Star Wars Disenchantment

[Chen G. 3,943]

And a larger sense of scale than the other two trilogies, and a more premeditated sense of storytelling from film to film.

[Arpy 4,145]

Yeah, for all the shit Lucas has copped, at least this was his beast to tackle and for better or worse it all felt cohesive.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I'm glad people love the prequels now.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

You ready for the sequel trilogy to be noncontroversial and beloved in 2035?

[Arpy 4,145]

After what, a decade? Maybe if we wait that long people might come around to TLJ 

4 minutes ago, The Original said:

I'm glad people love the prequels now.

 

2 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

You ready for the sequel trilogy to be noncontroversial and beloved in 2035?

snap.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

6 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

You ready for the sequel trilogy to be noncontroversial and beloved in 2035?

 

Tee El Jay will alwayth be tho woke

[Chen G. 3,943]

29 minutes ago, Arpy said:

least this was his beast to tackle and for better or worse it all felt cohesive.

 

Because, for once, he had an idea of the traejectory of the whole thing. He knew it was going to end with Anakin going evil and being burnt, with the republic usurped by Palpatine and the Jedi wiped out. He also knew, while writing episode I, that he wants to setup a forbidden romance between Anakin and Padme, so that it could play a part in the former's downfall.

 

Its not too much (its not like he had full scenes or characters like Count Dooku in his mind back in 1997) but its enough of a shape to at least give the three films a sense of cohesion which is unique among the three Star Wars trilogies.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

George Lucas should've directed the sequel trilogy. 

[Arpy 4,145]

18 minutes ago, The Original said:

 

Tee El Jay will alwayth be tho woke

 

[Chen G. 3,943]

2 minutes ago, The Original said:

George Lucas should've directed the sequel trilogy. 

 

As it currently stands, the sequel trilogy should never have happened.

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Just now, Chen G. said:

 

As it currently stands, the sequel trilogy should never have happened.

 

 

Disney shouldn't have bothered with sequels and instead focused on original and unrelated stories.

[Arpy 4,145]

I would argue that the sequel/legacy angle was the only successful way for more films to happen. 

 

[Chen G. 3,943]

But the story had reached its conclusion in Return of the Jedi.

[Larry O 115]

2 hours ago, Arpy said:

I'm with James Cameron on the point that at least the Prequels were imaginative and had weird, yet stylized designs. 

 

https://www.indiewire.com/2019/05/natalie-portman-star-wars-backlash-bummer-1202131095/

 

I love reading these little tidbits from the actors, especially interesting because these films were what got actors like Portman started. 

Portman was going to get work and be what she is now whether she took Phantom Menace or not. Also, this is pretty interesting as a quote: 

 

Quote

“With the perspective of time, it’s been re-evaluated by a lot of people who actually really love them now,” Portman said. “There’s a very avid group of people who think they’re the best ones now! I don’t have enough perspective to weigh in.”

 

The bolded is my emphasis. That's someone very familiar with politics very subtly removing themselves from a situation in which they'd have to admit that as movies on their own they probably do not work for her. The perspective she's lacking is of that "avid group of people" who are using a frame of reference that is honestly, self-marginalized. 

Not that it honestly matters what the people who make the movies think of the movies they made once they've finished their obligation to the production. But Natalie Portman isn't really speaking about whether she thinks the movies are good. What she's saying is that it sucked being looped into what was considered a disappointing series of films at the time, at such a young age, and that was how she learned that the cycle of over-hype/disappointment exists, on a giant scale to boot. 

Also, I disagree with the idea that the Prequels seem/feel "cohesive" in a way the other movies don't. Lucas was making these up as he went just as much, if not moreso. Certainly from the writing perspective, he spent much less time working on the screenplays and stories than he did in the 70s and 80s. IIRC, the Episode II script had Jonathan Hales brought on because he basically started production without having finished his first draft. It also explains why the story as he'd been describing it in the intervening years was so different every time he added a new chapter to it: He wasn't really checking his "notes" or any larger outline.  He just kinda sat down and made it up.

And that's a valid form of creation! Perfectly okay, and very often successful as a way to tell a story. But it's not necessarily "cohesive."

If anything, I'd argue that the Sequel trilogy (and to an extent, the Clone Wars tv series) is doing a better job making those six movies feel coherent than anything, because the sequel trilogy's vantage point allows for them to occupy the same space in "the past" and that backwards-looking POV tends to smooth out the discrepancies as a larger narrative is wrestled with.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

"There’s a very avid group of people who think they’re the best ones now!" - Natalie Portman

 

[Arpy 4,145]

@Larry O Hmm, 'not consulting his notes', eh? I very much doubt that because that would be a severe presumption to make, undercutting the creative process he must've employed. From what we know he had extensive notes in writing pads from which he drew his own lore from. 

