Star Wars Disenchantment

[John 2,032]

As of now, my personal canon consists of the OT, the ST, and Rogue One. Nice and tidy; no extraneous novels, side stories, or major inconsistencies to keep track of. 

 

Everything else is irrelevant as far as I’m concerned. 

[Fabulin 3,510]

.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

The films are the only thing that matter but  those of you that like them go on and defend the books. They are so poorly written the writers really appreciate the fans

 

The Star Trek books are pretty gawd awful too just to be fair.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Knights of the Old Republic is the only expanded universe stuff worth anything. It happens to feature exactly zero Skywalkers, Solos or Fetts which is probably why.

[John 2,032]

10 hours ago, Fabulin said:

 

theologically speaking,

the prequels cannot be taken at face value because of too many plotholes, but the ideas behind them are quite good, so they can pass as "myths"

 

Yeah, with all the contradictions and visual discrepancies, it’s impossible for me to consider the prequels anything other than expanded universe material, plain fan fiction, or (my preference) even its odd little universe of its own. 

[Fabulin 3,510]

.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

41 minutes ago, Fabulin said:

In the new canon we get L33T or whatever her face with an SJW revolution and retconning the Falcon's computer instead

 

[Chen G. 3,944]

On 2/6/2019 at 6:23 AM, John said:

As of now, my personal canon consists of the OT, the ST, and Rogue One. Nice and tidy; no extraneous novels, side stories, or major inconsistencies to keep track of. 

 

Everything else is irrelevant as far as I’m concerned. 

 

Fair.

 

I'm a big proponent of people comprising their own "canon" out of what's out there. e.g. ignoring Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. To each his own.

 

However, I have to say that as time passes, I personally am more inclined to actually disregard the sequel trilogy, rather than the prequel one. Its not that they're the worst of the two, obviously. But they are by far the more redundant. The series already had a climax and denoument of-sorts in Return of the Jedi: Not much of a climax, but a climax nonetheless. There's absolutely no reason to have a substantial amount of plot happening after the climax.

 

 

Plus, even without the spinoffs, nine episodes is a lot, and its getting old, for me. There comes a point where enough is enough.

 

But I'll postpone my judgement till after IX.

 

By the way, I also don't think its necessarily appropriate to put all three prequels in the same bag, much like it isn't necessarily appropriate to put all three films in the "original trilogy" under the same umbrella. To my eyes, each trilogy is as internally heterogeneous as the sextet as a whole is. Empire Strikes Back is wildly different to the original Star Wars and to Return of the Jedi, and Revenge of the Sith is farily removed from The Phantom Menace.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I just hope they bring back Liam Neeson so he finds that Sith bastard and kills him.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,508]

"...and Qui Gon, would you just kill that bastard?!".

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Look at George Walton Lucas, who said "you provide the stars, I'll provide the wars".

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

4 hours ago, JoeinAR said:

They are so poorly written 

So they do fit with the movies then! 

[Fabulin 3,510]

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[Demodex 557]

Literally!

[John 2,032]

[Stempel 136]

I like the new Movies.

[Mattris 416]

How were "The Force can be wielded by anybody" and "greatness can come from the humblest of places" significant themes of TLJ?

 

On 2/5/2019 at 5:57 AM, Docteur Qui said:

Um... Rey’s entire emotional arc and the crux of her relationship with Kylo?

Luke’s monologue about the Jedi’s pride and guardianship of the Force being their downfall?

The... the final shot of the film?

I mean it can’t really get much more on point than that can it?

They’re entitled to the billions they’re still making from those fans from ticket sales and merchandise

They’re also entitled to do whatever they want with the franchise they bought for $5 billion. I’m sure they’ll consider offers if enough fans want to “buy it back” from them though.

 

"Rey’s entire emotional arc and the crux of her relationship with Kylo" had nothing to do with those themes you say the film contained.

 

"Luke’s monologue about the Jedi’s pride and guardianship of the Force being their downfall" That's not what Luke said. He told Rey "To say if the Jedi die the Light dies is vanity" - not the Force itself. And no one insinuated that.

