Star Wars Disenchantment

[Chen G. 3,943]

Ahhh!

 

That's the scariest thing I've seen! and I've been in a war!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Master Chen... do you really think it will come to war?

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

8 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:

@Mattris you are fighting a losing battle. I'm impressed you've held out this long, and part of me respects your commitment. But it's time to call it in. You're only going to cause yourself more emotional distress.

8 hours ago, Arpy said:

@Mattris Perhaps on other areas, we can see eye-to-eye and I'll admit this discussion has been very confrontational and reactionary.

 

Let's get past this little roadblock and move on to other inane topics!

 

On the contrary, Mattris has utterly convinced me.

 

JWFan, we must join...with him.

 

It would be wise my friends.

[Arpy 4,145]

Tell me, friend, when did Nick the Wisecracker abandon reason for Mattris?

16 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

 

On the contrary, Mattris has utterly convinced me.

 

JWFan, we must join...with him.

 

It would be wise my friends.

 

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

@Mattris I stopped addressing your “arguments” because they’ve become harder and harder to follow. You have barely gone a single rebuttal without resorting to using the words “SJW agenda”, which I’m obviously not convinced of. As someone who frequently has to explain to people that there is no “gay agenda” beyond achieving equal rights (which I suppose is an agenda, but why it’s a bad one is beyond me), I’m very much in familiar territory here though I understand you may not be.

 

You also haven’t indicated at all why on earth you think social justice is a bad thing or why Kathleen’s “agenda” will have any negative impact on the films or audience besides the fact that it alienates men who are threatened by women in power.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Ehhh when social justice types demand society's normies learn 64 new genders, goes berserk when someone assumes anyone's gender, wants a "trigger warning" in university course material, and seems to be headed up by Twitter and Tumblr's finest "ALL MEN MUST DIE" representatives, you know the movement has a severe image problem.

[Chen G. 3,943]

13 minutes ago, Docteur Qui said:

why on earth you think social justice is a bad thing

 

Social justice isn't a bad thing; but equality-of-outcome, with which its often being confused, is a very bad one.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

10 minutes ago, Margo Channing said:

Ehhh when social justice types demand society's normies learn 64 new genders, goes berserk when someone assumes anyone's gender, wants a "trigger warning" in university course material, and seems to be headed up by Twitter and Tumblr's finest "ALL MEN MUST DIE" representatives, you know the movement has a severe image problem.

 

Any "movement" has image issues, but the actions of a few extreme isolated groups of people (because let's face it, the trigger warning people are just as isolated and lonely as the incel boys) obviously shouldn't paint the large section of the population that is concerned about the treatment of women and minorities.

 

If anyone conflates "increasing the presence of female and non-Caucasian characters in the Star Wars universe" with "ALL MEN MUST DIE FOR THE SOCIALIST REGIME" they should rightly be called out on it. We all know that no-one here is arguing for any of that Tumblr nonsense, and we certainly know that Kathleen Kennedy isn't, so why should we even entertain the notion?

10 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

Social justice isn't a bad thing; but equality-of-outcome, with which its often being confused, is a very bad one.

 

Is it as bad as millennia of systematic oppression based on increasingly irrelevant and redundant biological factors? The conversation needs to be had.

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

4 minutes ago, Docteur Qui said:

Is it as bad as millennia of systematic oppression based on increasingly irrelevant and redundant biological factors? The conversation needs to be had.

 

Perhaps. But not here.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Yes, I can agree with that.

[Chen G. 3,943]

I think it is a discussion worth having here, as long as we limit our focus to the issues relevant to this thread:

1. Diversity within the cast and whether or not (and/or how) it affects the film.
2. Diversity within the production crew.

 

And on both accounts, equality-of-outcome, mascareding as "diversity" or "social justice", should be discouraged. 

 

Whether or not Kathleen Kennedy believes in such notions of equality, is unknown and really isn't in any way appearant from the movies she produced, as of now.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I think we're an extraordinary way from seeing any real equality-of-outcome occur within our society due to the fact that we're still suffering from an abundance of basic inequality which doesn't seem to be going away. The fear of a concept that hasn't had any meaningful impact on our society is puzzling to me, because it often detracts the conversation from the existing problems that are very much affecting people.

 

But back to the topic, one white woman in charge of a multi billion-dollar company which in turn answers to a large conglomerate of the most rich and powerful white men who have ever lived, and she's what we should be worried about in the world? 

