Star Wars Disenchantment

[crumbs 14,300]

Poor timing, overexposure, lacklustre marketing, negative press throughout production, and the controversial concept of recasting Harrison in that role were surely all contributing factors to that film's failure. It was a film nobody wanted nor asked for.

 

Lumping its failure on TLJ or fan backlash is laughable and ignorant. A convenient argument for TLJ-bashers with little basis in reality.

[publicist 4,643]

Why not, do you have a stake in the Walt Disney Company?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Box office is important in a lot of franchises though in determining audience interest. In many other franchises, one flop means no more movies.

[Chen G. 3,943]

22 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Lumping its failure on TLJ or fan backlash is laughable and ignorant.

 

While I do agree that Solo's failure is entirely its own fault (as a production, rather than as a film necessarily), there's is a negative trend here which I'm sure has people in Lucasfilm and Disney at least somewhat worried

[crumbs 14,300]

There was relentless negativity against the prequels during that trilogy, too. A large portion of Star Wars fandom has always been toxic; social media has just given the vocal minority a megaphone to hurl their vitriol.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

1 minute ago, crumbs said:

There was relentless negativity against the prequels during that trilogy, too. A large portion of Star Wars fandom has always been toxic; social media has just given the vocal minority a megaphone to hurl their vitriol.

 

Sexual politics weren't quite as vicious and divisive back then.

[Fabulin 3,510]

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[crumbs 14,300]

13 minutes ago, Norma's Corpse said:

Sexual politics weren't quite as vicious and divisive back then.

 

Well we all know who's to blame for amplifying the toxicity in that department, don't we?

[Mattris 416]

1 hour ago, Arpy said:

What does a film's box-office results say about one's enjoyment of the film? Mattris, you keep bringing up these numbers, but they don't mean anything, or at the very least they shouldn't inform one's opinion about the content of the film. Solo didn't do well financially, but that was down to a number of factors - poor marketing, production woes/bad press, and the fact it was released in a busy year against other films more likely to dominate the box-office.

 

Disney took a massive financial hit in 2015 with Tomorrowland which bombed so hard that they have almost tried to purge its existence from history (losses of $150m). That's a spectacular failure, Solo, on the other hand can afford to bomb. No one is losing sleep over this bullshit. 

 

You can enjoy Solo. But numbers do mean something. Rogue One, the other Star Wars spin-off film, made over a billion dollars at the world-wide box office. Solo did roughly a third of that because most fans didn't pay to see it more than once... or skipped it entirely. Did they do so exclusively because of The Last Jedi and the nonsense from Lucasfilm employees that followed... and still continues? No. But are you really trying to blame the failure of a Star Wars film on poor marketing, production woes, bad press, and other films showing at the time? A STAR WARS film ???

 

So, yeah, numbers do mean something... Over $2 billion still to make up, with sales down... At least 50% of your fans disenchanted... And 3 more years of Kathleen Kennedy, who is definitely losing sleep over this situation. It's safe to say that the profit of Episode 9 will determine her fate - not its score from critics.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

3 minutes ago, crumbs said:

 

Well we all know who's to blame for amplifying the toxicity in that department, don't we?

 

Feminithts?

[Mattris 416]

8 hours ago, crumbs said:

Well we all know who's to blame for amplifying the toxicity in that department, don't we?

 

In modern times, it began with Bill Clinton.

 

9 hours ago, crumbs said:

Poor timing, overexposure, lacklustre marketing, negative press throughout production, and the controversial concept of recasting Harrison in that role were surely all contributing factors to that film's failure. It was a film nobody wanted nor asked for.

 

Lumping its failure on TLJ or fan backlash is laughable and ignorant. A convenient argument for TLJ-bashers with little basis in reality.

 

All of your reasons (excuses) are the fault of Bob Iger and Kathleen Kennedy. The backlash is very real. We will see it again come next December...

 

9 hours ago, Norma's Corpse said:

Box office is important in a lot of franchises though in determining audience interest. In many other franchises, one flop means no more movies.

 

Correct. And in this case, two flops will mean no more KK.

 

8 hours ago, crumbs said:

There was relentless negativity against the prequels during that trilogy, too. A large portion of Star Wars fandom has always been toxic; social media has just given the vocal minority a megaphone to hurl their vitriol.

 

Don't forget the Russian bots and trolls!

 

Please define "toxic" ... and prove that the disenchanted are only a 'vocal minority'!

[Fabulin 3,510]

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[Holko 9,499]

Prove that you aren't, or that over 50% of the fanbase is disillusioned.

[crumbs 14,300]

[Arpy 4,145]

1 hour ago, Norma's Corpse said:

Box office is important in a lot of franchises though in determining audience interest. In many other franchises, one flop means no more movies.

In the case of the Star Wars franchise, and with Disney at the helm, Solo's flop is insignificant to me. If it was a saga film and flopped then I'd be concerned.

