Star Wars Disenchantment

[Arpy 4,145]

I disagree, it wasn't a victory, but a resounding defeat - the Resistance barely managing to escape and with fewer than fifty people. Rey's arc is still left incomplete, even in more tatters than TFA...

 

 

[Chen G. 3,949]

Yeah, but you know its not going to stick for very long, come Episode IX...

 

Its the equivalent of the cliffhanger of Infinity War. Baller on the face of it - but not really.

[Arpy 4,145]

Don't mention that despicable film in this domain.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

Dethpicable! 

[Chen G. 3,949]

6 minutes ago, Arpy said:

Don't mention that despicable film in this domain.

 

Yeah, I remember you don't like it (although I do), but the point remains.

 

The Last Jedi is a film that thinks (and convinces its fans) that its more balsy than it actually is. Its not at all the bad film that @Mattris is making it out to be - but its really not that good, either.

[Arpy 4,145]

Oh I agree with you on that point, I'm leaning more towards the point that it's because it doesn't conventionally follow the Star Wars tropes that has caused this dissonance - both in the poor reception of some fans and in it being quite a refreshing experience.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

It's a film about nothing but it's convinced that it's something.

[Arpy 4,145]

If it's not a film about something, at least it is a film.

[Chen G. 3,949]

15 minutes ago, Arpy said:

it's because it doesn't conventionally follow the Star Wars tropes that has caused this dissonance - both in the poor reception of some fans and in it being quite a refreshing experience.

 

I don't think that the fact that The Last Jedi is deconstructive is what enraged fans: I think its the particular way that Johnson went about deconstructing the series. While I don't agree with them, I can certainly empathize with the likes of @Mattris for character choices that they feel are inconsistent with Luke's character. If you really, really think about that moment with Ben - it kind of doesn't add up. I didn't mind, though.

 

Conversly, if all those attempts of unpacking the Star Wars archetypes actually stuck, if they had been conducive to the characters' stories, and had they led to something that's meaningful and impactful (they didn't, really) than I think a lot more people like Mattris would be accepting of it. But in order to do so, Johnson will have had to a) craft a much stronger film than he ended up presenting, and b) make episode IX, not VIII. You can't spend everyone's time with what is essentially a middle chapter upstaging the tropes of the series, only for the next film to embrace them.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

But is it as worthwhile a film as this one? 

 

 

No. In fairness though, no film will ever be.

 

 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,528]

This thread is fubar.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

7 minutes ago, Richard said:

This thread is fubar.

 

At this point, and many points long since passed, I want this thread to be like an impregnated bed bug and go crawl in a corner to bleed out.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

You win points for creative analogy, sir.

[Mattris 416]

14 hours ago, Demodex said:

Since the movie engaged and entertained me, yes. I didn't mind any of those things.  If it has to have a lightsaber battle to be a good SW film then that says a lot about you. I didn't even notice there wasn't one until someone mentioned it. The story didn't need it. 

 

I disagree. TFA was more lazy, essentially a remake of ANH. 

 

Interesting that everyone I know liked it or loved it.  I guess I'm glad we're all in the minority. 

 

He did that by making a movie that I liked a lot more than I expected. But you're allowed to not like it. 

 

You're not a troll, but this thread is 64 pages of you saying the same thing over and over and over and over...

 

No, a SW film does not need a lightsaber battle to be good. Rogue One didn't have one, and I like that film... much more so after reading its novelization and prequel novel.

 

I call TLJ "lazy" because most of the film is a slow space chase, Rey's character advancing little to none, and Luke not leaving the island. Really, what was the point of it all? To portray failure? The film itself was an epic fail.

 

My last post contained new points... and new ways to explain repeated ones. I also posed some questions. Care to answer them?

 

14 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I wouldn't know about every character - Holdo and Rose (ironically, the two new characters) did do stupid stuff, and you could say that Rey's overly naive for going to Kylo but I think the latter's excusable. Ultimately, you can't be too judgemental of characters in movies - you're supposed to empathize with them.