 

Were Force-users Rey, Snoke, and 'broom boy' nobodies? Based on TFA and TLJ... and since the trilogy is not yet completed, we do not know. Kylo and Rey thought/felt that Rey's parents were "no one", but it's safe to say that neither knew the full truth of Rey's parents and her past. In her Force vision (in TFA), Rey saw the people she (thought she) grew up with on Jakuu leaving her on purpose. IX must clarify her origin. 

 

Disney/Lucasfilm bought Lucasfilm for $4.05B and are "entitled to do whatever they want with the franchise". They are "entitled to the billions they’re still making from those fans from ticket sales and merchandise" because that is earning business in the free-market. But they are entitled to nothing from the public... and will eventually have to answer for their choices, which have led to declining profits... and now loses from Star Wars merchandise sales.

 

No, Disney has too much invested to "consider offers if enough fans want to buy it back from them". With such a passionate fan-base, they know Star Wars should be a money machine... if they can satisfy enough people - most notably, the fans - enough to keep coming back. For that to happen, it's clear that more competent leadership is needed at Disney and Lucasfilm.

 

On 2/5/2019 at 6:36 AM, Demodex said:

False. Most fans love her even if she's the daughter of drunken traders. 

I'll be really disappointed if Abrams changes this. 

 

False. Most fans recognize the charisma of Daisy Ridley - even John Williams. But the fans will never accept Rey as a beloved figure of the franchise if she turns out to be a nobody from nowhere that needs no training to do everything.

 

On 2/5/2019 at 7:26 AM, Chen G. said:

But I'm still sure Episode IX will have a big haul.

 

After SOLO's epic box office failure, I'm surprised you are that confident. We will see what happens, but from a disenchanted fan's perspective, Disney/Lucasfilm are being ultra-defiant: re-upping KK's contract, prominent employees name-calling fans, RJ saying he has "never, not one single time, attacked someone for just not liking a movie", Bob Iger blaming the failure of a SW film on "too much" Star Wars. Without apologies or people being let go, the boycott will continue. Some feel that improved content alone (movies, shows, etc.) will not be enough to earn back their trust/business. Others have become so disinterested in the sequel trilogy - and the treatment of the fans - that they don't feel they will be boycotting; they're just done with Disney Star Wars.

 

On 2/5/2019 at 7:26 AM, Chen G. said:

Its true that they kind of painted themselves into a corner by making the character so powerful, but of the two choices of leaving his strength unexplained or having her connected to some pre-established lineage (which is just dumb) I prefer the former. Neither are terribly good choices, to be sure.

 

Why do you think having Rey connected to some pre-established lineage is "dumb"?

 

On 2/5/2019 at 7:26 AM, Chen G. said:

It'll never happen. He must have approved of this choice of Johnson's: he was the film's executive producer. Besides, I believe its the obvious choice for any sane writer/director to NOT reveal Rey to be related to someone. I sure wouldn't have done so, if I were directing the film.

 

JJ was given 'executive producer' credit, but he hasn't said or claimed anything regarding his involvement in the TLJ. And why would you think that the film's sole writer/director - Rian Johnson, who was specifically hired by Kathleen Kennedy for the job - would have needed approval (or taken advice) from one of the executive producers? JJ wasn't even the film's primary producer... and I suspect he had little - to nothing - to do with the story and characters of TLJ... or the direction they took.

 

On 2/5/2019 at 7:26 AM, Chen G. said:

At any rate, he has more than enough on his plate pushing the story forward towards its conclusion (which is an absolutely monumental task), to have the time and energy to go back and retcon such an element.

 

To move forward with the story, JJ may opt to go back first. At this point, I don't think that would be a bad idea. I'd bet he's been given all the "time and energy" and money he needs to do so... from Bob Iger himself.

 

On 2/5/2019 at 7:26 AM, Chen G. said:

if I got my hand on episode IX, you would have hated it much more than The Last Jedi, I assure you. I'd invent some eucatastrophe in which all force-users are forever cut-off from The Force. I'm still hoping for that kind of ending, to be honest.

 

Maybe I would've blown up The Falcon, too. Perhaps even done away with the opening crawl. Johnson doesn't look too bad now, does he?

 

I might accept everything you suggested, except doing away with the opening crawl. (For IX, I hope we get a new performance of the Main Title... and perhaps even the 20th Century Fox Fanfare if Disney is able to acquire the Fox film division. I will not get my hopes up for either of these.)