 

This isn't to say that I'm not disappointed by the fact it flopped.

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

 

You can enjoy Solo. But numbers do mean something. Rogue One, the other Star Wars spin-off film, made over a billion dollars at the world-wide box office. Solo did roughly a third of that because most fans didn't pay to see it more than once... or skipped it entirely. Did they do so exclusively because of The Last Jedi and the nonsense from Lucasfilm employees that followed... and still continues? No. But are you really trying to blame the failure of a Star Wars film on poor marketing, production woes, bad press, and other films showing at the time? A STAR WARS film ???

 

 

As crumbs pointed out, no one was clamoring for this film, and as a spin-off there's surely less investment in it by audiences who were hooked on the saga films.

 

'What's this hunk o' crap..."Solo"... is that a drink or somethin?' 

[Fabulin 3,510]

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[Arpy 4,145]

I've always been concerned Disney's ownership of Star Wars would have negative consequences. The franchise has always been a commercial powerhouse, but with the current MCU model of filmmaking, instead of getting a few Star Wars films, we're getting half a dozen and tv series and animated shows etc. to the point where it hurts to keep on milking it.

 

There's a power in leaving things up to the imagination of the audience, now all these films are going to give needless backstories for characters who didn't need one. Bossk (2022) Lobot's Run (2024) Cantina Band (2031) will be on the list of films to look out for.

 

It's perhaps the one area of agreement I can have with Mattris. 

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

1 hour ago, Norma's Corpse said:

 

Feminithts?

 

[Chen G. 3,943]

1 hour ago, Arpy said:

the current MCU model of filmmaking, instead of getting a few Star Wars films, we're getting half a dozen

 

Very true! Its not just that its overkill - its that its a model that Star Wars doesn't necessarily sit well with. The original sextet is more like The Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter: it has an overarching story, with a defined conflict and a certain set of characters that participate in it. Marvel is more episodic - its just the returning characters that form the throughline, rather than any one central conflict.

 

Kathleen Kennedy tries to apply both models to contemporary Star Wars (with the "saga" films and the spinoffs, accordingly), and I don't think they mesh together all that well.

 

1 hour ago, Arpy said:

There's a power in leaving things up to the imagination of the audience, now all these films are going to give needless backstories for characters who didn't need one.

 

Also true. Look at Boba Fett's backstory, both in Attack of the Clones and with the rumored James Mangold film - how is that going to work for new audiences "binging" the series? All this setup for a character that barely has any lines of dialogue and dies pathetically in Return of the Jedi?

 

The same is true going forward: unless IX offera really good conclusion, at the end of the day I think a lot of people would rather imagine that the series ended with Return of the Jedi, with the main cast alive and well.

 

 

[Fabulin 3,510]

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[Wojo 2,453]

I did not skip the Solo because of lingering bad feelings over TLJ. I saw TLJ exactly once, liked it for what it was, and didn't dwell on it again. 

 

I skipped Solo because my wife said she didn't like the main actor from the vibe she got in the trailers, so I didn't argue the point or go see it alone. We'll see it later via on demand. 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Couldn't you have gone to see it by yourself instead?

[Wojo 2,453]

I said I that I didn't. I could have. I could do anything by myself if I wanted to. But the last movie I saw by myself was Star Trek 2009 because my kike of an ex girlfriend had zero interest in it. 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I see everything by myself.

[Wojo 2,453]

Well if you don't have anyone else, that's your normal. Seeing a movie by yourself is like going out to eat by yourself: sad. 

[Demodex 557]

8 hours ago, Mattris said:

No doubt she asked him to included strong women and have Luke Skywalker die.

 

No doubt?  You don't think Johnson could have come up with Luke dying on his own?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Oh come on, Luke dying is probably something that was come in up early discussions for the new trilogy and something Johnson was required to write too.

[Holko 9,499]

Or at least strongly suggested to him from the moment he was hired.

 

Kennedy did say a few times 7 was Ford's movie, 8 will be Hamill's and 9 will be Carrie's. Now, that's not really possible anymore but we know TLJ was not altered because of Carrie's death. So probably killing them off one-by-one was planned very early on, probably one of the very few things they preset for the trilogy.

[Chen G. 3,943]

I don't think so. I think that - if there were caveats, they were more along the lines of "Rey needs to make it to the end, 'kay?". Otherwise, I think Johnson got to make the film that he wanted. I don't see any interest on Kathleen Kennedy's side to kill Luke Skywalker, at least prior to IX.

[Demodex 557]

6 hours ago, Mattris said:

Solo's failure at the box office is a direct result of TLJ (as a film) and the behavior of Lucasfilm towards the fans who were critical of it.

