Star Wars Disenchantment

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

People romanticise the "planned out" method because they like they mystique the author offers and the clues thrown at them. Makes them feel like they're in on the thought that the author has put into it.

[Chen G. 3,948]

I mean, when a trilogy is truly planned out, it is something I rather admire. I would have liked it if this trilogy was like that.

 

But, because its evident from the outset that it wasn't, there's only so much I'm willing to get worked up on the matter, as opposed to the likes of @Mattris.

[Mattris 416]

Well, let's see. My position is supported by...

 

- Palpatine and Darth Vader being mentioned - or heavily featured - in every form of canon material (dating back to the earliest volumes).

- The fact that a prominent saga-spanning story through-line exists, with a substantial amount of evidence from the films and canon material that elaborates and ties-in to the films.

- The fact that Palpatine was the primary villain in the third installment of the other trilogies.

- The death of Snoke in VIII, making way for Palpatine to be the primary villain in IX.

- Hints of the Emperor and Vader's themes within Rey's Theme, as well as the scores. (With The Emperor's Theme played prominently, note-for-note in TLJ during a major scene.)

- The fact that no explanation for Rey has been presented, while it has been heavily implied that Anakin was Force-created by Palpatine (and even explicitly stated by Palpatine in an pre-shooting script for ROTS).

- The unfulfilling deaths of Han and Luke.

- Simple logic: With so much at stake - including professional legacies, billions in (potential lost) revenue, and the support of a massive, passionate fandom - the film-makers would not have approached a trilogy of this magnitude film-to-film without a basic story and the character arcs and motivations locked in.

- Rian Johnson and other Lucasfilm employees infamous for antagonizing and trolling disenchanted/confused fans. ("Manbabies", "assholes", "We don't care.", Fanboy Tears mugs, etc.)

- Lucasfilm allowing the mainstream / access media to run with generalizing / false narratives (The upset fans are racist and sexist!) without issuing any form of appeasement or reassurance.

- The very latest comments from Lucasfilm President and trilogy Executive producer, stating that they planned Palpatine's return and left 'set-ups in plain view' in the films.

- The fact that writer/producer/director JJ Abrams is well known to be the keeper of the 'Mystery Box', with major surprises and twist endings in all of his projects.

- The shooting title for Episode IX was trIXie. (They even bragged about making 'trIXie' shirts for the cast and crew.)

- The title of the final film of the saga is The Rise of Skywalker.

 

"If they had the bloody thing figured out, why would each film need pre-production time? Why would they need to write a script for each film individually?" Simple: Disney/Lucasfilm pre-established that the films would be released two years apart, with a vast amount of canon material to be released in the interim. No need to rush the production of the films and make them all in one go. Focusing on each film, one at a time, two years apart, allowed a less hectic approach so they could make sure they achieved their story-telling goals.

 

Kathleen Kennedy's 'making it up as they go' comment was simply a lighthearted call-back to a line from Raiders of the Lost Ark. It is not proof that they hadn't conceived the basic story outline and main character arcs. Lucasfilm just hadn't worked out the plot details, minor characters, or scripts. And the films did not have "different filmmakers each". It was just JJ and Rian Johnson, with JJ receiving Executive Producer credit on all of them. (In all likelihood, Abrams and Kasdan conceived the basic story outline for the trilogy, with Johnson adding new characters and details for the middle film that he directed. Then with a two year break, JJ was always planned to return for the final episode.)

 

Making the Sequel Trilogy "cheaper" was clearly not Lucasfilm's goal. Nor was presenting the trilogy in this manner designed for maximum short-term profit. With an incredibly divided, unenthusiastic, and confused fandom going into IX, this should be obvious.

@Chen G. You were wrong when you said Williams just "shows up, sees reels of film, and starts composing. He doesn't read scripts and doesn't attend story meetings: he only scores what's in front of him on the screen". You were wrong about Palpatine returning and it being a good idea. You will be proven wrong about underestimating Abrams ('No plan.') and Williams ('No clues within Rey's Theme.'). I'm shocked that you claimed that the musical similarities in Rey's Theme are "like saying that the words Empire and Jedi are etymologically connected because they both feature the characters e and i." What an ignorant, uneducated claim.

 

Mark my words, you will be proven wrong about everything.

[Demodex 557]

Jesus Christ, I don't even understand what the hell Mattriss is arguing about anymore.  We know Palpatine is in Episode 9. What's the problem now?