 

That's JJ Abrams fault. What did you want Rian Johnson to do, stop his film dead to provide an explanation? On the one hand, you do want the different films of a trilogy (or a longer series, in its entirety) to fall into place, but on the other - you can't really expect a filmmaker to spend a significant chunk of his movie retconning another filmmaker's missteps.

 

When I first saw this in the theater, I appreciated that move for how bold it was. In a movie that feels like it thinks that its so very balsy when it really isn't, that was perhaps the one choice that I was truly impressed by.

 

But that was all but promised by The Force Awakens: we knew Luke was going to be desperate and that he will have turned his back to the struggle. On the one hand, I don't get what's there to praise (because its not like its a truly original, brave or surprising choice on Johnson's part), and on the other - I also don't get what's there to dislike so much, since its what we were in for, essentially from the first line of the crawl in The Force Awakens.

 

On the whole I suppose that, having Luke and Han (and effectivelly Leia, too) killed - and really just seeing them so old and weary - can be depressing to some. But that flaw a) could be worth it, in the grand scheme of things, if IX leads to a truly powerful conclusion and b) it is a flaw that's inherent to the concept of the sequel trilogy. Its something you should either come to terms with when you approach these films, or you'd be better off ignoring them alltogether.

 

Which main characters in TLJ do not do objectively stupid things on a regular basis?

 

I'm supposed to empathize with characters when all of them are routinely doing dumb things throughout the entire film? 'Dumb characters and events' Star Wars is not for me. I detected an agenda and distanced myself. I prefer elements like friendship, teamwork, bonding, romance, strife, pay-off, and cliffhanger moments... those found in every other Star Wars movie. Moments that don't involve Jedi Master Luke Skywalker comically tossing his original lightsaber over his back... over a cliff... without saying a word to the person who offered it to him. Sorry if I feel that this film was just too on-the-nose stupid to appreciate.

 

Don't blame JJ Abrams for Rian Johnson's inadequacies. Stop his film dead to provide an explanation? Explaining Rey's powers would have been as easy as "When Kylo looked inside my mind, I was able to see inside his... and I learned what he knows." Which, as TFA novelization explains, is exactly what happened. What we got in TLJ was, "We have to stop Kylo Ren because he is strong in the Dark Side of the force." See why I have a problem?

 

... you can't really expect a filmmaker to spend a significant chunk of his movie retconning another filmmaker's missteps.  All accounts suggest that JJ Abrams was highly disappointed in Johnson's sequel... so much so that he took the job to write and direct Episode 9 after he said he was done with this trilogy. I don't expect him to retcon Johnson's missteps. I expect him to ignore them almost completely.

 

A film can be bold, impressive, and appreciated. No need to praise TLJ just because it was 'different'.

 

Yes, we understood that "Luke was going to be desperate and that he will have turned his back to the struggle." But many predicted that Luke had secluded himself because he felt that he could not "take on the entire First Order with just a laser sword" and needed someone to inspire and compliment him... and eventually take over for him... perhaps someone uncommonly strong with the Force... Kylo's equal in the Light. Perhaps it is this person who has presented him with his old lightsaber? But no. We just got a grumpy, defeatist Jedi Master who decided to seclude himself forever... and only came to the rescue in 'projection' form, killing himself in the process. (Of course this is extra-frustrating because he may not have had to do this at all. "Why did you do that, Rose?!"

 

The "concept of the sequel trilogy" sucks: Lackluster new characters while utterly destroying the old ones. I have "come to terms with" what Kennedy & Co. have done and will be "ignoring them altogether" when thinking of the Star Wars I love.

 

14 hours ago, Arpy said:

At least we didn't get a by-the-numbers film, Johnson and Co. took risks in delivering what I believe to be one of the best Star Wars films.

 

@Mattris 'A deliberate insult to the majority of the fans'  - this has got to be the most ridiculous thing you've said in this thread. It's not just the fact that you're speaking for other people in some warped view of consensus, it's the complete misconception of everything the film tried to achieve.