 

I know people that liked TLJ, and know NOTHING about Lucasfilm, and still didn't see Solo.  You may be right, but there were other factors involved. I wanted to see it in theaters at least one more time.  It was just bad timing.  I think if Solo came out this December it would have done better.

 

Episode 9 will no doubt turn a profit again.  I think that even people that didn't like TLJ will still see Episode 9 for several reasons.  People want to know if Rey's parents really are nobodies, how the film will handle Leia's character after Fisher's death, will Kylo turn back to the light or end up getting killed by Rey, how will the First Order be defeated when the Resistance is mostly gone, what will Luke do now as a Force ghost, etc.  There are a ton of reasons people will go see Episode 9.

 

My biggest question of all, @Mattris, is will YOU see it?  Or are you so disenfranchised that you've given up on Star Wars?  


 

6 hours ago, Mattris said:

 

Did you forget about hyperspace tracking, hyperspace ramming as a weapon, a Jedi Master refusing to use the Force, Force communication across a great distance (with bonus feature: physical interaction!), and Force projection?

 

These are all things that helped me be excited about this movie.  Thanks for pointing out some good stuff!

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

Spoiler

Kylo Ren will get his face ripped off by Chewbacca, and the audience applauds.

 

[Wojo 2,453]

3 minutes ago, kaseykockroach said:

  Hide contents

Kylo Ren will get his face ripped off by Chewbacca, and the audience applauds.

 

 

Bath salts! 

[A. A. Ron 1,738]

 

6 hours ago, Mattris said:

In modern times, it began with Bill Clinton.

 

Not a fan of Bill's, but wtf??

 

6 hours ago, Mattris said:

All of your reasons (excuses) are the fault of Bob Iger and Kathleen Kennedy. The backlash is very real. You will see come next December...

 

Yeah, I hated TLJ, but there's a little more nuance to the situation than that. Episode IX will do significantly better in the box office than Solo did. It won't compete with VII and might not do as well as VIII, but then again, it's the end of the trilogy and Disney will likely step up their game in terms of marketing. Honestly, much as I'd like to believe otherwise, I don't think Kennedy will be going anywhere when the trilogy ends, unless that's what she wants to do,

[Mattris 416]

On 10/7/2018 at 7:58 AM, Arpy said:

In the case of the Star Wars franchise, and with Disney at the helm, Solo's flop is insignificant to me. If it was a saga film and flopped then I'd be concerned.

 

This isn't to say that I'm not disappointed by the fact it flopped.

As crumbs pointed out, no one was clamoring for this film, and as a spin-off there's surely less investment in it by audiences who were hooked on the saga films.

 

After TFA, Rouge One didn't flop... a film that no one was "clamoring for".

 

On 10/7/2018 at 7:13 AM, Holko said:

Prove that you aren't, or that over 50% of the fanbase is disillusioned.

 

The burden of proof is on those who call us a 'vocal minority'. I can only point to Solo's disastrous box office showing... and thousands of Youtube videos filled with millions of comments from disillusioned fans.

 

On 10/7/2018 at 11:19 AM, Holko said:

Or at least strongly suggested to him from the moment he was hired.

 

Kennedy did say a few times 7 was Ford's movie, 8 will be Hamill's and 9 will be Carrie's. Now, that's not really possible anymore but we know TLJ was not altered because of Carrie's death. So probably killing them off one-by-one was planned very early on, probably one of the very few things they preset for the trilogy.

 

Correct. Shame they felt the need to kill them off one-by-one. In trying to 'pass the torch' to the young cast to garner new fans, they may have lost half of the 'old' fans.

 

On 10/7/2018 at 11:20 AM, Demodex said:

I know people that liked TLJ, and know NOTHING about Lucasfilm, and still didn't see Solo.  You may be right, but there were other factors involved. I wanted to see it in theaters at least one more time.  It was just bad timing.  I think if Solo came out this December it would have done better.

 

Released in December, Solo might have cracked half-a-billion (half a Rouge One) and made back its all-in-budget - embarrassing for a Star Wars film. What was "bad" was the film-makers insulting fans (customers). I can't stress this enough.

 

On 10/7/2018 at 2:00 PM, Muldoon said:

Not a fan of Bill's, but wtf??

 

Yeah, I hated TLJ, but there's a little more nuance to the situation than that. Episode IX will do significantly better in the box office than Solo did. It won't compete with VII and might not do as well as VIII, but then again, it's the end of the trilogy and Disney will likely step up their game in terms of marketing. Honestly, much as I'd like to believe otherwise, I don't think Kennedy will be going anywhere when the trilogy ends, unless that's what she wants to do,

 

@crumbs was implying who's to blame for "amplifying the toxicity" in sexual politics, making it more vicious and divisive. I don't think he had Bill Clinton in mind, though.