 

On 2/5/2019 at 8:19 AM, JoeinAR said:

Oh good Lord. None of those trashpile star wars novels are canon.

 

The new novels are canon. I've read a few of them and heard about half of them are well written. I suspect that Disney/Lucasfilm wanted the 'hard-core' fans to read (preferably buy) the books and comics to share the films' back-stories with the more-casual fans. Largely, this did not happen. So confusion and disappoint reigns within the fandom and general public.

 

12 hours ago, Stempel said:

I like the new Movies.

 

Why?

[Demodex 557]

30 minutes ago, Mattris said:

False. Most fans recognize the charisma of Daisy Ridley - even John Williams. But the fans will never accept Rey as a beloved figure of the franchise if she turns out to be a nobody from nowhere that needs no training to do everything.

 

😄😄😄😄😄

They already have. 

 

 

30 minutes ago, Mattris said:

So confusion and disappoint reigns within the fandom and general public.

 

Confusion about what?  

Disappointment doesn't reign in the circles of fans that I know. We all loved TLJ. 

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

"Rey’s entire emotional arc and the crux of her relationship with Kylo" had nothing to do with those themes you say the film contained.

 

Yeah they did. Ren deliberately uses Rey's identity issues to manipulate her into joining him as galaxy ruler. She is rocked to her core when she realises the truth - that she really is a nobody from nowhere - especially after spending a good portion of the film trying to understand her power and where it comes from. But then it becomes clear that she will nevertheless continue the legacy of the Jedi in Luke/Kylo's exchange ("I will not be the last Jedi"). Pretty clear cut example of "greatness from humble place", right there in Rey's arc.

 

 

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

Were Force-users Rey, Snoke, and 'broom boy' nobodies? Based on TFA and TLJ... and since the trilogy is not yet completed, we do not know. Kylo and Rey thought/felt that Rey's parents were "no one", but it's safe to say that neither knew the full truth of Rey's parents and her past. In her Force vision (in TFA), Rey saw the people she (thought she) grew up with on Jakuu leaving her on purpose. IX must clarify her origin. 

 

Really confused by this, you're now implying that the broom boy needs a backstory as well because he was shown using the Force? Why? It's obvious that the scene was placed there to reinforce that Force users can come from anywhere. This kid may grow up to be a hero, but for now he's an orphaned slave, just like Rey was.

 

IX has no need to clarify Rey's origin. It was explicitly stated in TLJ. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not there. It wasn't even an implication, it's right there in the dialogue (emphasis mine of course):

 

KYLO REN: No, no. You're still holding on! Let go! Do you wanna know the truth about your parents? Or have you always known? And you've just hidden it away. You know the truth. Say it. Say it.

REY: They were nobody.

KYLO REN: They were filthy junk traders who sold you off for drinking money. They're dead in a paupers' grave in the Jakku desert. You have no place in this story. You come from nothing. You're nothing. But not to me. Join me. Please.

 

It's no more ambiguous than Vader telling Luke that he's his father at the end of ESB. Luke accepts it and we, the audience accept it. Why? "Search your feelings, you know it to be true". The choice of language here is no coincidence.

 

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

4 hours ago, Mattris said:

Why?

 

I like them for the explosions, the sexy girls like Rey, Felicity and the Mother of Dragons, etc. I used to like the music, but after my acoustic trauma accident last year, I don't listen to music anymore, so it's unlikely I'll ever get to hear the score to Episode IX, since now I watch all movies either on mute or with the sound really, really low.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

On 2/5/2019 at 5:15 AM, dougie said:

Her great legs make up for it I 'spose.

 

She has vuhndaful muscles.

[Chen G. 3,944]

7 hours ago, Mattris said:

Why do you think having Rey connected to some pre-established lineage is "dumb"?

 

I just never saw the point of it. It may serve the mechanical purpose of explaining her powers, but it won't change her character. If anything, it'll rob her of her rags-to-riches traejectory. Besides, it feels like playing the same note of Empire Strikes Back for the umpteen time. Surely, people involved with Star Wars can come up with a twist other than some being related to someone else? It was already super cheap when they did it with Luke and Leia.