 

I skipped the last page and a half but the last post I read argued that Lucas is a master storyteller.  I think the prequels prove this to be false. 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

What's the point in all this speculation when the movie will be out in two months anyway? To get alpha-nerd points for maximum oracle abilities? It's always been one of the weirdest idiosyncrasies of the SW fandom online.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

1 hour ago, Thekthithm said:

What's the point in all this speculation when the movie will be out in two months anyway? To get alpha-nerd points for maximum oracle abilities? It's always been one of the weirdest idiosyncrasies of the SW fandom online.

 

We need the XP to rank up.

[rough cut 1,714]

It should be clear by now that the Star Wars storyline is just hodge podge of loose ideas.

 

The first one (IV) and second one (V) are hardly connected at all, except for the fact that they have the same charachters in them.

 

V set up the storyline that has echoed in every SW-movie ever since its release: ”I am your father.”

 

To build a universe around that isn’t planning, it’s just that that has become the cornerstone of the SW-universe and they were never able to top it or move beyond it.

[Mattris 416]

@rough cut Do you have any evidence that supports the 'no plan for the Sequel Trilogy' theory? Saying George Lucas didn't have a plan for the OT doesn't count.

 

17 hours ago, Demodex said:

Jesus Christ, I don't even understand what the hell Mattriss is arguing about anymore.  We know Palpatine is in Episode 9. What's the problem now?

 

Without evidence, Chen claims that the especially intriguing lines of dialog in TFA - as they occur during major scenes - had no intended meaning... and that John Williams wasn't told anything about the story or characters of the trilogy (in order to reference in his score) because, he insists, there was no plan for the Saga-ending Sequel Trilogy, even when a cornucopia of evidence (including basic logic) points to the contrary.

 

Chen also said it was "absolutely adorable that think Kylo was always planning on betraying Snoke" and that "its cute that you want to treat them as some great pieces of set-up for the final film, but they're really not" without providing evidence.

 

17 hours ago, Demodex said:

I skipped the last page and a half but the last post I read argued that Lucas is a master storyteller.  I think the prequels prove this to be false. 

 

I said that George Lucas was a master at crafting stories. Screenwriting, a major issue of the Prequel Trilogy, is not the same thing. The Prequels could have been significantly better films had the scripts been polished, a different young Anakin cast (His second choice would have been perfect!), no Jar Jar Binks (or any foolish characters featured), and Episodes II and III utilizing much less (obvious) green-screen and significant reliance on CGI.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

6 hours ago, Mattris said:

Without evidence, Chen claims that the especially intriguing lines of dialog in TFA - as they occur during major scenes - had no intended meaning... and that John Williams wasn't told anything about the story or characters of the trilogy (in order to reference in his score) because, he insists, there was no plan for the Saga-ending Sequel Trilogy, even when a cornucopia of evidence (including basic logic) points to the contrary.

Chen’s argument is the most logical and simple explanation. It fits with the way these movies are made and the nature of film productions in general. By saying there is some sort of master plan at work, you are the one making extraordinary claims and the burden of proof rests squarely and solely on your shoulders.
 

Here’s a tip for you. Using big words might wow people here and there, but it doesn’t actually make your arguments stronger. I admittedly only skim your arguments, but as for your “cornucopia of evidence,” all I see is a fan building wild speculation around every comment he finds even mildly interesting from any writer, director, producer, or actor involved in the making of these films. The comments these people make to the media aren’t usually true hints at anything, they’re just random nonsense meant to get people excited about the movie. That’s all this stuff is — Marketing. Just like George Lucas, Kennedy and company absolutely want some fans to think they have a master plan, but if they do, the plan is to sell more tickets, not tell some story that’s been planned out for 40 years.

[Chen G. 3,948]

I will say, given how fans were bewildered to learn there was no such plan, one can almost understand George Lucas for lying about having a plan himself all those years ago. The man knew his audience.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

At the end of the day it's all about the scharole.

[Mattris 416]

3 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

Chen’s argument is the most logical and simple explanation. It fits with the way these movies are made and the nature of film productions in general. By saying there is some sort of master plan at work, you are the one making extraordinary claims and the burden of proof rests squarely and solely on your shoulders.
 

