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The Official Thread to Absorb All the Hostility of JWFan

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ADMIN NOTE: THE FIRST 6 1/2 PAGES OF THIS THREAD WERE ORIGINALLY POSTED IN THE SOLO THREAD AND LATER MOVED HERE

 

CLICK HERE FOR NICK PARKER'S ORIGINAL MAIN POST OF THIS THREAD WITH AN EXPLANATION FOR THE THREAD'S TITLE.

 

solo score.JPG

 

I have lost all faith in RT's user rating system. This is in no way representative of the percentage of audiences who liked this film. Obvious manipulation, just like in the case of The Last Jedi's audience score.

 

Edit: ever since TLJ made me aware that RT's audience scores (and IMDB for that matter) are easily corrupted due to their almost nonexistent curation and verification, I've decided to not trust audience scores at all. Most polls/reviewing boards, that allow for easy public access, are susceptible to manipulation. 

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42 minutes ago, John said:

I have lost all faith in RT's user rating system. This is in no way representative of the percentage of audiences who liked this film. Obvious manipulation, just like in the case of The Last Jedi's audience score.

 

There is literally no reason to doubt The Last Jedi audience score is accurate. The critics and many in the general audiences loved it, sure. But a significant part of an enormous fan base absolutely reviles it. I don't know why this is so shocking to those of you who somehow liked it.

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When it comes to Star Wars, I don't even bother checking the ratings and reviews and stuff, at least when it comes to my decision to go see the movie. I make my decision when the film is announced. If it's Star Wars, I'm seeing it.

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On 5/25/2018 at 1:30 PM, John said:

 

At the time of the film's release, you only needed to look around places like Twitter and Facebook to see how the RT was manipulated. Heck, I've actually encountered people on social media who claim they are partly responsible for the movie's low audience score. Even if you think there's no way that could've been the case, there was definitely a campaign to lower the score, which largely succeeded. Also take into account the fact that hardcore fans are much more likely to rate the movie on RT than the casual fans/audiences who vastly outnumber them. Audience polling surveys like Cinemascore, comScore, and SurveyMonkey are much more reliable when it comes to the percentage of people who liked/disliked the film.

 

In all honesty, the way many fans reacted after The Last Jedi was frankly embarrassing. Not liking a movie is one thing, and that's perfectly fine, but what happened goes far beyond that. The movie isn't perfect, not by a long shot, and there are some legitimate arguments for the problems with it. But the utter vitriol that was spewed by the anti-TLJ crowd toward the film and its creators, especially Johnson and Kennedy, is reprehensible and inexcusable.

 

Remember when Rick and Morty fans started riots at McDonald's because they couldn't get a packet of sauce? Yeah, the Star Wars fan base is getting close to that level of juvenility.

 

I don't think I've ever agreed with anything more!!!! I love TLJ, including it's flaws, but even if I hated it I'd still be able to recognize that a lot of these people, mostly on youtube, have become truly unhinged about a movie that not one of us can fully understand until answers come out in Episode 9. I also find RT to be a bogus poll with insignificant sample rates that most likely filled out by the same 18,000 morons who are subscribers to Geeks and Gamers Youtube Channel.

 

I liked Solo a lot. It's far from my favorite Star Wars film and I think it could of used a tighter edit in places. But it was a perfectly enjoyable stand alone film that featured not only a likable cast but it pulled off the impossible....an acceptable young Han Solo. Two years ago I thought that was an impossible task. I'm happy to say I was wrong. 

 

Kudos to you John for saying what's been on my mind for months. Especially this..."the utter vitriol that was spewed by the anti-TLJ crowd toward the film and its creators, especially Johnson and Kennedy, is reprehensible and inexcusable."

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On 25/05/2018 at 11:16 AM, John said:

I have lost all faith in RT's user rating system. This is in no way representative of the percentage of audiences who liked this film. Obvious manipulation, just like in the case of The Last Jedi's audience score.

 

First of all, Rotten Tomatoes' official description of Solo starts with "A flawed...". Currently, 62% of the audience "liked" Solo, with an "average rating" of 3.4/5. How do you think those audience scores are manipulated? The "top critics" gave Solo a 59%. I see no discrepancies here.

 

On 25/05/2018 at 11:58 AM, Muldoon said:

 

There is literally no reason to doubt The Last Jedi audience score is accurate. The critics and many in the general audiences loved it, sure. But a significant part of an enormous fan base absolutely reviles it. I don't know why this is so shocking to those of you who somehow liked it.

 

Correct. Rotten Tomatoes is representative of all who post a review - positive or negative. Unless I'm mistaken, anybody in the world can post a review/rating.