12 hours ago, Larry O said:

If anything, I'd argue that the Sequel trilogy (and to an extent, the Clone Wars tv series) is doing a better job making those six movies feel coherent than anything, because the sequel trilogy's vantage point allows for them to occupy the same space in "the past" and that backwards-looking POV tends to smooth out the discrepancies as a larger narrative is wrestled with.

I agree on this point - they do serve to fill out the films in a way they couldn't, more time is spent developing characters that can't properly be done in a two hour film that needs to be broad enough to appeal to multiple audiences. The Clone Wars was great at strengthening these two things: Anakin and his relationships with Padme and Obi-Wan, and the camaraderie between the Jedi and Clones which makes the Purge feel more potent come Revenge of the Sith. 

 

[crumbs 14,300]

It takes more than just a mapped out, over-arching plan to make a good trilogy of movies. And even then, that prequel planning abandons significant plot threads like Sifo-Dyas between films (and don't give me some "it's explained in the books!" excuse -- Lucas specifically said this was a key element that would be explained in ROTS).

 

What the sequel trilogy might lack in an overarching plan, it makes up with quality film-making and well drawn characters. Not to mention significantly more energetic direction and actors delivering solid performances (it probably helps when they're not delivering dialogue as clunky as Lucas', to tennis balls on sticks).

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I just don't think Sifo Dyas matters.

[Arpy 4,145]

 

5 minutes ago, Ghostbusters II said:

I just don't think Sifo Dyas matters.

It's a silly name anyway!

Quote

The exact story behind that was that originally, the Kaminoans would have a funny accent and be somewhat difficult to understand. "Sido-Dyas" was just their way of pronouncing Sidious. Obi-Wan would have contacted the council to tell them, and they would have no idea who "Sido-Dyas" is

But because F is adjacent to D on a keyboard, someone made a typo when writing up the script, and GL thought Sifo-Dyas sounded cooler, so he modified a few things to incorporate the plot point we have now

I seem to recall back in the day, it was teased that the mystery of Sifo-Dyas would be fully explained in Episode III, but that (along with Boba Fett's revenge subplot) were cut. I think the very first script for Episode III would have resulted in about a 4 hour movie

Found this on some reddit thread. 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Sido Dyas.

[Arpy 4,145]

Cider Adidas 

[crumbs 14,300]

46 minutes ago, Ghostbusters II said:

I just don't think Sifo Dyas matters.

 

Exactly, in the bigger picture it's ultimately irrelevant. I'm just using it as an example of a story thread that just disappears between films. I think people greatly overstate Lucas' planning with the prequel trilogy. He knew the broad strokes and where things had to end up, but the journey getting there is still clunky as hell (as is Anakin's turning moment).

[Larry O 115]

1 hour ago, Arpy said:

@Larry O Hmm, 'not consulting his notes', eh? I very much doubt that because that would be a severe presumption to make, undercutting the creative process he must've employed.

 

But his creative process is one of the single most documented things in film history, and it's not the most disciplined thing. He almost constantly would say "this is how the story is going to go" and then when he would sit down to write the thing it almost never went the way he previously said it would go. A really good example is Vader's fight with Obi-Wan. For DECADES it was along the lip of a volcano, and the injuries were incurred by his falling INTO it (it varied whether he actually hit the magma inside, or if he simply burned along a ledge inside the crater). And then when he sat down to write the thing, suddenly it's a sprawling biathlon across an industrial facility that ends on a hillside, the injuries incurred by a badly timed jump into spinning lightsaber blades. 

 

It's why the assumption that Star Wars would be better if there was an overarching plan has always seemed a weird assumption to make - George Lucas has basically never subscribed to that notion. All his biggest successes come from his making it up as he goes. His biggest failures, as well. But George Lucas is a guy who enjoys winging it. He enjoys the excitement of a new idea, which is why his storytelling is almost always a collection of whatever newest ideas occurred to him as he's shooting, and whatever even newer ideas occurred to him in the edit. 

Remember: He never planned for Vader to be Luke's dad until after Brackett's drafts, and his own first two cracks at the story once she was off the project. And he never planned for Leia to be Luke's sister until he needed a convenient way out of the love triangle before Jedi wrapped up. He just made it up as he went. Sometimes you win those. Sometimes you die of a broken heart post-childbirth. It varies. 

