Jump to content
John

Star Wars Disenchantment

Recommended Posts

4 hours ago, Norma's Corpse said:

Have any of the Star Wars movies been "great"

 

Yes. That would be "The Empire Strikes Back".

 

7 hours ago, Mattris said:

Star Wars is currently in the worst state it's ever been.

 

No. That would be 1999-2002.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its not quite a kids' film in the same way that the original is. I know because didn't grow up with it. I watched it as an adult, and while the "kids' film" aspect of the original and of course the first two prequels kept me from ever fully engaging with them, this film didn't have that problem.

 

It was one of those movies where I didn't realize how much more I was into it until it ended.

 

I wouldn't say its truly perfect, though: having not grown up with the character I found C3PO kind of annoying, but being that he's an heirloom from the previous film I'm more than willing to excuse it; and of course there are some retroactive changes to the film that I don't care for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry if this seems a little late, I don't live on this forum, at least not for several hours a day! 

 

@Mattris brought up the fact that Rogue One didn't flop, and that no one was demanding it. Yes, that's right Mattris, but Rogue One was the first Star Wars spin-off, people were reassured by the inclusion of fan-favourite Darth Vader and all the other iconic bullshit and no one knew what to expect. We were dealing with a team of new characters in a familiar setting, it was an uneven ground, but to say no one was clamoring for Rogue One would be foolish. I remember there being a huge buzz for it and that was before the production crap was going on. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd just like to remind everyone that the first 3 Kathleen Kennedy produced Star Wars films made a combined $4.45 BILLION DOLLARS. The entire prequel trilogy under Lucas made "only" $2.5 BILLION DOLLARS. Even accounting for inflation, that's a huge tick of approval from audiences.

 

The alarmist commentary that Disney are sweating over Kennedy's leadership is hilarious. They'll shrug Solo off as a series of poor marketing/timing decisions and cry into the billions upon billions they have flowing in annually from merchandise alone. 😂

 

It's also worth noting that Kennedy was arguing for the film to be pushed back to December but it was Iger/Disney who insisted on a May release, a key strategic mistake.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, crumbs said:

They'll shrug Solo off

 

I don't think they shrugged it off so very lightly, though. It was embarassing enough that Iger had to say that they're "slowing down".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Norma's Corpse said:

I've grown up with it. But I think it might be a bit... overrated. It is just a kids' space opera flick with great special effects afterall. It has its moments and I like it. But "great"? I just dunno.

I am psychologically curious which movies do you consider great. For example, would you rather include/award/preserve Mulholland Drive or Starship Troopers? Psycho or The Dark Knight?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Fabulin said:

I am psychologically curious which movies do you consider great. For example, would you rather include/award/preserve Mulholland Drive or Starship Troopers? Psycho or The Dark Knight?

 

I don't know what's great anymore. I know what "pretty good" is though. All the above films are at least pretty good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Norma's Corpse said:

Let's get real. Have any of the Star Wars movies been "great"? I mean it's not like we're talking about Star Trek.

 

Yes. I think ANH, ESB, and TFA are all great.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chris Hartwell just published a good examination of The Last Jedi: not at all apologetic of its flaws, but also not overlooking some of its high-points. I’ll wager he still likes it more than I do: at the time, it was one of his favorites of the year.

 

 

I only watched it once, so I'll probably have more to say on this later. Of the top of my head, Hartwell attributes Lucas with making the Jedi deeplye flawed, making justified Johnson’s choices regarding Luke (which I don’t mind). But since those flaws weren’t necessarily presented as flawes, I think it’s fairly disingenuous to look on Johnson’s choice as if it were building upon this foundation, which in reality is much more shaky than Hartwell (a fan of all the original sextet, I should add) will care to admit.

 

Also, he seems to hang on to his assumption that Kylo Ren will indeed be redeemed in IX, which I don’t think is a warranted choice anymore.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Muldoon said:

 

Yes. I think ANH, ESB, and TFA are all great.

GTFA a great movie? Good show.

 

As far as the cinematic Late Republic/Empire goes, in terms of reasonable emotional arcs and motivations, realistically thought actions  and playing it all 'straight' to great music, imho:

ESB > Star Wars > TCW Season 5: Ep 17-20 > theatrical ROTJ /+Extended celebration > The Force Unleashed

 

The rest is mostly bad... and also hard to compare because every one is chaotically different from others

ROTS is beloved by many because it passes on a few good scenes; to each his own. Nonetheless it's a mix of hardly logical or consequential "kewl" action sequences with a couch sitcom. 