 

I'm truly sorry the film didn't work out for you, but acting like you were entitled to more and left bitter over this film is just sad. 

 

A few pages back you said something like 'The customer is always right' what a fucking joke, a truly bizarre statement. Yeah, the customer's right when they roll around and cry on the floor that their expectations were subverted by a Star Wars film.

 

Johnson crafted his story knowing that it would 'subvert expectations'. This makes what he did deliberate. Did he know that most Star Wars fans probably wouldn't like the characters' stupid decisions, lack of story progression, on-the-nose social agenda, and a shadow of Luke Skywalker who faded away without a fight? Of course he did. He even called the fans "manbabies" when they complained about these very things. Insulting. By definition, this makes the film a deliberate insult to the majority of the fans.

 

Oh, I'm not entitled... but regarding my money, neither is Disney/Lucasfilm. Whoops!

 

'The customer is always right' rings true in a free-market capitalistic society. Star Wars is entertainment - not food or shelter. Make a product that people want... or go out of business. That's it. Fans' expectations mean something. Deliberately subverting expectations will do the film-makers absolutely no good in the long run. The "fucking joke" is that Lucasfilm thinks they can continue spitting in the face of the fans and expect to keep their jobs. Mark my words: Chuck Wendig is just first to go.

 

13 hours ago, Arpy said:

Obviously risks that fans like Mattris couldn't take. I would say one risk would be that there's no real resolution to the story, that everyone is worse off by the end of the film. It was depressing, and I love it for that.

 

As I said before, we now know what a skimp scant SW film looks like in the form of Rogue One and Solo - two decent yet unimpressive films that dared not step a toe outside of the established Star Wars iconography. @Mattris's statement said it all, complaining about the lack of a lightsaber duel as if that's what Star Wars needs to be whole and complete, another bloody lightsaber duel. I enjoyed TLJ for saying 'enough is enough' and discarding that bullshit for when it's needed - not as some throwaway spectacle for audiences who can't survive without them.

 

The fact that the film is 'risky' and "depressing" with "no real resolution to the story" is not my issue. It's how poorly the film delivered these elements.

 

I did not complain "about the lack of a lightsaber duel as if that's what Star Wars needs to be whole and complete". I merely asked if you liked the fact that TLJ didn't have one? Please read more carefully.

 

13 hours ago, Arpy said:

Oh I agree with you on that point, I'm leaning more towards the point that it's because it doesn't conventionally follow the Star Wars tropes that has caused this dissonance - both in the poor reception of some fans and in it being quite a refreshing experience.

 

Any dissonance in the fandom is the fault of those in charge of Disney and Lucasfilm... of being oblivious to what makes Star Wars so loved around the world... and for making such a divisive film. Blaming the fans will get you nowhere fast.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I can't follow these Star Wars threads anymore. I can't even recall which side "the resistance" were on. Bring back George and his shitty airport food.

[Demodex 557]

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

I also posed some questions. Care to answer them?

 

You did?  Why take the time to answer them when my opinion is obviously wrong?  You didn't like Luke tossing his lightsaber; I did. You chose to see an agenda; I didn't.  You didn't like the movie; I did.  I don't know what more we can discuss.  

 

 

11 hours ago, Mattris said:

Wouldn't you like all Star Wars films...

... to entertain and please the vast majority of fans and the general public?

 

Sure, but I don't complain about the prequels for 65 pages.  Now those were insulting. 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

But the prequels are good!

[Arpy 4,145]

I think I laid out my arguments for the brilliance of the Prequels quite clearly a few pages back - but I guess it's lost to time now.

[Mattris 416]

Weren't you being objectively sarcastic?

 

Care to dispute my response, specifically that TLJ was a deliberate insult to the majority of the fans'  not being "the most ridiculous thing" I've said in this thread? While your at it, have a go at disputing the other points I made.