[Chen G. 3,943]

3 minutes ago, Docteur Qui said:

The fear of a concept that hasn't had any meaningful impact on our society is puzzling to me

 

That we don't have equal outcomes in most work environments doesn't mean that the concept doesn't affect our lives and may very soon start to affect our films.

[John 2,032]

6 hours ago, Mattris said:

The sequel to TFA was always going to do 'well'. But $700 million less is quite a drop-off. Many people were disappointed and only saw it once. Plus far fewer home video sales.

 

I agree, Solo would have made more had it been released in December. But I doubt it would've made $800 million. To say that it "struggled to perform alongside other tentpole movies that were playing at the time" is a cop-out. A Star Wars film should not ever struggle. I will only see Solo if I see major improvements from Lucasfilm.

 

If the movies and characters were more interesting (written better), toy sales would be better... from all age groups.

 

You... you didn’t even directly respond to my post. You literally just rehashed the same old talking points you’ve been spewing in this thread thus far.

 

You really are getting desperate. 

[SteveMc 2,674]

1 hour ago, Docteur Qui said:

Is it as bad as millennia of systematic oppression based on increasingly irrelevant and redundant biological factors?

Men are not irrelevant or redundant as opposed to women.  We both have our strengths and our weaknesses.  But we need each other.  We were designed for each other. 

Neither should rule over the other, regardless of the mistakes of our forefathers. 

[Chen G. 3,943]

5 minutes ago, Steve McQueen said:

Men are not irrelevant or redundant as opposed to women.  We both have our strengths and our weaknesses. 

 

That's just it: on average, we each have different strengths and weaknesses. Biologically, we are not the same, and that (again, on average) manifests itself in our personalities and behavior. Its not a social construct. That's why equality-of-outcome is such a flawed idea, in front and behind the camera.

[Holko 9,499]

20 minutes ago, John said:

 

You... you didn’t even directly respond to my post. You literally just rehashed the same old talking points you’ve been spewing in this thread thus far.

 

You really are getting desperate. 

 

Except for his statement that 9 could still fix things and Star Wars is not yet completely dead, he's only been regurgitating the circlejerk Youtube bullshit that everyone else has. Of course the one thing he hasn't responded to yet is where I ask him to point out and explain some flaws himself.

[Demodex 557]

2 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:

You also haven’t indicated at all why on earth you think social justice is a bad thing or why Kathleen’s “agenda” will have any negative impact on the films or audience besides the fact that it alienates men who are threatened by women in power

 

I've been saying this since the beginning.  His response seems to be that it hurts the story somehow. 

 

I guess I did insult his manhood though by asking why he is threatened by strong female characters. 

[Brónach 1,301]

Something abstract and unexplained hurts the story in abstract and unexplained ways.

 

I guess this just means someone doesn't connect to the thing or doesn't feel as part of the target audience of a particular movie.

[Pellaeon 593]

Female and male characters are juxtaposed throughout TLJ, with the women unfailingly painted in the more positive light. I assume that’s intentional; it’s so pronounced and consistent that I read it as one of the themes of the film. I’m thinking specifically of Rose/Finn, Rey/Luke, and Holdo/Poe. In each case, the female character arrests, undermines, and/or lectures the male character for his actions (or inactivity), multiple times; and the audience is unambiguously intended to appreciate the correctness of the female’s position.

 

Furthermore, if you consider Leia/Luke (the old generation of Skywalkers) and Rey/Ben (the new generation of Skywalkers, at least functionally), the female in both pairings can be described as steadfast and unflinching in the cause of right, whereas the males have both pathetically lost their way. We’re meant to notice and consider these parallels.

 

Please, I’m not “threatened” by any one of these instances; I just think it’s fair to say there is an intentional pattern in place within the piece. I try not to let it jerk me out of the story and make me necessarily think about real-world SJWs or whatever, but as a theme of the film, it is fair game for deconstruction. Is it a very meaningful theme? How does it relate to the eternal cosmic war of good and evil? How does “The Force is female” work into this structure or shed light on it?

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

I'm bored.

Is it June 21st yet? 

[Pellaeon 593]

To placate kasey

 

[Chen G. 3,943]

1 hour ago, Pellaeon said:

Rey/Ben (the new generation of Skywalkers, at least functionally), the female in both pairings can be described as steadfast and unflinching in the cause of right, whereas the males have both pathetically lost their way.

 

Kylo is NOT lost in The Last Jedi. He is only fooling Rey so that she’s there at his side when he kills Snoke, so as to help him do away with the guards.

