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Star Wars Disenchantment

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27 minutes ago, Horner's Dynamic Range said:

Lucas said as much in 2005 that Episodes I-VI were the complete saga and I agree. The new movies aren't compelling enough that they feel they have a reason to exist aside from cashing in on a beloved franchise that had remained dormant since the original saga ended.

 

If you're gonna call out these new movies as cashgrabs taking advantage of the Star Wars brand, you're gonna need to lump the prequel trilogy into the “made solely for financial purposes" category as well. Those movies were only made for profit. Lucas never had any intention of making them after Return of the Jedi. Lucasfilm desperately needed a money maker. The only parts of the company making any sort of money was its subsidiary departments (ILM, Skywalker Sound, etc). Lucasfilm needed a hit. They had too many flops on their hands. The "special edition" re-releases of the OT were made to test the waters; did the general public still want Star Wars? If those had underperformed or failed, then any pre-production on The Phantom Menace would have likely halted.

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The 1990s nurtured an air of mystique regarding SW. The expanded universe was just beginning to flourish, the Arista soundtrack set helped revive some interest, the marketing campaigns surrounding the new VHS and laserdisc releases made them a significant part of people's collections, and not to mention new video games and weird fast food tie-ins. There were no new movies, but the covert campaign to make SW seem as if it was some kind of religious experience was successful.

 

All that stuff was important in maintaining an audience that was highly receptive to a new set of movies directly from the original creator.

 

It all seems laughable today, especially given how they seem so damn manufactured by their new management. The guys at RLM were right in their observation that the Celebration event is like a political convention - it really is at that ridiculous scale where participants are all fanatical true believers, and funnily many of them would have grown up with that 1990s mystique that embedded SW as some kind of culturally significant touchstone or something that's more than it really is.

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5 hours ago, John said:

If you're gonna call out these new movies as cashgrabs taking advantage of the Star Wars brand, you're gonna need to lump the prequel trilogy into the “made solely for financial purposes" category as well. Those movies were only made for profit. Lucas never had any intention of making them after Return of the Jedi. Lucasfilm desperately needed a money maker. The only parts of the company making any sort of money was its subsidiary departments (ILM, Skywalker Sound, etc). Lucasfilm needed a hit. They had too many flops on their hands. The "special edition" re-releases of the OT were made to test the waters; did the general public still want Star Wars? If those had underperformed or failed, then any pre-production on The Phantom Menace would have likely halted.

 

Yeah, but that's the difference between doing sequels and doing prequels: the beginning is a much less definitive moment than the ending. The story of Star Wars as a series can start in The Phantom Menace, in Attack of the Clones, in the original Star Wars, in Empire Strikes Back, etcetra. It can even start before The Phantom Menace: you can churn out prequels almost ad infinitum.

 

And ultimately, with the reveal that Darth Vader is Luke's father, people did have a need to see that, and see why and how it happened. They didn't necessarily needed three films of it, and certainly didn't need to see it turn out like it did, but there was certainly reason to make prequels for Star Wars.

 

On the other hand, Return of the Jedi, while I don't think its terribly good movie, is the end: no other film in the series is, unless of course one is content with just the original Star Wars. The fact that the main characters live on does not necessarily mean that the story goes on. After that crescendo, we don't need three more (quite lengthy, by Star Wars standards) films set afterwards.

 

Its kind of like how we just don't need Indiana Jones 4 and 5.

 

We'll wait for IX, I guess.

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Anyone else hate how John Williams keeps doing church music in Star Wars? Like the bit in TLJ when Rey lifts the stones. I'm like, no wonder gullible fans treat these movies like a religion. Williams himself isn't helping matters with big church music moments like that. He has an awful habit in overstating a movie's importance, and his choirs I'm not really keen on.

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44 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

Yes, music going SUPER EPIC AND BIG is not my taste either.  The climax of ROTJ was amazing and with half the histrionics of ROTS.

 

It felt right for the movie! (I'm thinking stuff like Anakin's Dark Deeds).

2 hours ago, Norma's Corpse said:

Anyone else hate how John Williams keeps doing church music in Star Wars? Like the bit in TLJ when Rey lifts the stones. I'm like, no wonder gullible fans treat these movies like a religion. Williams himself isn't helping matters with big church music moments like that. He has an awful habit in overstating a movie's importance, and his choirs I'm not really keen on.

 

I'm not familiar with that bit.

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And immediately following that, the big statement of the Kylo Ren fanfare with choir, which than goes on to sing for the reveal of Luke's astral projection reveal.

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It might be religioso, but it speaks to the core themes of the emotional battle in  Revenge of the Sith. It never struck me as 'church music', maybe because it felt right for the scenes those operatic choral sections were written for. They were certainly the strongest voices in the film.