 

5 hours ago, Demodex said:

You did?  Why take the time to answer them when my opinion is obviously wrong?  You didn't like Luke tossing his lightsaber; I did. You chose to see an agenda; I didn't.  You didn't like the movie; I did.  I don't know what more we can discuss.  

 

Sure, but I don't complain about the prequels for 65 pages.  Now those were insulting. 

 

Why do you keep saying that I think your opinions are wrong? By definition, they cannot be.

 

Why did you like Luke tossing his lightsaber in the way that he did?

 

I didn't "chose to see an agenda" in the film. It clearly had them in spades. One of them: Women are strong and/or in charge; men are flawed. The prominence of this theme means that it was not an accident or coincidence... or that I had to search deep to discover it.

 

Questions I already asked:

 

- What was the point of The Last Jedi as the second film in this trilogy? Specifically address Rey’s purpose and character arc.

- If Episode 9 doesn't even make one billion dollars worldwide, what will be your explanation?

- I'm sure Disney's high-ups and shareholders would like the films to entertain and please the vast majority of fans and the general public. Given the company's vast capabilities and deep pockets, there is no reason the films couldn't do this. But clearly, they are not doing it. Why do you think that is?

[Arpy 4,145]

@Mattris I don't really care if there's a Lightsaber duel or not, it simply doesn't factor into my appreciation for the films - and that includes the films with Lightsaber duels in them. Revenge of the Sith offered a lengthy duel sequence which I felt was necessary for that film - but here we go again, whether something feels necessary and can be justified by the narrative. There's no use having a duel for the sake of tradition.

 

To your complaint over Disney spitting in the face of fans and not delivering to their audiences - I'll just say that for as much (concentrated) hatred as I've seen, I've seen the same love and enthusiasm from the fans - even after the online backlash, TLJ was still on top of DVD and home entertainment sales to boot.

 

For you to come in here and offer clearly subjective opinions about the film and the state of the franchise and act like you're the enlightened one, is nothing short of delusional.

 

I'm sorry Mattris, but based solely on box office sales statistics, stories of the firing and replacement of Lucasfilm/Disney employees etc. still leaves you in the dark about the true operations and intentions of a multi-billion dollar company. I'm not saying these statistics don't paint a palid picture of the state of the franchise, but you're claiming to know things you can't and slandering the intentions of filmmakers over something akin to personal injury. 

 

The truth is that many people found TLJ to be an enjoyable experience and loved the film, and a strong concentrated online presence have voiced their disappointment with the film too. 

 

 

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

58 minutes ago, Mattris said:

I didn't "chose to see an agenda" in the film. It clearly had them in spades. One of them: Women are strong and/or in charge; men are flawed. 

This is such a useless thing to argue against. Women are strong and frequently in charge. Men are flawed. And the reverse of both is also true, in real life and in Star Wars. What is wrong with depicting that? Is it because the last 7 movies have depicted men in charge and women as flawed and you want it to stay that way?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

11 minutes ago, Docteur Qui said:

This is such a useless thing to argue against. Women are strong and frequently in charge. Men are flawed. And the reverse of both is also true, in real life and in Star Wars. What is wrong with depicting that? Is it because the last 7 movies have depicted men in charge and women as flawed and you want it to stay that way?

 

ALL MEN MUST DIE

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Valar Morghulis!

[Arpy 4,145]

Valar Dohaeris sounds more appropriate.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't men and women be in charge and flawed at the same time? Cuth feminithum??

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

As often happens these days Mattris' major malfunction seems to be rooted in his penis.  He just can't deal with women being anything but slipper fetching supper preparers.  I ask you though, can we expect more from a Texan?

[Arpy 4,145]

Texas has spawned many a great artist over the years! 

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Texas?!  Holy dogshit!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Once a man from Texas

Went to see the circus

He lifted up the canvas

And saw the lady's bare arse.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Private Mattris has dishonored himself and dishonored the platoon.  I have tried to help him...but I have failed.  I have failed because YOU have not helped me.  YOU people have not given Private Mattris the proper motivation!  So, from now on, whenever Private Mattris fucks up, I will not punish him!  I will punish all of YOU!  And the way I see it ladies, you owe me for ONE DUMBASS THREAD!  NOW GET ON YOUR FACES!

