "betrayed" when they didn't use his story treatments.

 

Any one of these events should raise suspicion. But all of them? This smells beyond fishy. It's obvious to me that they are trolling the masses on a scale never before seen in entertainment. Some would say these film makers are simply incompetent, but I don't believe that for a second.

 

At this point, Disney's unique handling of Star Wars in its first years of ownership is sure to go down in history, regardless of how the Saga concludes.

 

The motivated cognition on display here is absolutely fascinating.  I guess I'm glad you spend all this mental effort on something like Star Wars instead of anything of consequence.

[Mattris 416]

49 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Lucasfilm being honest about making it up, as opposed to George Lucas' blatant lies about having devised his stories from the get-go.

 

After all I've presented, you still think that? Now I'm curious if you'll ever change your mind... even after IX is released. What if Lucasfilm finally admit that everything regarding the Sequel Trilogy was planned in advance? Kathleen Kennedy is already on camera say that 'Palpatine's return was planned from the beginning'.

[Chen G. 3,943]

It costs me nothing to be proven wrong.

 

But I don't think I would be.

[Mattris 416]

8 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

The motivated cognition on display here is absolutely fascinating.  I guess I'm glad you spend all this mental effort on something like Star Wars instead of anything of consequence.

 

Who says I don't? What's truly "fascinating" is that, with the Sequel Trilogy, millions of people around the world have been fooled... while the facts and answers have been (hidden) in plain slight all along.

 

4 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

It costs me nothing to be proven wrong.

 

But I don't think I would be.

 

I notice that you rarely answer my direct questions.

[Chen G. 3,943]

I'm the only one who answers straight to you.

 

As I was saying, if substantial evidence is provided for a robust premeditation of the Sequel Trilogy's plot (not just the odd plot point here and there), I'll be happy to be proven wrong.

[Mattris 416]

@Chen G. I look forward to your answers to these questions:

 

- At SWC 2019 (in April), Kathleen Kennedy said that 'Palpatine's return was planned from the beginning'. Do you believe her?

 

- Do you think JJ and L. Kasdan wrote all of those lines (above) without an idea of their (intended) meaning? Or perhaps you think that, in making his own movie with 'no criteria or limitations', Rian Johnson scrapped JJ's plans for the trilogy. But how would Johnson have known they were scrapped if 'they didn't meet before he wrote TLJ'?

 

- Do you think John Williams was told of Rey's origin/fate so that he could compose her theme accordingly, with The Emperor and Vader Themes interwoven?

 

- If Disney/Lucasfilm finally admit that the Sequel Trilogy was planned in advance, will you believe them?

[Chen G. 3,943]

- I heard something to that effect. Like I said, having certain plot points in mind is nice, but it hardly makes the whole of the trilogy premeditated. I do know that in George Lucas' original concept for nine episodes, the confrontation with the Emperor was to take place in episode IX, but clearly this was the natural resolution to the story (the climactic confrontation with the arch-villain) rather a result of some grand plot scheme.

 

- I don't think Johnson scrapped anything. I think - or rather, I know based on Johnson's own admission, and that of Abrams - that he was given a free hand at writing his film. I mean, I'm sure there were some broad guidelines (probably unspoken) such as "don't kill-off Rey" but again, that's just a natural part of the storytelling rather than the workings of some master plan.

 

- I don't think John Williams was told anything. John Williams' process is a simple one: he shows up, sees reels of film, and starts composing. He doesn't read scripts and doesn't attend story meetings: he only scores what's in front of him on the screen. Some of the similarities you hear between themes are the result of the Star Wars style rather than any deliberate connection. Its like saying that the words Empire and Jedi are etymologically connected because they both feature the characters e and i.

 

- Depends. I'd love to see a story treatment or synopsis of Episode IX dated to 2014. Somehow, I doubt such a document exists.

[Mattris 416]

- For Johnson not to have scrapped anything, JJ would not have had treatments for VIII and IX. Is that what you think?

 

- If so, it would follow that you think that JJ and L. Kasdan wrote all of those lines (that I quoted above) without an idea of their (intended) meaning. Is that what you think?

 

- Do you believe Johnson when he says he didn't meet with JJ before he wrote TLJ?

 

You clearly have no idea how John Williams composes for films. He meets with the director to discuss the story/characters and often spots the film to decide how the score should sound, where music should be present, etc.

 

And if you think the similarities in Rey's Theme to the villains' themes can simply be attributed to 'Star Wars style', you grossly underestimate him and JJ Abrams. You honestly think all of those low-high-mid ordered note groupings in the cadence of her theme mean nothing, along with the abundance of minor thirds?