[Chen G. 3,943]

I think having the story prefigured in the author's mind can be helpful, and while you're right that Lucas only had the broad strokes in his mind (whereas the devil's in the details) its still better than nothing.

 

In the prequels there are no head scratches like "I am your father" or "Leia's my sister." There are other issues, but the idea that Lucas had a traejectory is very much an upside, and one can feel it in watching the films.

 

As for the sequel trilogy, yes, they're better movies, but we don't need them. Anything set after Return of the Jedi is the equivalent of, say, Pirates of the Caribbean 4 and 5. The story has ended, and now you're just keeping the show going because you want "more" or, from the producers side of things, because money.

[Arpy 4,145]

I don't think that's the case at all, the Sequels have clearly set the precedent that these new stories are just as important - they use the characters from the OT without it necessitating any retrospective adjustments to our perception of the stories. 

 

Pirates 4 and 5 are different because there's no trajectory, there's no established character arcs, like in the trilogy.

 

It's like Avatar: The Last Airbender and The Legend of Korra, It began and ended with Aang's story, but it was later continued as Korra's. It was Luke's story in the OT, and now it's Rey's in the ST.

 

 

[Chen G. 3,943]

13 minutes ago, Arpy said:

It's like Avatar: The Last Airbender and The Legend of Korra, It began and ended with Aang's story, but it was later continued as Korra's. It was Luke's story in the OT, and now it's Rey's in the ST.

 

What you're essentially describing are spinoffs. But the sequel trilogy - per its name and its use of episode numbers - isn't a spinoff. Its clearly intended to be, in some respects, a continuation of the cycle.

 

And as a continuation of the cycle, its pointless. As individual films, I like them a lot, though.

[Arpy 4,145]

The Legend of Korra is a continuation of Avatar, a show about the reincarnation of a spirit through avatars...

 

 

[mstrox 6,643]

Jake Sully's spirit was reincarnated as an avatar as well.

[Fabulin 3,510]

.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Aw I wish @Red posted more.

[Jay 37,281]

Who?

[Disco Stu 15,495]

[Fabulin 3,510]

.

 

[John 2,032]

Hehe...

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

On 5/13/2019 at 9:54 PM, crumbs said:

 

Exactly, in the bigger picture it's ultimately irrelevant. I'm just using it as an example of a story thread that just disappears between films. I think people greatly overstate Lucas' planning with the prequel trilogy. He knew the broad strokes and where things had to end up, but the journey getting there is still clunky as hell (as is Anakin's turning moment).

 

I feel like I was the only one paying attention when Anakin's fear of loss was clearly established as well as his motive for turning to the dark side out of love. I don't think it could have been portrayed any better. What exactly did you people want Anakin's turn to be like? More dark and disturbing?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

How much more dark and disturbing could RotS get?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I wanted it to be more realistic and relatable!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

It's like Blade Runner. If you didn't enjoy it, you just didn't get it.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Worse than algebra 2.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

That's pretty boring. Worse than everything, even.

[Arpy 4,145]

What more do people want? Mace Windu denied him the rank of Master, alongside being manipulated and coerced by Palpatine to join the Dark Side in the hopes of saving Padme from his own vision. 

 

I guess Yoda needed to personally insult Anakin in front of the other Jedi (as they all laugh at him in a dizzying montage scene), then Padme needs to be seen with Captain Panaka on Naboo hinting at a possible love affair?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I didn't want it to make more sense, I wanted it to have more meaning.

 

 

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

It didn’t even need to be as dark or disturbing as it was. It just needed more weight behind it. 

 

More emphasis on the failings of the Jedi as a whole, more reasons for him to want to see them destroyed. Ironically Kylo Ren has more solid motivations than Anakin ever did.

[Chen G. 3,943]

There's precisely one element of Anakin's motivations as he goes bad which really really works: his relationship with Palpatine. It makes perfect sense of Anakin to side with him against those idiot Jedi.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I would agree with that.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

If you've been in love, you should be able to sympathize with Anakin. I know I would do anything for my love.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Especially if it's Natalie Portman at the height of her sexiness!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

 

It's not very fun not having a lightsaber when everyone else has a lightsaber and I get these guns that look like little hairdryers!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

36 minutes ago, Ghostbusters II said:

If you've been in love, you should be able to sympathize with Anakin. I know I would do anything for my love.

 

Thats not love, its madness.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I tort da battlwe wood taek pwace far fwom here. Dis is too cwose.