3 hours ago, Norma's Corpse said:

Anyone else hate how John Williams keeps doing church music in Star Wars? Like the bit in TLJ when Rey lifts the stones. I'm like, no wonder gullible fans treat these movies like a religion. Williams himself isn't helping matters with big church music moments like that. He has an awful habit in overstating a movie's importance, and his choirs I'm not really keen on.

 

1 hour ago, Disco Stu said:

Yes, music going SUPER EPIC AND BIG is not my taste either.  The climax of ROTJ was amazing and with half the histrionics of ROTS.

There wasn't anything in the OT that ever demanded Williams to write something with a larger scale in mind, not to mention the Williams of 1999-2005 was different to the Williams of 1977-1983. I haven't perceived Revenge of the Sith's score as being 'epic' or 'big', rather it is music that fits the screen so to say.

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Star Wars really started to go downhill when they gave everything names. There was a simplicity to it all back in the day that kept it from being pretentious. You'd call things like Hammerhead or Jabba's Sand Boat or Doctor Vader. Then suddenly everything had an uber nerdy name and it became a huge pretentious pile of shit.

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On 11/7/2018 at 12:16 AM, John said:

 

Nope. Just search for the term “Mattris” or “Mattriss” across the forum and see for yourself just how lowly he is regarded. 

 

We’re all sick of his crap. 

 

Mattris is absolutely right in most of his points. 

What you just posted is not only insulting, it's exactly the thing you criticise.

 

It seems you got no arguments left, you lost the discussion against the excellent points Mattris brought up and now you are like a whiny kid who can't accept that. 

 

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1 minute ago, Steve McQueen said:

Is this serious, or satire?

 

He's seriously out of ideas! I mean, look at him, he says the same thing three times in a row! He's giving Lucasfilm a run for their money. ;)

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1 minute ago, Steve McQueen said:

Is this serious, or satire?

 

This is absolutely serious.

Most Starwars fans i know (me included) think mostly the same like Mattris and are extremely dissapointed after TLJ.  

 

But there is this also vocal other side of the fandom who seem to wear their pink Mickey Mouse glasses and consider everything Disney-Lucasfilm does pure gold... to each their own i guess

 

The facts of Starwars in decline speak for themselves!

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Honestly, I feel pity now whenever Mattris or another poster on his side of the aisle delivers another rant. It's not just reasonable, understandable disapproval of TLJ, Kennedy and company, but just the outright hatred they exhibit.

 

I dunno, I hope one day they realize these big popcorn flicks aren't everything important in the world. If you're just going to get all fired up over something not turning out the way you hoped it to be, just move along and find something else you like.

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22 minutes ago, John said:

I dunno, I hope one day they realize these big popcorn flicks aren't everything important in the world. If you're just going to get all fired up over something not turning out the way you hoped it to be, just move along and find something else you like.

 

Thats what fans do, they care.

 

John you are here on the JWFan forum, you should know what fans are...

 

Fans become fans because they love something. Of course they also have the right to be extremely disappointed or even hate something... the more you love the more you may hate...

 

Your suggestion seems to stop being a fan and don't give a crap... are you serious?

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3 minutes ago, SF1_freeze said:

the more you love the more you may hate...

The more you love, the more you care, not hate.

You feel the need to point out what you believe to be wrong, yes, but you are able to still find joy in what is before you.

Do you love Star Wars, or are you simply obsessed? 

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1 minute ago, Steve McQueen said:

The more you love, the more you care, not hate.

You feel the need to point out what you believe to be wrong, yes, but you are able to still find joy in what is before you.

Do you love Star Wars, or are you simply obsessed? 

 

i wrote MAY hate...

 

Why must not liking something (even hating something) mean being obsessed?

Your question therefore makes no sense to me...

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44 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Can we just voice our opinions about the film

 

Everyone who has participated has made their opinions on "the film" (I assume you mean The Last Jedi) known, though. What is there to gain by voicing them anymore?

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6 minutes ago, Nick Parker said:

What is there to gain by voicing them anymore?

 

Don't ask me: Its @SF1_freeze that brought this topic back up.

 

If he has any new argument, though - I'm certainly up for the discussion.

 

At any rate, its better than the ad hominem stuff that the last few posts have been trafficking in.

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@Chen G.

I just reacted to the insulting post John made towards Mattris.

Someone has to, if the majority on this thread seems to not care anymore or even support such a behaviour.

 

And i bow to you Mattris, its a pleasure to read your well thought out and well articulated discussion points and arguments. And all that in the face of massive opposition and even nastiness by some posters in this thread.

 

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