AOTC has an interesting concept of a Noir/Space Mystery Obi-wan movie, but features the worst acting in the series and mindless CGI massacres

TPM "might have gone too far" in some places (slapstick, political matters) Besides that and some plot afterthought-idiocies from the same mind who wrote ROTJ, it is however a decent, innovative standalone film with a great original score.

TLJ features many interesting "lessons learned" from PT, OT and TFA, and for all it's faults, is complex in the sense of inspirations and references within the universe. Maybe just not necessarily worth a canonization as what really transpired.

RO Some interesting ideas and a certain "star wars mindset" brought down by generic dialogues and not merely boring, but bored acting, outside of the pilot voices from 1977 scrap pile. Also, the outrageous 2-week-schedule for poor Michael asks for a rescore (like Shostakovich's awesome 1966 job on October / Williams' 1997 Victory Celebration).

 

Star Wars means to me at least the core concepts of:

1) Amazing Space Innovation

2) Dazzling Music

3) Operatic Gravitas  //Note: watch TFA's general cultural barbarism back-to-back with 1977's Guiness/Cushing/J.E. Jones/even Hamill sentences and 1977's actors' body language if you need context... or a cardiac arrest... //

TFA is not Star Wars to me. "You have no place in this story. You come from nothing. You are nothing".

Detract the dialogues, make the music sidelined and non-assuming and, having apparently thought Plinkett "to be some sort of god", promptly subtract the cosmic lavishness to leave bare-ass wasteland and what is sitting here is not a space opera anymore. What is it then? Mystery Bucks. (2.0/10 for a few H. Ford's deliveries, several musical ideas and occasional SW-themed widgets like Poe's X-wing or Kylo's sword)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It'd be much easier to form a detailed response to your post had it bore the vaguest semblance of legibility and structure.

 

What exactly is the point you're trying to make?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, John said:

It'd be much easier to form a detailed response to your post had it bore the vaguest semblance of legibility and structure.

How convenient then that it requires nothing of that sort.

 

Edit: I continued the thread, which lately involves discussions on whether and if so in what part or manner are star wars movies great. The direct response was to seeing 2015 in the exclusive company of 1980 and 1977 and above the rest, which I feel might warrant a reconsideration if only some grounds were established for it. I gave my reasons in the context of the saga for both of these topics and tagged the person which might be interested the most. Your kind intervention on the other hand... the dark side shrouds everything as to what your point was. 🤨

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Fabulin said:

ESB > Star Wars > TCW Season 5: Ep 17-20 > theatrical ROTJ /+Extended celebration > The Force Unleashed

 

The rest is mostly bad... and also hard to compare because every one is chaotically different from others

ROTS is beloved by many because it passes on a few good scenes; to each his own. Nonetheless it's a mix of hardly logical or consequential "kewl" action sequences with a couch sitcom. 

AOTC has an interesting concept of a Noir/Space Mystery Obi-wan movie, but features the worst acting in the series and mindless CGI massacres

TPM "might have gone too far" in some places (slapstick, political matters) Besides that and some plot afterthought-idiocies from the same mind who wrote ROTJ, it is however a decent, innovative standalone film with a great original score.

TLJ features many interesting "lessons learned" from PT, OT and TFA, and for all it's faults, is complex in the sense of inspirations and references within the universe. Maybe just not necessarily worth a canonization as what really transpired.

 

Empire Strikes Back (*****) > Star Wars (****1/5) > The Force Awakens (****) > The Last Jedi (***1/5)  Revenge of the Sith (***1/5) > Return of the Jedi (***) > The Phantom Menace (***) > Attack of the Clones (*).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Norma's Corpse said:

Anyone else enjoy the new Hamd Solo movie?

I heard the score was by Jogh Powar? I think that's his name...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/4/2018 at 5:42 AM, Arpy said:

I'm sorry @Mattris, but my love for Star Wars hasn't clouded my judgement and god knows how many times I've criticized The Last Jedi over the past nine months. I have said it multiple times here and elsewhere that I was disappointed by the film, and have since grown to love it. And no, you can't pass off our positive reception for the film as simply having 'lower standards' than you appear to do, it's not how this works. Let's say it were true that a majority of fans feel that Kennedy should step down, or that Star Wars is in the gutter, this wouldn't yield any real consequence on the operations of a multi-billion dollar company who are clearly doing okay. I really think that a lot of the negativity aimed towards the film was amplified by the soapbox that is social media, fairly giving platform for anyone to voice their opinions, but also to a great deal of emotionally charged people who think they're the caretakers of the franchise. It's true to say that these companies do care and cater for their audiences, but too often is the case where fans conflate their love and investment for a franchise as having a creative stake in the success of a film. It's hard when a film in a franchise you like doesn't meet your expectations or is worse than you thought, but it's something you'll have to accept or waste energy on things you can't change.