 

7 hours ago, Mattris said:

JJ was given 'executive producer' credit, but he hasn't said or claimed anything regarding his involvement in the TLJ. And why would you think that the film's sole writer/director - Rian Johnson, who was specifically hired by Kathleen Kennedy for the job - would have needed approval (or taken advice) from one of the executive producers? JJ wasn't even the film's primary producer... and I suspect he had little - to nothing - to do with the story and characters of TLJ... or the direction they took.

 

Its not that he was involved in the creative decisions, but I know that he read the screenplay, so he would have known what was in store from way back.

 

7 hours ago, Mattris said:

To move forward with the story, JJ may opt to go back first. At this point, I don't think that would be a bad idea. I'd bet he's been given all the "time and energy" and money he needs to do so... from Bob Iger himself.

 

Do you really see Abrams weaving flashbacks throughout Episode IX? He's got at least five character stories to bring towards a conclusion, a trilogy to wrap up, and backlot of six other films to at least nod to.  Do you think he'll have the time and energy to work in flashbacks? What do you think this is, a Tarantino flick?

 

Even if he was so inclined, there's little room for flashbacks in Star Wars. The original sextet has exactly zero flashbacks, and even the sequel trilogy has a grand total of two. And third entries typically have the fewest flashbacks (e.g. The Lord of the Rings) anyway.

 

7 hours ago, Mattris said:

I might accept everything you suggested, except doing away with the opening crawl. (For IX, I hope we get a new performance of the Main Title... and perhaps even the 20th Century Fox Fanfare if Disney is able to acquire the Fox film division. I will not get my hopes up for either of these.)

 

Really, you'd be okay with removing The Force?

 

The very thing that makes Star Wars Star Wars?!

[A24 4,327]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

 

Really, you'd be okay with removing The Force?

 

The very thing that makes Star Wars Star Wars?!

 

There was a time I would have considered that an interesting experiment but now that I've seen Rogue One I realize that Star Wars needs the force.

[Chen G. 3,944]

which is exactly why you need to remove it.

 

Its called eucatastrophe, and its the best way to close the book on a story of this kind.

[Holko 9,499]

Chen killed Star Wars: why Star Wars is DEAD explained!

[Chen G. 3,944]

I'd love to do that film, and see what happens. Its not too hard to concieve of: Rey discovers this is the only way to stop Kylo Ren (and his kind) in the books she salvaged from Luke, and spends the remainder of the film deliberating on whether or not to bring upon this event.

 

I really hope IX will be eucatastrophic to some extent, at least.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

It's like Starfleet having to reduce, or worse eradicate, its use of warp drive.

[A24 4,327]

Or making movies about King Arthur without including Excalibur. 

[Fabulin 3,510]

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[Chen G. 3,944]

10 minutes ago, Fabulin said:

if Rey switches off the Force, DT basically throws itself out of the canon orbit.

 

I wonder if people said this about Valhalla burning to ashes in Götterdämmerung...

 

Its called a satisfying ending: deal with it.

[Fabulin 3,510]

.

 

[A24 4,327]

It would be like Villeneuve making a Dune movie without "The Spice".

[Chen G. 3,944]

10 minutes ago, Fabulin said:

 But Norse sagas weren't a corporate investment

 

I'm talking from a storytelling perspective. Its what should happen.

 

Besides, Disney can make spinoffs set before IX for as long as they want, for all I care.

[Fabulin 3,510]

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[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

2 hours ago, dougie said:

It's like Starfleet having to reduce, or worse eradicate, its use of warp drive.

 

There's a season 7 episode of TNG that does just that!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

4 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

 

There's a season 7 episode of TNG that does just that!

 

I know!

[Demodex 557]

6 hours ago, Fabulin said:

if Rey switches off the Force, DT basically throws itself out of the canon orbit. I like this?

 

DT?  Don't you mean ST, for sequel trilogy?

[A. A. Ron 1,741]

6 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I'm talking from a storytelling perspective. Its what should happen.

 

Getting rid of the force is what should happen? The fuck you smoking?

[Chen G. 3,944]

Its called eucatastrophe.