 

On 25/05/2018 at 12:30 PM, John said:

 

At the time of the film's release, you only needed to look around places like Twitter and Facebook to see how the RT was manipulated. Heck, I've actually encountered people on social media who claim they are partly responsible for the movie's low audience score. Even if you think there's no way that could've been the case, there was definitely a campaign to lower the score, which largely succeeded. Also take into account the fact that hardcore fans are much more likely to rate the movie on RT than the casual fans/audiences who vastly outnumber them. Audience polling surveys like Cinemascore, comScore, and SurveyMonkey are much more reliable when it comes to the percentage of people who liked/disliked the film.

 

In all honesty, the way many fans reacted after The Last Jedi was frankly embarrassing. Not liking a movie is one thing, and that's perfectly fine, but what happened goes far beyond that. The movie isn't perfect, not by a long shot, and there are some legitimate arguments for the problems with it. But the utter vitriol that was spewed by the anti-TLJ crowd toward the film and its creators, especially Johnson and Kennedy, is reprehensible and inexcusable.

 

Remember when Rick and Morty fans started riots at McDonald's because they couldn't get a packet of sauce? Yeah, the Star Wars fan base is getting close to that level of juvenility.

 

By "a campaign", do you mean "the many individual disgusted and impassioned Star Wars fans who decided to voice their opinion of the film in various ways"? You are correct to say that "hardcore fans are much more likely to rate the movie on RT than the casual fans/audiences who vastly outnumber them." But those fans significantly affect the overall approval/acceptance of a Star Wars film. Compared to The Force Awakens, The Last Jedi had a 36% drop-off in box office returns. And with the (probable) overall financial loss with Solo, Disney/Lucasfilm are clearly not making films that the general audience (or the fans) want. Profits and public perception of the latest Star Wars films are significantly dropping. This sounds like failing business to me.

 

It's Kathleen Kennedy and her team who should be embarrassed. The Force Awakens was lazily written as a copy of A New Hope. Rogue One had production issues and had major re-shoots. Rian Johnson made The Last Jedi to appease Kathleen Kennedy's feminist/SJW agenda and to spit in the face of the fans. The original directors of Solo were fired late in production. The original director/writer of Episode 9 was replaced. And finally, numerous Lucasfilm employees have called complaining fans, sexist and racist on Twitter. Sounds like movie-making "juvenility" to me.

 

On 27/05/2018 at 10:56 AM, Nick Parker said:

 

From a lot of what you guys say, it sounds like Lawrence Kasdan lost his mojo. :(

 

And his son, Jon, a co-writer on the film is quite a strange guy, to say the least. Just read his Solo "pitch" on Twitter. And immediately before the film was released, Jon Kasdan announced that Lando Calrissian was pansexual. I'm sure that didn't help with the box office returns, including families who just wanted to take their son or daughter to see the latest Star Wars movie.

 

On 28/05/2018 at 12:19 PM, John said:

Solo is miles above Rogue One. You get likeable and developed characters, a great score, and a mostly fun atmosphere. You get none of that in Rogue One. The characters were all pretty much cardboard cutouts who didn't progress at all throughout the movie, whose motivations and backgrounds are not clearly explained outside of simple tidbits of exposition and dialogue, and who didn't even seem to have much of a bond with each other or care at all about their own lives. To me, the hollow characters in Rogue One made it feel far less of a Star Wars film than Solo

 

Keep in mind that Rogue One featured all-new characters and happened in a matter of days. Solo featured established, beloved characters and had significant time jumps. As far as characters go, Rogue One was clear: The protagonists cared about the success of their greater cause more than their own lives. From what I've heard/read, it's Solo's characters who are "cardboard cutouts", obviously written to be interesting, but lacked gravitas required to earn the 'emotional' events they take part in.

 

On 28/05/2018 at 8:20 PM, Disco Stu said:

As for this movie bombing, I’m convinced that Memorial Day weekend is cursed.  Ever since the tentpole movie season moved up to early May (and now late April) almost every movie that comes out Memorial Day bombs.  It’s like the rhythm of summer movie season or something.  Tomorrowland, Pirates 5, X-men Apocalypse, MIB3, Terminator Salvation.  All bombs or underperformers

 

It's easy to explain those movies failings: They were just not good. Movie-goers (and particularly the fans) hold Star Wars movies to a higher standard. People in the know realize what's happening here: Kathleen Kennedy is the curse.