[Mattris 416]

18 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:

This is such a useless thing to argue against. Women are strong and frequently in charge. Men are flawed. And the reverse of both is also true, in real life and in Star Wars. What is wrong with depicting that? Is it because the last 7 movies have depicted men in charge and women as flawed and you want it to stay that way?

 

What women in the last 7 movies have depicted women as flawed? Did you forget that the leader of the Rebellion (Mon Mothma) was a women? The characters of Queen/Senator Padme Amidala and Princess/Senator/General Leia Organa are universally praised. Have you come across anyone who had a problem with those smart, strong, in-charge female characters of Star Wars? I haven't.

 

My issue the the women in TLJ is that all of them are strong to the detriment of the men. Rose controlled (literal along-for-the-ride) Finn at every turn... and even prevented him from making the ultimate sacrifice. Out-of-nowhere Holdo denied (demoted) Poe's plan inquiries and requests to help. Rey seemed to shrug off (pathetic) Luke Skywalker's advice and just left him as abruptly as she arrived. 'Commander' Hux was played as comic relief. Seemingly invincible Supreme Leader Snoke got cut in half by his apprentice with a Force trick. DeeJay turned out to be a back-stabbing opportunist. Kylo needed Rey's help to defeat the Pretorian Guardsmen... and then asked her to join him after she asked him to come back to the Light. And after thinking that his former master would allow himself to be defeated by laser fire, Kylo was utterly humiliated in front of his army... and failed to defeat a few dozen Resistance fighters that were all but weaponless.

 

That's what wrong with the depiction of men and women in TLJ.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

I likes bow-legged wimmins! I hates all palookas!

[Mattris 416]

15 hours ago, Arpy said:

@Mattris I don't really care if there's a Lightsaber duel or not, it simply doesn't factor into my appreciation for the films - and that includes the films with Lightsaber duels in them. Revenge of the Sith offered a lengthy duel sequence which I felt was necessary for that film - but here we go again, whether something feels necessary and can be justified by the narrative. There's no use having a duel for the sake of tradition.

 

I already agreed with you on this. Please read my previous posts.

 

15 hours ago, Arpy said:

To your complaint over Disney spitting in the face of fans and not delivering to their audiences - I'll just say that for as much (concentrated) hatred as I've seen, I've seen the same love and enthusiasm from the fans - even after the online backlash, TLJ was still on top of DVD and home entertainment sales to boot.

 

Please direct me to the "same love and enthusiasm from the fans". TLJ's Blu-ray sales are half that of TFA in the US. The fact is, the fan backlash will continue to negatively affect the sales all Star Wars merchandise in a major way.

 

15 hours ago, Arpy said:

For you to come in here and offer clearly subjective opinions about the film and the state of the franchise and act like you're the enlightened one, is nothing short of delusional.

 

I've said I hated the film... but also gone into detail regarding the major issues with the characters and events within it. You cannot deny the issues themselves - just that you didn't mind them... or liked them.

 

Regarding 'the state of the franchise', I provided facts and directed you to numerous Star Wars Disenchantment channels/videos that have an extremely high like-dislike ratio. SOLO, a theatrical Star Wars film, just bombed majorly! Merchandise sales are in the dumps. If you think these issues are nothing to worry about and just the result of Star Wars fatigue... or the result of backlash from a 'vocal minority', then yes, compared to you, I am "the enlightened one". If you think the backlash is dying down - or will largely be over - by the time Episode 9 comes around, it's you who are delusional.

 

15 hours ago, Arpy said:

I'm sorry Mattris, but based solely on box office sales statistics, stories of the firing and replacement of Lucasfilm/Disney employees etc. still leaves you in the dark about the true operations and intentions of a multi-billion dollar company. I'm not saying these statistics don't paint a palid picture of the state of the franchise, but you're claiming to know things you can't and slandering the intentions of filmmakers over something akin to personal injury.