 

All of your criticisms of the film aren't simple faults that not just anyone could've picked up on and have before, they go beyond that to crass oversimplifications of issues that aren't really issues to begin with, and you mask that by hiding behind consensus as if it were that simple. For example, criticizing and characterizing Leia flying back to the ship as being 'Mary Poppins' isn't a criticism worth addressing, and to believe a director for a sci-fi/fantasy film had to explain this on social media is fucking embarrassing for those who couldn't accept that Leia could use the force. 

 

From our interactions here and based on a majority of your posts, you seem to be making a great deal of assumptions based on what others think and believe, as if you're the only one who can see things clearly for what they are, when you're just another jumped up Star Wars fan who felt they were robbed. 

 

Keeping in mind the characters and events of the previous films in the series and its dozens of major problems on every level, TLJ is an objectively bad movie. But you can still like it.

 

The "real consequence on the operations of a multi-billion dollar company" will be loosing hundreds of millions of dollars on a film and park due to a disenchanted fandom... that was broken due to crappy/underwhelming films, as well as and behavior from prominent figures of the company insulting (the intelligence of) the fans/customers.

 

How "the negativity aimed towards the film was amplified" is irrelevant. The customer is always right. To be successful, just try to give them what they what. This is not complicated, but Disney/Lucasfilm either don't get it... or are being defiant. "Emotionally charged people" do not "think they're the caretakers of the franchise" and also do not "have to accept" these films and will vote with their dollar. Change? My prediction is that it will happen soon after Episode 9 is released.

 

You can call my observation and complaints "crass oversimplifications of issues that aren't really issues to begin with" but they are issues, nonetheless. And the "consensus" of a significant number of fans makes it "that simple".

 

Leia had never been shown capable of using the Force anywhere near the level shown in TLJ. Yet that action was the only thing she did of note in the film. But none of the characters thought it was "worth addressing". The fact that "a director for a sci-fi/fantasy film had to explain this on social media is fucking embarrassing for" him. 

 

What assumptions have I made? As far as "what others think and believe... who can see things clearly for what they are", perception is reality. And even in the 'real world',  Disney/Lucasfilm have done nothing to calm our nerves or address our concerns - quite the opposite.

 

On 10/7/2018 at 3:18 AM, Holko said:

No it wasn't, it would've worked flawlessly if DJ hadn't overheard the (partial) plan on the comm.

 

On 10/7/2018 at 4:06 AM, crumbs said:

Holdo is actually proven correct by not telling Poe their real escape plan for most of the movie. As soon as Poe finds out he blabs it to Finn and Rose in earshot of a highly dodgy weirdo who, lo and behold, sells them out and spills the beans.

 

So arguably Poe's dumb plan started the chain reaction that ultimately killed most of the Resistance before they could reach Crait. If Finn and Rose never go on their mission, they never bring back DJ. With no DJ in the picture, Holdo's escape plan remains safely under wraps.

 

 

What was Holdo's / Leia's original plan to escape the hyperspace-tracking-capable First Order fleet?

 

On 10/7/2018 at 10:37 PM, Demodex said:

I don't care what Lucasfilm's behavior is as long as they keep making great movies. As long as they keep making great movies I don't give a shit what else they do.  I've enjoyed all 4 of the Disney SW films, and that's most important thing.

 

But these are not "great movies", are they? They're lazy, poorly written, and divisive.

 

Like many people, I don't want anything to do with companies that insult their customers  or their intelligence.

 

The most important thing is that you've enjoyed the movies. Isn't that a bit selfish of you?

 

On 10/8/2018 at 3:00 AM, Docteur Qui said:

Please don't feel sorry for us. We're actually quite happy in our camp, and I'm sure our collective blood pressure is a bit lower than yours.

 

How you can be "quite happy" when the other "camp" is disgusted is... quite puzzling. If you are truly happy with the these films - and the state of Star Wars, in general - please explain why you feel this way.

 

On 10/8/2018 at 3:07 AM, Chen G. said:

No. That would be 1999-2002.

 

Not a chance. All of George's films made a significant profit, and he (or his employees) did not insult the fans... so much so that they would boycott the third film in the trilogy.