 

Marketing is not Disney's problem... it's Human Resources and Public Relations. The shameful, demeaning language from numerous Lucasfilm employees toward concerned/upset fans needs to stop... and should have never happen in the first place! People don't appreciate being insulted... and will cease giving for Lucasfilm their business until they apologize or Kathleen Kennedy is no longer with the company. Some are completely done with Disney Star Wars.

 

No matter what happens, she will not be fired... or at least it will not be announced that way. But if Episode 9 doesn't make a billion dollars, she'll step away... without being allowed to choose her successor.

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

5 hours ago, Wojism said:

I said I that I didn't. I could have. I could do anything by myself if I wanted to. 

 

Well you're a big boy!

[Demodex 557]

@Mattris, you didn't answer my question. A simple yes or no. 

 

I'm watching TLJ right now. I'm still not seeing Mattris's faults in it. I think I like it more each time. 

[Fabulin 3,510]

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[Mattris 416]

7 hours ago, Demodex said:

Episode 9 will no doubt turn a profit again.  I think that even people that didn't like TLJ will still see Episode 9 for several reasons.  People want to know if Rey's parents really are nobodies, how the film will handle Leia's character after Fisher's death, will Kylo turn back to the light or end up getting killed by Rey, how will the First Order be defeated when the Resistance is mostly gone, what will Luke do now as a Force ghost, etc.  There are a ton of reasons people will go see Episode 9.

 

My biggest question of all, @Mattris, is will YOU see it?  Or are you so disenfranchised that you've given up on Star Wars?

 

None of my friends or family members has any desire to pay Lucasfilm at this time. But yes, I will see Episode 9 eventually. But unless two of the following events occur:

 

1. Kathleen Kennedy has 'moved on'

2. Bob Iger (or the Lucasfilm president) sincerely apologizes for their employees' careless/insulting Twitter behavior directed at fans

3. Multiple trusted fans within the 'Disenchanted Community' say the film is worth supporting

 

... I will not see Episode 9 in theaters. Many fans feel the same way. And for some, all three of these criteria must be met before they would even consider seeing it.

[crumbs 14,300]

 

[Demodex 557]

I don't think #1 or #2 on your list is going to happen.  I really don't know why you're taking all this so damn seriously.  I do feel sorry for you. 

[Mattris 416]

I love Star Wars. I'm "taking all this so damn seriously" because Star Wars is currently in the worst state it's ever been. You may not realize - or want to acknowledge - this yet, but come next December, you will.

 

I feel sorry for those who like this heavily-flawed, purposely divisive film... and largely - or completely - dismiss the Lucasfilm's shameful, reckless behavior towards the franchise and fandom.

[Romão 2,274]

Mattris, I'm genuinely curious, could you provide with some examples of Lucasfilm employees insulting fans on twitter?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

10 hours ago, Wojism said:

Seeing a movie by yourself is like going out to eat by yourself: sad. 

 

Nah. It's fun!

[Bespin 8,475]

Can you change the title of this thread for "Life Disenchantment".

 

Mercy.

[Demodex 557]

3 hours ago, Mattris said:

I love Star Wars. I'm "taking all this so damn seriously" because Star Wars is currently in the worst state it's ever been.

 

Dude, do you remember when the prequels came out and they got tons of criticism?  I like Episodes 7 and 8 more than the prequel trilogy.  I don't know what you mean by worst state it's ever been in because I'm happier with it now than I was 5 years ago.

 

3 hours ago, Mattris said:

You may not realize - or want to acknowledge - this yet, but come next December, you will.

 

I'm sure Episode 9 will be great, and I don't really care if maladjusted nerds don't go see it.  I don't give a shit if it doesn't make a ton of money.  It's not like I'm getting a cut.  Actually, less crowded theaters makes it a better experience for me. 

 

 

3 hours ago, Mattris said:

I feel sorry for those who like this heavily-flawed, purposely divisive film... and largely - or completely - dismiss the Lucasfilm's shameful, reckless behavior towards the franchise and fandom.

 

I don't feel sorry for people that think the prequels were great, and those were pretty flawed and divisive.  I don't care what Lucasfilm's behavior is as long as they keep making great movies.

 

 

3 hours ago, Mattris said:

...and largely - or completely - dismiss the Lucasfilm's shameful, reckless behavior towards the franchise and fandom.

 

As long as they keep making great movies I don't give a shit what else they do.  I've enjoyed all 4 of the Disney SW films, and that's most important thing.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Let's get real. Have any of the Star Wars movies been "great"? I mean it's not like we're talking about Star Trek.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

11 hours ago, Wojism said:

Well if you don't have anyone else, that's your normal. Seeing a movie by yourself is like going out to eat by yourself: sad. 

[Demodex 557]

I go out to eat and go to movies by myself all the time.  It's not that big a deal.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

It is when that's your only available option!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

People fret at the idea of being seen by total strangers at the cinema by themselves. Never understood why.