 

I'm just putting together the most logical explanation of what's happening with Star Wars. Is Kathleen Kennedy's story-group a diverse group of writers from all sides of the political spectrum? Probably not. Apart from Han Solo in his titular film, all the protagonists in the films (and the latest video game) have been women. I'm not saying that inherently is a problem... but is it a coincidence? They have an agenda, and it's not to please most people... to make the most money. Or are they just inept?

 

Slandering the intentions of filmmakers? Their Twitter comments alone paint quite a clear picture of the state of the franchise. ("Manbabies", "threatened by women", "We don't care. 🤷‍♂️")

 

Don't think for a second that Star Wars is too big to fail. It may have to before it can rise from the ashes.

 

15 hours ago, Arpy said:

The truth is that many people found TLJ to be an enjoyable experience and loved the film, and a strong concentrated online presence have voiced their disappointment with the film too. 

 

I may be part of "a strong concentrated online presence", but Solo did not loose $200M online. Most fans (customers) that paid to see the other spin-off film (Rouge One) skipped it. Don't think for a second that they won't skip Episode 9 as well if no significant changes (improvements) are perceived by the fans before its release.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,528]

Fubar.

[Arpy 4,145]

Yeah, okay Mattris. I guess we'll just have wait and see Episode 9 dominate the box office... again, for your points to be nothing more than paranoid delusional fluff.

 

 

[Mattris 416]

Please define "dominate the box office". I predict it doesn't even break $1 billion.

 

We don't have to wait to see my "points". It's happening as we speak. I posted links showing majority fan disenchantment and dropping merchandise sales. And we all know what happened with the latest film. Please direct me to the "same love and enthusiasm from the [happy] fans".

 

I challenge you to dispute any of my facts and theories with facts and theories of your own.

[Holko 9,526]

Look on this very forum where people (both fans and more casuals) not hating the movie (ranging from those loving it to those more indifferent), based on those who have talked about it, are absolutely in the majority. In fact, you are the only one here who keeps tying to argue against it. I remember back in December 3-5 people really didn't like it, since then all I've seen are 1-2 minimalist posts saying "I didn't really like 7 or 8" or so. That's it.

 

"proof": Look at this poll:

In January, out of 45 votes here, 7 voted for something less than ambivalent, 3 of those being more prominent members and 1 being a notorious but hilarious troll.

 

I'm aware JWFan is not representative of the fandom, but you asked for the same kind of link you provided, and those were definitely not representative either. In fact, a forum with many film and music lovers should be a more balanced source than random comment sections filled with members of an agenda-driven angry vocal minority mob known for actively seeking out stuff they don't like just to trash it.

[Chen G. 3,949]

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

Please define "dominate the box office". I predict it doesn't even break $1 billion.

 

🤣

Episode IX is going to be a box office success. I guarentee that.

 

Whether its going to be a terribly good movie? I'm not too optimistic, actually. Last entries in a trilogy don't have the best of track records.

 

12 hours ago, Mattris said:

Moments that don't involve Jedi Master Luke Skywalker comically tossing his original lightsaber over his back... over a cliff... without saying a word to the person who offered it to him.

 

That is correct.

 

12 hours ago, Mattris said:

Don't blame JJ Abrams for Rian Johnson's inadequacies. Stop his film dead to provide an explanation? Explaining Rey's powers would have been as easy as "When Kylo looked inside my mind, I was able to see inside his... and I learned what he knows." Which, as TFA novelization explains, is exactly what happened. What we got in TLJ was, "We have to stop Kylo Ren because he is strong in the Dark Side of the force." See why I have a problem?