Here’s a tip for you. Using big words might wow people here and there, but it doesn’t actually make your arguments stronger. I admittedly only skim your arguments, but as for your “cornucopia of evidence,” all I see is a fan building wild speculation around every comment he finds even mildly interesting from any writer, director, producer, or actor involved in the making of these films. The comments these people make to the media aren’t usually true hints at anything, they’re just random nonsense meant to get people excited about the movie. That’s all this stuff is — Marketing. Just like George Lucas, Kennedy and company absolutely want some fans to think they have a master plan, but if they do, the plan is to sell more tickets, not tell some story that’s been planned out for 40 years.

 

It should be obvious that "logical and simple" have not been Lucasfilm's modem operandi as of late. The fact is, you have no idea how "these movies are made" and have presented no evidence to support your 'no plan' theory. (Pointing to George Lucas' approach doesn't count.) On the other hand, I have presented a vast array of evidence of a "master plan at work". You might want to do more than 'skim my arguments'.

 

Abrams' and Kennedy's latest comments make it clear that they did have a plan, so actually "you are the one making extraordinary claims and the burden of proof rests squarely and solely on your shoulders." Also, I did not say this story had "been planned out for 40 years" - only that this trilogy's story and primary characters were planned during the pre-production of TFA.

 

What you call "wild speculation around every comment" from those making current Star Wars, I call decoding their intentionally-presented clues. My approach is merited, as Daisy Ridley said in a produced bit for Good Morning America after Star Wars Celebration: 'Our comments now don't seem to make sense, but later, you'll be like, Oh, that's what they meant by that!'  So claiming "the comments these people make to the media aren’t usually true hints at anything, they’re just random nonsense meant to get people excited about the movie" has been specifically addressed and squashed by the lead actress. So not only are they giving us clues to their plan, they're telling us that they're giving clues.

 

Yes, "this stuff" is marketing. Shame nearly everyone thinks the stuff means nothing when these film makers are utilizing grossly unorthodox methods at every turn to draw attention to their trIXie plan for the Sequel Trilogy. This includes Bob Iger saying that George Lucas felt "betrayed" when his Sequel Trilogy treatments weren't used... in his book released just 3 months before release of Episode IX.

 

If you think Lucasfilm's approach to marketing "is to sell more tickets", you are completely out of touch, as a significant percentage of Star Wars fans would be happy to scrub this trilogy from canon if they could. I say that Disney/Lucasfilm expected fans' ignorant/upset/confused frame of mind - even counted on it - as the unexpected grandeur of Episode IX will only smack the unsuspecting audience that much harder.

 

"Here’s a tip for you." Criticizing my use of "big words" only makes you look petty. John Williams used "cornucopia" while introducing his Harry Potter music back in 2002, so pardon me for using it in this forum.

[Chen G. 3,948]

@Mattris is there more to Kathleen Kennedy or JJ Abrams or whomever claiming this trilogy was premeditated?

 

I'm not being facetious - its a point of interest of mine.

[Mattris 416]

Sure, the early canon novels feature tons of clues. Star Wars: Aftermath: Empire's End is a Star Wars novel by Chuck Wendig, published on February 21, 2017. It is the third book of the Aftermath trilogy, set after the events of Return of the Jedi.

 

Immediately after the The Rise of Skywalker teaser was released:

 

The book features Palpatine before his 'death', as well as details of his Contingency. The second book in the trilogy, Aftermath: Life Debt (published July 12, 2016), also contains pertinent Palpatine backstory, scenes, and references.

[Chen G. 3,948]

That's all fine and well, but is there any more of Kathleen Kennedy or JJ Abrams on record as having laid the tracks for this earlier?

[Mattris 416]

That's just it. Early on, they did not want to claim credit for their plan. In fact, they made it a point to say they didn't have a plan... on multiple occasions. This - on top of the 'fact' that TFA was a 'basically remake of ANH with a Mary Sure character' - led to significant pubic confusion and discourse.

 

This was their strategy from the start of it all: People (fans) would believe their lies ('No plan for the Sequel Trilogy.'), and later think their 'We actually had a plan all along.' claims were a lie. All evidence indicates that this is part of the 'grand plan' to keep the masses confused and upset going into IX... at which point they'll be blown away, having not seen any of it coming. (That is, unless you were able to decode their swath of clues, rewarding those who took the time and effort to consume the canon, ponder the films' events/lines, watch their interviews, Twitter feeds, etc.)

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I see...

[SteveMc 2,674]

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

 

4 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

I see...