[Mattris 416]

On 12/06/2018 at 3:47 AM, Arpy said:

She highlighted the slavery, the animal abuse and the corrupt nature of the war, that's not being an SJW, that's being a fucking human being.

 

Rose did none of those things. Rose told Finn that she was upset with Canto Bight because she felt that the rich/gambling inhabitants were apathetic to the impending war and injustices of the galaxy. After Rose and Finn were arrested (for illegal parking) and jailed, they escaped with (convenient) jail cellmate DJ, - who offered to assist them in their mission. They declined his offer. And instead of resuming their extremely time-sensitive mission (by locating the Code-breaker), Rose convinced a child worker* to let the racing horses** out so that she and Finn could stampede-style ride the animals through town. This resulted in significant damage to the local business and injuries (and possible deaths people and the animals). Once the pair (and animal herd) reached the outskirts of the town, Finn said what they did "was worth it... to make them hurt". Rose removed the saddle from the animal they rode and said "Now it was worth it."

 

In the stolen ship, it was DJ who brought up the 'corrupt nature of the war' topic using a slide-show of war-craft. DJ ultimately betrayed them, so it's possible that he was lying to Finn in an attempt to convince him of his mantra: Only look out for yourself. Don't take sides.

 

In the Battle of Crait, Finn decided to sacrifice himself to save the Resistance (his new friends). Rose's selfish act denied him that, and in doing so, risked both of their lives, and destroyed their ships. She proclaimed, "That's how we're going to win. Not fighting what we hate. But saving what we love." She kissed him and fainted, leaving Finn to drag her unconscious body across the battlefield, at the risk of being shot by the First Order walkers or ships.

 

*  http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Canto_Bight    "Rose convinced the child worker Temiri Blagg"

**   https://www.starwars.com/databank/fathier-jockeys   "The best jockeys know how to persuade their mounts to run without striking them with an electrocrop."

 

Using this article as the definition of Social Justice Warrior, Rose fits the definition of an SJW perfectly. Excerpts from the article:

 

"A person who is genuinely passionate about social justice issues. This meaning of SJW refers to an individual focused on learning, critical thinking, and sharing learned information with others. This SJW is concerned with being fair and balanced, as well as helping to promote the voices of people in disadvantaged groups."
"... to create argument and debate for personal attention, rather than furthering the cause or being an agent of change for the larger movement they're arguing on behalf of"

"Social privilege issues are issues where one group in a society has an advantage over another in multiple areas of daily life. Groups within society can have less social privilege due to poverty, race, gender, and sexual orientation."

"Distribution of wealth - Distribution of wealth issues center around a small group within a society having a disproportionate level of personal wealth. Personal wealth includes more than money or income but also assets such as homes, other real estate, vehicles, businesses, stocks and bonds, and inheritances."

 

On 12/06/2018 at 6:39 AM, Nick1066 said:

On the contrary, Mattris has utterly convinced me.

 

JWFan, we must join...with him.

 

It would be wise my friends.

 

You don't have to join with me. My advice it to be more discerning. You can 'like' these movies overall, but don't feel the need to defend them - or ignore/deny clear  agendas within them - just because it's Star Wars.

 

On 12/06/2018 at 6:57 AM, Docteur Qui said:

@Mattris I stopped addressing your “arguments” because they’ve become harder and harder to follow. You have barely gone a single rebuttal without resorting to using the words “SJW agenda”, which I’m obviously not convinced of. As someone who frequently has to explain to people that there is no “gay agenda” beyond achieving equal rights (which I suppose is an agenda, but why it’s a bad one is beyond me), I’m very much in familiar territory here though I understand you may not be.

 

You also haven’t indicated at all why on earth you think social justice is a bad thing or why Kathleen’s “agenda” will have any negative impact on the films or audience besides the fact that it alienates men who are threatened by women in power.

 

Social justice isn't necessarily "a bad thing". SJWs advocate for more social programs, often funded with financial donations from willing individuals and private companies. But funding using public taxes is a form of socialism, which is diametrically opposed to the construct of capitalism.

 

Canto Bight was written to be an injustice-rich environment. The agenda-driven narrative during these scenes were far too on-the-nose to be acceptable in a Star Wars movie. The vast majority of the audience doesn't want to be hit in the face with social justice lessons at all - much less at the expense of furthering the story. Unfortunately, the most of the audience drowned in the sinkhole that was Canto Bight.

 

On 12/06/2018 at 7:50 AM, Docteur Qui said:

But back to the topic, one white woman in charge of a multi billion-dollar company which in turn answers to a large conglomerate of the most rich and powerful white men who have ever lived, and she's what we should be worried about in the world? 