 

The heroes triumph, but in the course of bringing that about, the thing that makes the world of the film special is withdrawn forever.

 

All the best finales do that.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Like Frodo. He saved Middle-earth, but in exchange can find no peace there.

[Fabulin 3,510]

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[Chen G. 3,944]

42 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Like Frodo. He saved Middle-earth, but in exchange can find no peace there.

 

I was thinking more along the lines that, when the Ring is destroyed, the Wizards and the High-Elves must leave.

 

You're left with a much more mundane version of Middle Earth, much closer to our own world.

[Demodex 557]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

Its called eucatastrophe.

 

The heroes triumph, but in the course of bringing that about, the thing that makes the world of the film special is withdrawn forever.

 

All the best finales do that.

 

I've been thinking this will be how Game of Thrones ends. 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

[Fabulin 3,510]

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[A24 4,327]

18 hours ago, Fabulin said:

They are no more "that really happened to these characters" than Moscow was the third Rome. 

 

 

To me, Han Solo frozen in carbonite was the last real thing that happened to him. Everything that came after was just a bad dream.

[Fabulin 3,510]

The third best Star Wars story to me are the 3 final episodes of TCW. I remember looking at their noir / investigation / court / fascism rising seriousness and comparing it to the goofiness, ancient puppets and hokey logic of Jedi....

[SteveMc 2,674]

For ease of critique from a certain sector.  

 

Quote

The Last Jedi (2017)

A couple of points.  First, the positives.  This is an exquisitely shot movie.  The special effects are top notch.  The acting is not bad at all (generally), even if the dialogue still leaves things to be desired.  I have no qualms about the movie's treatment of Luke.  It is spot on, and the dynamic between him and Rey is very engaging.  Interesting also is the dynamic between Rey and Kylo and between Kylo and Snoke, even though not knowing who the latter is at all is indeed pathetic.  

I really like the movie up until the rather stupid Leia flying through space bit.  After this, it is hit and miss.  Mostly miss.  The screenplay starts to display marked weakness.  Events begin to form for convenience's sake rather than naturally.  Holdo is not a well written character.  She feels like a plot device, as many characters start to feel.  We feel little for her and her sacrifice.  The coup d'etat subplot is rushed.  The way the rebels are written, they should by all rights be crushed by the First Order.

Then, there is the detour to Monte Carlo.  The way it is directed, it feels like another movie altogether, and a generic one at that.  Also quite naive.  In a week, the casino will be repared and the fathiers recaptured.  I don't really have any problem with Rose.  Still, the female characters are not as strongly written here as they could have been, especially considering how well, in my view, Johnson treats Rey.  In TFA, she was too powerful, too soon,  Here, she is more grounded, and thus, more relateable, realistic.  Now, I do have a problem with the hacker guy.  Almost 90s TV show levels with that guy.  Why couldn't Maz just come and do the hacking anyway?  Poor stuff, here.  

And, it painfully distracts from the really important elements of the story, the engaging, serious themes brought up by Luke's feelings of failure, Rey's certainties and uncertainties, Kylo's inner conflict.  We keep jumping from one thing to another, causing us to lose focus.  It also makes the movie too long.  In short, Johnson should have had a co writer on the project.

 

Anyway, to wrap up.  The conclusion is quite good, if a tad rushed perhaps.  Can't think of a better way for Luke to go.  I do wonder how Abrams will resolve everything.  As I have said before, Johnson did not leave much material for him to work with.  And as for the movie's humor, maybe it could be taken a couple of notches down, but I don't find it as bad as others do.

 

Overall, a decent movie.  I am not a big Star Wars fan.  I will note, however, that the movie does not have the same sort of feel that the OT has and that TFA clumsily tried to recapture.  Johnson tried to go in a new direction, but I'm not sure he is enough director to make it work perfectly.  This movie is not going to superbly stand the test of time.  Too much dross.  But, the silver shines nicely.  

3/4

 

Also, Kylo Ren being shirtless is completely needless.

 

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

On February 7, 2019 at 7:54 AM, Holko said:

Chen killed Star Wars: why Star Wars is DEAD explained!

I laughed at this very, very much.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Ever since Liam Neeson said he wanted to kill black people I just can't stand to watch The Phantom Menace.