 

And you have no place in this department or in this university.

[rough cut 1,714]

[Score 770]

28 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

I see...

 

If your real message is your signature, that was clever!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

[Chen G. 3,948]

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

That's just it.

 

Well than I'm disinclined to acquiesce to your claims.

 

 

Means "no".

[Mattris 416]

Had Lucasfilm stated that they had a plan early on, the mystery and intrigue would have been severely diminished... and that's not JJ Abrams' style. Their current claims directly contradict their earlier ones. That's part of the trick to keep the audience confused and distracted.

 

They were either lying before ('No plan.') or they're lying now ('We've had a plan.'). All real-world evidence points to the former being the case.

 

My cIaims are based on factual evidence. After all that I've presented, @Chen G. , why continue to deny the obvious?

[Chen G. 3,948]

“The obvious?” All you have is one offhand statement by Kathleen Kennedy as she’s moving away to the next reporter. I don’t buy it.

[Mattris 416]

Then you, like so many others, have been fooled. I expect Episode IX and its aftermath to be quite the journey to enlightenment... after the long road of ignorance, denial, and deceit.

[Chen G. 3,948]

You're not getting it.

 

A lot of your predictions may well end up being true, even though I personally don't like them.

 

But to say that these plot elements were all in the back of the filmmakers' mind as they were making The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi is something else entirely.

[Mattris 416]

No, @Chen G., it's you who are not getting it. My argument has no holes. Logic dictates that the filmmakers had a plan for the Sequel Trilogy from the beginning. The specific plot elements (and lines) in the films and canon are the evidence. They couldn't have been 'making it up as they go' since all of the dozens of canon works link together... impossible if there wasn't an over-arching plan for the principal characters and story, elements of which the Lucasfilm Story Group provided to the canon writers for elaboration.

 

After reading my logical explanations, what makes you think the filmmakers didn't have those plot elements in their minds as they were making The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi? Skepticism and contradiction are not valid arguments.

[mstrox 6,649]

This is the funniest shit on the internet 

[Score 770]

8 hours ago, Mattris said:

No, @Chen G., it's you who are not getting it. My argument has no holes. Logic dictates that the filmmakers had a plan for the Sequel Trilogy from the beginning. The specific plot elements (and lines) in the films and canon are the evidence. They couldn't have been 'making it up as they go' since all of the dozens of canon works link together... impossible if there wasn't an over-arching plan for the principal characters and story, elements of which the Lucasfilm Story Group provided to the canon writers for elaboration.

 

After reading my logical explanations, what makes you think the filmmakers didn't have those plot elements in their minds as they were making The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi? Skepticism and contradiction are not valid arguments.

 

Logic is an interesting topic. I suggest you to have a look at this list: 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

 

Particularly interesting are the items under "Relevance fallacies", such as

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_incredulity

 

 

 

[Mattris 416]

What evidence would you believe that indicates Lucasfilm had a plan for the Sequel Trilogy once TFA had completed pre-production? Do you understand why Kennedy, Johnson, and Abrams have released conflicting messaging on this matter?

[Arpy 4,145]

Just popping back in to say I'm disenchanted cereal brands aren't doing these anymore:

 

 

[Score 770]

6 minutes ago, Mattris said:

What evidence would you believe that indicates Lucasfilm had a plan for the Sequel Trilogy from its inception? Do you understand why Kennedy, Johnson, and Abrams have released conflicting messaging on this matter?

 

The evidence to that, or to the contrary, will be found in the movie, just wait a couple of months! There is absolutely no logical way to know it beforehand, because none of us witnessed the meetings between the creators of the movies. You know, I read your "theory" because I find parts of this thread quite funny, and I would even agree that some of the development lines that you suggest would not be out of place, and I might even like them, if they are appropriately realized. Does your theory constitute a plausible conclusion of the story? It is possible, why not, but this is a fantasy tale, and basically anything else can be done and justified within the context of the story. If magic (= Force) is possible, then anything can happen, there is no "logic" that you can decipher with absolute certainty: what you might find to be logical might be changed at will (therefore, it is not "logic"). For the same reason, the authors can literally do whatever they want and find a way to make it plausible (...or not) within the context of the story. If you expect them to do exactly what you think (or what anyone else thinks) because "logic dictates it", well, you'd better prepare yourself to be disappointed.