 

In the world today, most would agree that more important situations exist than what's happening with Star Wars. But that's not the topic of discussion here. The fact that Kathleen Kennedy is white and a woman has absolutely nothing to do with the fans' disappointment in the direction she has taken Star Wars.

 

On 12/06/2018 at 8:30 AM, John said:

You... you didn’t even directly respond to my post. You literally just rehashed the same old talking points you’ve been spewing in this thread thus far.

 

You really are getting desperate. 

 

This was your post:

 

On 11/06/2018 at 9:25 PM, John said:

Regardless of your own personal feelings on the movie, please tell me how being the highest grossing movie of the year is "underperforming." Yes, it made less than TFA's total of 2 billion, but was anyone expecting it to make more than that? It's a common trend for the second film in a trilogy to make less than its predecessor.

 

Had Solo been released in December, it would've made what a typical Marvel flick does; 800 million or so. Lucasfilm picked a really bad release date for the movie, and it struggled to perform alongside other tentpole movies that were playing at the time (Infinity War, Deadpool 2) Also, box office reception ≠ overall quality. Solo was a solid, entertaining movie with some really good performances, and most people I've met on the internet and social media agree. If you're a fan of the pre-Disney canon and the EU, it sounds like you'd love Solo, but your loss, I guess.

 

Indisputably, the highest grossing movie of the year is "underperforming" when it makes $700 million less than its predecessor. "Was anyone expecting it to make more than that?" Yes, I'm sure the Disney executives, shareholders, and fans expected TLJ to make 80-90% of what TFA made - not 64%.

 

I agreed that Solo would have made more had it been released in December... but doubted that it would've made $800 million. I also said that saying that it "struggled to perform alongside other tentpole movies that were playing at the time" is a cop-out. A Star Wars film should never struggle. The film's sub-par marketing, production woes, and "overall quality" didn't help, but those were not the top reasons that Solo flopped: backlash from TLJ.

 

Most people I've met on the internet and social media said that most of Solo was mediocre, with loads of cringe-worthy moments, and only a few good action and character-driven scenes. The real Han Solo is featured in Episodes 4-7. This movie will only cloud my mind, so I have no desire to see it.

 

On 12/06/2018 at 9:22 AM, Demodex said:

I've been saying this since the beginning.  His response seems to be that it hurts the story somehow. 

 

I guess I did insult his manhood though by asking why he is threatened by strong female characters. 

 

See above.

 

Insult my manhood? Nope. I don't know how many times I have to say this: I am not "threatened by strong female characters." I am simply shocked and disappointed at how poorly they are written and incorporated into the film, particularly Rose and Holdo, which came across as awkward and annoying, respectively. After the question-filled set-up that was TFA, Rey did little in this film. That clip from the final trailer ("I need someone to show my place in all this") was basically Rey throughout the entire movie. She followed people around to see if they would tell her what to do. All she did in the film was wave a staff/lightsaber around, listen to disgruntled Luke, steal the Jedi texts, kill some guards, fall for Kylo's trap, and lift some rocks. These new female characters are an insult  to real, strong women everywhere.

 

On 12/06/2018 at 2:52 PM, Pellaeon said:

Female and male characters are juxtaposed throughout TLJ, with the women unfailingly painted in the more positive light. I assume that’s intentional; it’s so pronounced and consistent that I read it as one of the themes of the film. I’m thinking specifically of Rose/Finn, Rey/Luke, and Holdo/Poe. In each case, the female character arrests, undermines, and/or lectures the male character for his actions (or inactivity), multiple times; and the audience is unambiguously intended to appreciate the correctness of the female’s position.

 

Furthermore, if you consider Leia/Luke (the old generation of Skywalkers) and Rey/Ben (the new generation of Skywalkers, at least functionally), the female in both pairings can be described as steadfast and unflinching in the cause of right, whereas the males have both pathetically lost their way. We’re meant to notice and consider these parallels.

 

Please, I’m not “threatened” by any one of these instances; I just think it’s fair to say there is an intentional pattern in place within the piece. I try not to let it jerk me out of the story and make me necessarily think about real-world SJWs or whatever, but as a theme of the film, it is fair game for deconstruction. Is it a very meaningful theme? How does it relate to the eternal cosmic war of good and evil? How does “The Force is female” work into this structure or shed light on it?

 

Astute observations. We'll see how things play out, in the forthcoming SW movies... and in the real world.

[Arpy 4,145]

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

Psssst. Hey, bud.