 

On 10/8/2018 at 6:08 AM, Arpy said:

 

@Mattris brought up the fact that Rogue One didn't flop, and that no one was demanding it. Yes, that's right Mattris, but Rogue One was the first Star Wars spin-off, people were reassured by the inclusion of fan-favourite Darth Vader and all the other iconic bullshit and no one knew what to expect. We were dealing with a team of new characters in a familiar setting, it was an uneven ground, but to say no one was clamoring for Rogue One would be foolish. I remember there being a huge buzz for it and that was before the production crap was going on.

 

No one 'asked' for Rogue One either. But that film was generally well-received and made a healthy profit. Also with Solo, "people were reassured by the inclusion of fan-favourite [Han Solo, Chewbacca, and Lando] and all the other iconic bullshit and no one knew what to expect. We were dealing with a team of new characters in a familiar setting, it was an uneven ground". It was basically the same thing, but people reacted differently. I wonder why...

 

On 10/8/2018 at 6:24 AM, crumbs said:

I'd just like to remind everyone that the first 3 Kathleen Kennedy produced Star Wars films made a combined $4.45 BILLION DOLLARS. The entire prequel trilogy under Lucas made "only" $2.5 BILLION DOLLARS. Even accounting for inflation, that's a huge tick of approval from audiences.

 

The alarmist commentary that Disney are sweating over Kennedy's leadership is hilarious. They'll shrug Solo off as a series of poor marketing/timing decisions and cry into the billions upon billions they have flowing in annually from merchandise alone. 😂

 

It's also worth noting that Kennedy was arguing for the film to be pushed back to December but it was Iger/Disney who insisted on a May release, a key strategic mistake.

 

Not "approval" - interest and hope. As evidence with the utter failure of Solo, much of that has evaporated.

 

You might laugh at some fans' conspiracy theories, but we will see what happens come next December... after the (vocal minority) fans have spoken with their financial silence at the box office.

 

On the surface, that's why Iger 'took the blame' for Solo. Saying anything else would be blaming Kathleen Kennedy... and he was never going to go there, was he? It just sounds ridiculous to say that a Star Wars film released 5 months after the previous one is 'too much Star Wars'. And primarily that is why it lost his company $200M. 

 

On 10/8/2018 at 6:37 AM, crumbs said:

Perhaps shrug was the wrong word. They've correctly taken a step back to re-evaluate their release strategy (as overexposure clearly hurt Solo by releasing 5 months after the last SW film) and will hopefully move away from origin stories for characters that don't need them (the other thing that clearly hurt Solo).

 

People were saying long before TLJ that nobody wanted to see a Han Solo origin film. Nobody wanted to see anyone except Ford in that role. The film had a stench of toxicity about it long before the production issues or the divisive TLJ. In the same way that most people predicted John Carter, Lone Ranger and Tomorrowland would be eventual flops for a variety of reasons.

 

Overexposure? I'm beginning to think that Bob Iger knew the backlash (due primarily to the divisiveness of TLJ) was real... and that keeping to the original release date would 'show strength', at least on the surface. But if Solo failed, he could personally take the blame, citing "too much, too fast". Let's be real, Solo still would have bombed in December. Iger knew this and definitely didn't want that to happen, hence the film's May release.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Mattris said:

How you can be "quite happy" when the other "camp" is disgusted is... quite puzzling. 

 

It's not puzzling when you realize different people have different opinions. 

If being divisive means a movie is a bad movie then the prequels were bad movies. 

 

If Episode 9 ends up making billions of dollars, how are you going to explain that if the majority of fans are disgusted and disenfranchised? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Arpy said:

I was willing to play with Mattris for a while but it's safe to say he's a troll now.

 

I was willing to respond to Arpy, but he no longer deserves my time.

 

Anyone else care dispute my response to him... or the awful state of Star Wars, as perceived by a significant percentage of the fans?

 

2 hours ago, Demodex said:

It's not puzzling when you realize different people have different opinions. 

If being divisive means a movie is a bad movie then the prequels were bad movies. 

 

If Episode 9 ends up making billions of dollars, how are you going to explain that if the majority of fans are disgusted and disenfranchised? 

 

I already said you could like the films, even if they are bad.

No, a movie "being divisive" does not mean it is bad. But a lackluster story, poorly-written (or needless) new characters, destroying old/established characters, on-the-nose identity politics throughout, numerous plot-holes, and a director creating a divisive film just for "make me excited"-sake (knowing that it would anger the fans) DOES.

 

So you're "quite happy" when Lucasfilm employees insult the fans and the president does nothing to stop them or apologize... but actually supports them and receives a contract extension when the films box office revenue and merchandise sales are dropping?

 

"If Episode 9 ends up making billions of dollars", I'll eat my hat. If it doesn't even make one billion, what will be your explanation?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×