 

 

 

 

 

[Demodex 557]

Just think, in less than 3 months the movie will have blown us all away and we can all agree Star Wars is awesome and there will be no more of this pointless bickering.

[Chen G. 3,948]

I find it very unlikely that the film would satiate both myself and @Mattris.

[Oomoog the Ecstatic 314]

I have relevance software helping me find the masterpieces out there, so I don't care much about public ratings, but the best number for the average Joe I think is the % of 10/10s, as it's the closest to the "favorite polling" that is more nuanced: people usually choose 10/10 for very different more-intuitive reasons than they assign the other scores. 12% for TLJ, is pretty high, very close to Rogue One. But the scale gets exponentially larger (see Shawshank Redemption) so you have to interpret it slightly different than 1-10. 12% is high. But like I said I don't put huge weight into online scores.

[Mattris 416]

@Score  I posed two questions:

 

1. What evidence would you believe that indicates Lucasfilm had a plan for the Sequel Trilogy from its inception?
2. Do you understand why Kennedy, Johnson, and Abrams have released conflicting messaging on this matter? (Or... Why do think they released conflicting messaging regarding a 'plan'?)

 

Instead of answering, you advised me to "just wait a couple of months!" and said "There is absolutely no logical way to know it beforehand, because none of us witnessed the meetings between the creators". Witnessing meetings is not required to use logic based on the evidence at hand. The evidence I presented was wide-ranging, and all of the events and statements that I recalled - from the films, canon, and real-world - are true.

 

You also said "basically anything else can be done and justified within the context of the story." This is not the case, as JJ Abrams is limited by what has occurred in the previous films... and technically, the new canon material. He can not do "anything", and he even issued a statement: "If you look at the first eight films, all the set-ups of what we’re in IX are there in plain view."

 

I never said that I "can decipher with absolute certainty" or that I "expect them to do exactly what I think because ... logic dictates it". I used the information (facts) at hand to construct a basic theory for how the Saga might end. Quite frankly, I don't think a more "satisfying" (JJ's assurance) or shocking conclusion to the Saga can be written, but I certainly would welcome it. We shall see.

 

And yes, I do have a "plausible conclusion" to the story of my theory for Episode IX. Answer my two questions, and I'll post it. Short answers are fine.

[Score 770]

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

 

1. What evidence would you believe that indicates Lucasfilm had a plan for the Sequel Trilogy from its inception?
2. Do you understand why Kennedy, Johnson, and Abrams have released conflicting messaging on this matter? (Or... Why do think they released conflicting messaging regarding a 'plan'?)

 

 

My answers to both questions can be logically deduced from my post.  

[Mattris 416]

Nice try, @Score, but just seeing the movie will not prove anything, as you could easily claim, "The ending to the Saga made sense... but they didn't plan it." What specific - or general - evidence will you believe to conclude that Lucasfilm had a plan for the Sequel Trilogy from the beginning?

 

Also, you failed to address Lucasfilm's conflicting messaging regarding their 'plan'... or lack thereof.

[mstrox 6,649]

Whatever happens in Episode IX, I hope that 

 

a) the people who just simply didn’t like TLJ like this one

 

and 

 

b) the mouth-breathing nincompoops who were Mad Online about TLJ are still mad 

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

9 hours ago, Arpy said:

Just popping back in to say I'm disenchanted cereal brands aren't doing these anymore:

 

 

 

We need to bring back toys in cereal! Even the prizes in Cracker Jacks are just freaking stickers now!

[Naïve Old Fart 9,511]

One genuine hairy kairy lightsabre. Pass it around, boys, maybe someone's got a use, for it?

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Palpatine looks so cool on that cereal box.

[Arpy 4,145]

Am I a nerd for pointing out they mislabelled the lightsabers? The design for Obi-Wan's hilt is his from Revenge of the Sith, whilst they've labelled Anakin's as his Revenge of the Sith design, but it's actually the one seen in Attack of the Clones...

 

I'm pretty sure I noticed this back in 05 too.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Why the hell did they include Luke? We want the real characters.

[Arpy 4,145]

Yes, like Max Rebo's piano and Captain Panaka's blaster cereal puzzle toys.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

I want Willrow Hood's ice cream maker.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

SW movies are fun to speculate about, but they're not all that fun to watch.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Not since George sold them to the white slavers.

[Demodex 557]

10 hours ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

Not since George sold them to the white slavers.

 

Actually they're better since then. George can't write a screenplay for shit.