Hit the ignore button on his profile. The results are quite blissful. 

[Nick Parker 3,040]

25 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Canto Bight was written to be an injustice-rich environment. The agenda-driven narrative during these scenes were far too on-the-nose to be acceptable in a Star Wars movie

 

Dude, we're talking about movies where the good guys destroy an evil weapon called the Death Star. Or take on an evil dude named General Grievous, who doesn't really do much for the plot at all. 

30 minutes ago, Mattris said:

That clip we saw from the final trailer ("I need someone to show my place in all this") was Rey throughout the entire movie. She follows people around to see if they'll tell her what to do. All she does in this film is wave a staff/lightsaber around, listen to disgruntled Luke, steal the Jedi texts, kill some guards, fall for Kylo's trap, and lift some rocks

 

She follows people around until she realizes that only she could choose how she fits into the world she's found herself thrust in. That's her whole arc in the film, spotlighted very early on when Luke asks her, "Why are YOU here?"

 

One of the things I like about The Last Jedi is that it has very clear themes, and actions serve not only to serve the plot, but those themes as well (and sometimes mostly the themes). I can understand why that's not something everyone would enjoy, but I like those kinds of meditations, which give a different kind of cohesion to the film, one that you don't see too often in a big film like this.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

Was there a Mattris equivalent when Kingdom of the Crystal Skill came out? 

 

The worst thing I can say about Last Jedi is that I already forgot about it. Except flying Leia. That's easy to remember.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

28 minutes ago, Arpy said:

 

Obi-Wan's gonna kill him.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

1 minute ago, kaseykockroach said:

Was there a Mattris equivalent when Kingdom of the Crystal Skill came out? 

 

The worst thing I can say about Last Jedi is that I already forgot about it. Except flying Leia. That's easy to remember.

 

KotCS didn't have purple haired freaks with Tumblr accounts like Admiral Diane.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

Shia LaBeouf is pretty freaky even with normal hair.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Put that thing away.

[Arpy 4,145]

Kasey, I never block anyone, I just don't see the point. Besides, as infuriating I find Mattris's arguments to be, they offer a good challenge in an otherwise uneventful day...

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

6 minutes ago, Margo Channing said:

Put that thing away.

 

Oh shit.

 

*no one understands wtf is going on*

[Arpy 4,145]

50 minutes ago, Mattris said:

After the question-filled set-up that was TFA, Rey did little in this film. That clip from the final trailer ("I need someone to show my place in all this") was basically Rey throughout the entire movie. She followed people around to see if they would tell her what to do. All she did in the film was wave a staff/lightsaber around, listen to disgruntled Luke, steal the Jedi texts, kill some guards, fall for Kylo's trap, and lift some rocks.

Don't be such a reductionist, with that perspective no one did anything worth a damn in the film.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

6 minutes ago, Batman's Diet Coke said:

 

Oh shit.

 

*no one understands wtf is going on*

 

Dafuq was that? His pants rip?

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

 

3 minutes ago, Arpy said:

Don't be such a reductionist, with that perspective no one did anything worth a damn in the film.

That technically isn't incorrect.

[Arpy 4,145]

No, Rey did achieve something - she convinced Luke to return!

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Twin Lukes: The Return 

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

3 minutes ago, Arpy said:

No, Rey did achieve something - she convinced Luke to return!

 

Whoop-de-doo, so she convinced the voice of Buzz Buzzard to get involved, big deal!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Diane? Currently entering the Force projection. Gotta find out what kinda Imperial Walkers these are. They're reaaally something.

[Arpy 4,145]

I should add that Luke's return in The Last Jedi, is the Return of the Jedi.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

Well, it's the return of a Jedi. 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

The Return of the Jedi

[Mattris 416]

1 hour ago, Arpy said:

No, Rey did achieve something - she convinced Luke to return!

 

 

The movie didn't show - or even imply - that. Yoda gave Luke a pep-talk that seemed to hit home. After it appeared that all hope for the Resistance was lost (after Rose stopped Finn from destroying the Door Canon Thing), Luke finally decided to intervene, Force-projecting to distract Kylo and give the Resistance more time to escape.

 

Did Luke know that Force-projecting would be suicidal? (I know that Kylo told that Rey she must not be connecting their 'Force-time' talks, as doing so would kill her.)

[Arpy 4,145]

Yoda's pep talk was helpful, but it was Rey's instigation that opened him up to the possibility of returning. 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Because she's his daughter!

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

More like because she's HOTTER!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Great lower back tendons and ligaments on her!