 

That's a terrible explanation! Not that Rian Johnson's any better, he just let Snoke explain that Rey was born to be as strong as Kylo as part of the natural balance. They way Rey is infinitely capable in The Force Awakens was such that the filmmakers wrote themselves - and any other filmmaker approaching the character - into a corner. The only believable way to explain it was to connect her to an established, powerful lineage from the earlier films - which would have been cheesy and anticlimactic as hell. I never expected Johnson to go there, and it was better to just eschew an explanation alltogether, really.

 

I will say, I don't mind her uber-competence as much as you do. I find the characters' internal state much more significant than their capabilities. Rey, more in The Force Awakens but in this one, still - is filled with self-deprecation and doubts.

 

12 hours ago, Mattris said:

... you can't really expect a filmmaker to spend a significant chunk of his movie retconning another filmmaker's missteps.  All accounts suggest that JJ Abrams was highly disappointed in Johnson's sequel... so much so that he took the job to write and direct Episode 9 after he said he was done with this trilogy. I don't expect him to retcon Johnson's missteps. I expect him to ignore them almost completely.

 

'Tis bollocks. There's no evidence to back this rumor up. The only reason this narrative exists is that Johnson's and JJ's films are so diametrically opposed: one is a retread of an existing film, the other - goes against that film (at least, superficially) at every chance it gets. That doesn't mean that the filmmakers themselves are diametrically opposed in their opinions. You do of course know that JJ is an executive producer on this entire trilogy, right? He will have seen Johnson's film take shape, and approved of it.

 

JJ just had to make a "safe", formulaic film: The Force Awakens just had too much riding on its back to take too many chances. I doubt he really wanted to make a deriviative film, and I don't expect him to make one with IX, either.

 

12 hours ago, Mattris said:

Yes, we understood that "Luke was going to be desperate and that he will have turned his back to the struggle." But many predicted that Luke had secluded himself because he felt that he could not "take on the entire First Order with just a laser sword" and needed someone to inspire and compliment him... and eventually take over for him... perhaps someone uncommonly strong with the Force... Kylo's equal in the Light. Perhaps it is this person who has presented him with his old lightsaber? But no. We just got a grumpy, defeatist Jedi Master who decided to seclude himself forever... and only came to the rescue in 'projection' form, killing himself in the process. (Of course this is extra-frustrating because he may not have had to do this at all.

 

Wait, you expected Luke's desperation not to be presistent throughout a large portion of this film? You expected him to gather his wits within twenty or thirty minutes and go join the good guys?! That's as stupid as anything that's actually in The Last Jedi, I'm afraid.

 

As for his astral projection: well, it was more conducive to what he was trying to do than actually showing up. I will admit that his death may feel somewhat unearned. If he had died in IX I think it would have felt more naturally earned.

 

12 hours ago, Mattris said:

The "concept of the sequel trilogy" sucks: Lackluster new characters while utterly destroying the old ones. I have "come to terms with" what Kennedy & Co. have done and will be "ignoring them altogether" when thinking of the Star Wars I love.

 

I'll wait till after IX to pass judgment, but yeah, the entire concept's flawed. Return of the Jedi closed the book on Star Wars. It didn't do a terrific job of it, but it did it, nonetheless. So there's really no reason for more episodes other than that "George always intended to make nine films" bollocks and "give us money!" Still, we'll see if IX can somehow manage to tie everything together.

12 hours ago, Mattris said:

I detected an agenda and distanced myself.

 

Just to speak to this point: while I dissaprove of Kathleen Kennedy's behind-the-scenes gender-equity policy (i.e. the idea that the work-place should be split 50/50 gender-wise) I don't know quite how much that spills into the actual film. Yeah, the ratio in the onscreen cast is getting closer to 50/50 (which I suppose in the action/adventure genre would be disconcerting) but expressions of outright toxic feminism are few and far in between, and are never all that blatant, anyway.

 

The closest thing to it is actually in The Force Awakens when Rey consistently has an issue with Finn who, out of nothing  but good intentions, grabs her by the hand. There's nothing of this sort in The Last Jedi. All you're pointing to are incidental things that occur as part of the plot - not an actual talking point in the movie.