 

19 hours ago, Indianagirl said:

 

I don't think I've ever agreed with anything more!!!! I love TLJ, including it's flaws, but even if I hated it I'd still be able to recognize that a lot of these people, mostly on youtube, have become truly unhinged about a movie that not one of us can fully understand until answers come out in Episode 9. I also find RT to be a bogus poll with insignificant sample rates that most likely filled out by the same 18,000 morons who are subscribers to Geeks and Gamers Youtube Channel.

 

I liked Solo a lot. It's far from my favorite Star Wars film and I think it could of used a tighter edit in places. But it was a perfectly enjoyable stand alone film that featured not only a likable cast but it pulled off the impossible....an acceptable young Han Solo. Two years ago I thought that was an impossible task. I'm happy to say I was wrong. 

 

Kudos to you John for saying what's been on my mind for months. Especially this..."the utter vitriol that was spewed by the anti-TLJ crowd toward the film and its creators, especially Johnson and Kennedy, is reprehensible and inexcusable."

 

You love the TLJ's flaws? Its countless flaws were fatal. We'll see how Episode 9 turns out. But based on what I've seen so far, I don't think those in charge of Lucasfilm are capable of salvaging this sequel trilogy.

 

17 hours ago, crocodile said:

Not a flop but with all the behind the scenes drama it probably cost 300 million to make. And same again in marketing. They might struggle to turn a profit this time. Plus you're talking about worldwide gross, not domestic.

 

A Star Wars film makes just a quarter of its production/marketing budget in its opening weekend? Mark my words, Solo will be a major flop.

 

16 hours ago, leeallen01 said:

It seems that Star Wars fans wont just mindlessly see a Star Wars movie because it's Star Wars. The fans have spoken. They want a better product, or Disney doesn't get their money.

 

Bingo.

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41 minutes ago, Mattris said:

By "a campaign", do you mean "the many individual disgusted and impassioned Star Wars fans who decided to voice their opinion of the film in various ways"?

 

Nice way to euphemise the embarrassingly childish fanbase response to TLJ.

 

This is literally the third comment down in a Solo article I just read on a popular film website:

Quote

Disney: I will put the situation very simple after TLJ atrocity:

Close your eyes, then just picture Anakin Skywalker (Fans) entering the chamber in Mustafar where the whole separatists (KK, RJ, Story group) are sitting and the Anakin close the doors with the force you can figure out the rest.

 

Seriously, that's beyond the pale. These are just movies. Veiled death threats for the filmmakers and producers, simply because they didn't make the movie that all the fans were pleading for? And that comment is probably one of the more tame ones. Just go look at any of the comments on Rian Johnson's twitter page and some of the posts are sickening.

 

If that's your definition of, "voicing an opinion," you seriously have no idea.

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Kathleen Kennedy stated that film-makers assumed that female film-goers could not identify with Luke Skywalker and Han Solo (because they were white men) so they decided to include/feature women and other races in their latest films.

 

Did you not notice that all men in The Last Jedi are inadequate in some way: submissive, cowardly, disposable, back-stabbing, indecisive... or played as comedic effect. And the women are commanding and shown without flaw.

 

Disco Stu, you'd be wise not to ignore those like me. Mrs. Kennedy is attempting to ignore the fans (or wave goodbye as your GIF portrays) as her Empire burns around her. The fans are the key to her films' success, and she will not have the last laugh.

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13 minutes ago, crumbs said:

 

Nice way to euphemise the embarrassingly childish fanbase response to TLJ.

 

This is literally the third comment down in a Solo article I just read on a popular film website:

 

Seriously, that's beyond the pale. These are just movies. Veiled death threats for the filmmakers and producers, simply because they didn't make the movie that all the fans were pleading for? And that comment is probably one of the more tame ones. Just go look at any of the comments on Rian Johnson's twitter page and some of the posts are sickening.

 

If that's your definition of, "voicing an opinion," you seriously have no idea.

 

Some may have reacted in a childish way. I do not condone physical threats of any kind. That kind of language is absurd and outrageous. My reaction is communication via the internet... and not giving Disney my continued business unless they produce a film I want to see... and that is not agenda-driven.

 

Let me be clear: I am not upset "because they didn't make the movie that all the fans were pleading for". I am upset because The Force Awakens was a lazy copy, The Last Jedi was purposely offensive, and Solo is not faithful to the character of Han Solo.

 

If you think a Star Wars film is bombing in theaters because of some death-threatening fans, you seriously have no idea.

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2 minutes ago, Mattris said:

The Last Jedi was purposely offensive

 

Bullshit. Offensive to who?  Are you a little insecure in your masculinity or something?  It's a movie. Who cares which characters are male and which are female?