[Fargo 297]

3 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

 

Why should we trust you? 

 

The dude nailed Palpy making a comeback prior to the trailer being released. Why shouldn't we trust him?

[Holko 9,499]

1 hour ago, Disco Stu said:

 

The motivated cognition on display here is absolutely fascinating.  I guess I'm glad you spend all this mental effort on something like Star Wars instead of anything of consequence.

2 months before the movie comes out, no less, instead of just waiting a bit and finding out what it's gonna be!

[Naïve Old Fart 9,498]

Ok. This is a serious question, so don't all laugh, at the same time, but...does anyone think that Han might just have some sort of cameo, in TROS?

[Chen G. 3,943]

Maybe, like a dream sequence or apparition of some kind?

 

Its not a bad idea, necessarily.

[mstrox 6,647]

It would only work in a flashback - I'd rather they not.

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

6 minutes ago, Richard said:

Ok. This is a serious question, so don't all laugh, at the same time, but...does anyone think that Han might just have some sort of cameo, in TROS?

 

He's not really dead after all!

[Chen G. 3,943]

Concluding films tend not to be big on flashbacks.

 

Plus, flashbacks aren't a Star Wars thing.

[Mattris 416]

Ben Solo will bring back Han and Luke and will assist him in defeating Palpatine, once and for all. Lucasfilm has been quite clear (and repetitive):

 

"No one's ever really gone."

[Naïve Old Fart 9,498]

2 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

He's not really dead after all!

...not as long as we remember him.

 

2 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Concluding films tend not to be big on flashbacks.

Ooh, that's an idea.

I'd like to see some resolution for the character, rather than being shafted by his own son.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

Han doesn't have the Force, he can't be brought back in a physical ghost form like Luke can.

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

2 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Ben Solo will bring back Han and Luke and will assist him in defeating Palpatine, once and for all. Lucasfilm has been quite clear (and repetitive):

 

"No one's ever really gone."

 

Then I guess Jar-Jar will return as well. Yesss!

[Chen G. 3,943]

I've long said that if JJ Abrams wants IX to conclude the story nicely, including the prequels, one of the things that's ought to happen is for Jar Jar to appear only to be brutally murdered.

 

6 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

Han doesn't have the Force, he can't be brought back in a physical ghost form like Luke can.

 

Don't tell that to Mattris.

 

Besides, the whole ida of ressurecting the dead undermines the stakes of the story. Would that they won't. Plus, its the sort of thing where introducing it in the ninth entry will have people like: "where was this ability for the past eight movies?"

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

4 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

Han doesn't have the Force, he can't be brought back in a physical ghost form like Luke can.

 

But they could clone him, and then, like, make an army of clones!

[Fargo 297]

8 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

But they could clone him, and then, like, make an army of clones!

 

An army of Hans. On an open field!

[Holko 9,499]

10 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

Han doesn't have the Force, he can't be brought back in a physical ghost form like Luke can.

Thankfully the cast stumbles upon Palps' Spaarti-cylinders and 3PO kept a lock of Han's hair from 3 movies ago, so at least they can have Haan Solo to keep them company.

[Mattris 416]

Just thinking about Yoda semi-materializing in TLJ... to interact with the physical world: summoning lightning and hitting Luke with his cane. I think the Force ghosts are making substantial progress in the realm of the Cosmic Force.

 

My prediction is that Yoda, Luke, Anakin, and maybe even Obi-wan will physically return without Ben Solo... as the Force auto-balances when Palpatine returns.

 

Ben brings his father back to life. Rey brings back her 'father'... but it will mean the death of her, as he takes her body. How shocking!

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

Nah, JW would refuse to score the film if Rey died.

[Chen G. 3,943]

7 minutes ago, Mattris said:

My prediction is that Yoda, Luke, Anakin, and maybe even Obi-wan will physically return without Ben Solo

 

So, basically...The Avengers?

 

No, thank you.

[Pellaeon 593]

I wouldn’t enjoy a movie like this. I like the Force in very small doses.

[Fabulin 3,510]

.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,498]

32 minutes ago, Pellaeon said:

I like the Force in very small doses.

Speak for yourself, dearie! 

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

Every single Jedi that ever existed will come back to life just to fight Palpatine. It'll be 9,999,999,999,999 Jedi versus Palpatine... and it will take place on Mustafar!

[SteveMc 2,674]

Star Wars: Endgame

[Sweeping Strings 2,344]

Palpatine will turn out to be Capaldi's Doctor gone bad. 

It's the Star Wars/Who crossover we've all been waiting for!