[Demodex 557]

 

47 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

Episode IX is going to be a box office success. I guarantee that.

Seriously.  Of course it's going to be.  Even people that didn't like TLJ are going to go see it for the numerous reasons I've posted before.

[Arpy 4,145]

It ain't gonna be a Solo situation, this is going to be the last installment in this new sequel trilogy, there's no doubt people will see it! Even Battle of the Five Armies amassed a powerful box office return, and reviews for the last two weren't strong. 

[Chen G. 3,949]

Plus, this is a sequel; not a spinoff or prequel. Its how the story "ends" (kinda).

 

People will want to see that, even if they don't admit to wanting to.

[Arpy 4,145]

I don't want to see it but I have to so I can end this travesty once and for all

[crumbs 14,315]

Remember how The Phantom Menace made a billion dollars, then Attack of the Clones only made $650m? And despite years of vitriol from Star Wars fanatics endlessly whinging about how much of an abomination the prequels were, Revenge of the Sith went on to make $200 million dollars MORE than the preceding film?

 

The idea that IX will bomb is wishful thinking from a cringeworthy, vocal minority of keyboard warriors, bashing out post after post of anti-Rian Johnson, anti-Kathleen Kennedy, conspiracy-theorist delusion on any forum that'll listen.

 

They'll be the first ones in line next December. 🤣

[Chen G. 3,949]

11 minutes ago, crumbs said:

cringeworthy, vocal minority of keyboard warriors, bashing out post after post of anti-Rian Johnson, anti-Kathleen Kennedy, conspiracy-theorist delusion

 

Does that come in a more vitriolic size?

 

Yes, the idea that IX will bomb is absolutely idiotic. The criticisms against Johnson and Kennedy is in part idiotic, but in part isn't.

 

As it stands, @Mattris has made several good points (if excruciatingly long-winded and often overblown) against The Last Jedi, and the sequel trilogy as a whole (and - by proxy - against the people at its helm) over the course of this thread.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

You shouldn't say bad things about women on the internet. Remember, they are inherently weaker than we are and arguably more sensitive and neurotic, so it's best we just let them have their way with SW.

[Chen G. 3,949]

14 minutes ago, Norma's Corpse said:

they are inherently weaker than we are and arguably more sensitive and neurotic, so it's best we just let them have their way with SW.

 

I seem to recall that men, on average, score much higher on neuroticism. But I could be mistaken.

 

At any rate, the idea that both sexes are perfectly similar is not wholly based in fact. So it makes sense for some genres (action-adventure) to be dominated by males, while others (romance) to be dominated by females.

 

Making the cast or the staff of the production company split at 50/50 is not an ideal of western society.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Just now, Chen G. said:

At any rate, the idea that both sexes are similar is not wholly based, scientifically.

 

Is that a completed sentence?

[crumbs 14,315]

49 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

As it stands, @Mattris has made several good points (if excruciatingly long-winded and often overblown) against The Last Jedi, and the sequel trilogy as a whole (and - by proxy - against the people at its helm) over the course of this thread. 

 

Which I take no issue with. People are entitled to dislike movies I like and hold different opinions to mine. But I'm going to call out total bullsith when I see it.

 

I've been open about my criticism of things I didn't like in TLJ, but that's where it stops for me. It's just a movie. The incessant ranting, the conspiracy-theorist delusions about the new trilogy being some kind of feminist propaganda to indoctrinate children goes way beyond, "taking issue with some of the creative decisions in the sequel trilogy." It's as idiotic as saying the original film has a masculinist agenda because all the characters who make decisions in that film are men, and men end up saving the 'damsel in distress' from the Empire, and men end up saving the galaxy by blowing up the Death Star.

 

Some people clearly have way too much time on their hands and, frankly, need some goddamn perspective in their lives.

[Demodex 557]

5 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Making the cast or the staff of the production company split at 50/50 is not an ideal of western society.

 

I see nothing wrong with it. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Ditto.