 

Grow a pair. You'll feel better. 

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Lol at the theses this has brought out of some people.  Good grief.  The only things I didn't like about TLJ was that Rey seemed sidelined, and Laura Dern's character was super lame.  Her whole bullshit with Poe was totally pointless and yes, did feel weirdly like it was contrived to make some dumb, awkward point.  Other than that it was fine and I detected no agenda.  

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1 hour ago, John said:

 

Ah, so you're one of those types who hates "SJWs." Gotcha.

 

 

This is just deranged hyperbole. Disney is no Empire and you are no rebel. You need to seriously chill.

 

I do not "hate" SJWs. But I will not support Star Wars with identity politics as a central element.

 

Disney may not be an Empire, but they are the most important entertainment conglomerate in the world. And with Solo, I, along with millions of movie-goers and Star Wars fans worldwide, have voted with my dollar. I would call that rebelling. We fans who realize what happening to Star Wars are "serious", and we are not going to "chill".

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People keep saying they voted with their dollar by not seeing Solo.  Why didn't they vote with their dollar by not seeing TLJ?  I guess people just wanted to see it 4-5 times to make absolutely sure they hated TLJ.

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I only saw TLJ at the end of its theatrical run for 5 dollars because of all the controversy.

 

Anyone giving Solo an A rating is full of shit or has no taste. The first 45 minutes of the movie were pure shit and literally put me to sleep. It was a combination of boredom and how dark and ugly everything was. Terrible first half.

 

It doesn't deserve more than a C.

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I don't blame people for getting pissy about LFL trying to shoehorn socially relevant topics into Star Wars. That's something more for Star Trek... and ironically the latest Trek movies completely lacked any socially relevant stuff.

 

EDIT: oh there was that moment in Beyond where it suggested Sulu was gay, which George Takei wasn't pleased about.

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3 minutes ago, crumbs said:

The only people decrying "political agendas" in the Disney Star Wars movies are those who are very insecure about their own political beliefs.

 

Fancy construing a harmless humanitarian message like "animal cruelty is bad" as some kind of insidious political agenda. Fuck, must make Free Willy positively evil by comparison.

 

To fittingly quote a certain 80s female action hero, "did IQs drop sharply while I was away?"

 

But it had four whole women as main characters!  And one of them wasn't even white!  If that's not evil SJW bullshit, then I don't know what is!

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39 minutes ago, Mattris said:

We fans who realize what happening to Star Wars are "serious", and we are not going to "chill".

 

The amount of entitlement in this post is embarrassing. Sweet Zeus on a cracker, these are Star Wars movies you are talking about; when you reach adulthood, you may consider stopping giving half a crap about them and their implications on modern culture.

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1 hour ago, Taikomochi said:

I don't feel like responding to that wall of text @Mattris wrote, but I will continue to remind people that the audience score on Rotten Tomatoes is meaningless.  It is a self selected group, which creates bias towards those who are most passionate, in this case those who passionately dislike the new films.  The average Joe, who probably likes all the Star Wars films, does not give a fuck about the audience score on Rotten Tomatoes and so does not contribute ratings to it.  The score is absolutely not representative of everyone who has seen the film.

 

Cinemascore, who actually uses empirical data collection methods to poll audience members coming out films, gave TLJ an A and Solo an A-, reflecting that most audience members liked both films a lot.  But I'm sure there will be some conspiracy theory bullshit thrown around, not necessarily by Mattris but I've seen it online plenty, about how Disney rigs the polls.  But sure, let's trust a website like Rotten Tomatoes that can be raided by angry fanboys over an organization that actually uses empriical methods.

 

If those who passionately disliked Solo outnumbered "average Joe(s)" those who liked the movie, the Rotten Tomatoes score would continue to drop. However, the audience score raised 3% in a single day: Currently at 62%, with an "average rating" of 3.4/5.

 

Rotten Tomatoes is representative of all people who post a review - positive or negative. The "top critics" gave Solo a 59%. Why do think there is a discrepancy tilted to "those who passionately dislike the new films"?

 

I don't care if Cinemascore publishes a poll saying that that audience members think that Solo is an A-. Do they mean a 90%? That doesn't match the roughly 60% score that RT audience members and top critics gave it. Something is amiss here.

 

55 minutes ago, Taikomochi said:

People keep saying they voted with their dollar by not seeing Solo.  Why didn't they vote with their dollar by not seeing TLJ?  I guess people just wanted to see it 4-5 times to make absolutely sure they hated TLJ.

 

I can say with confidence that practically all who hated TLJ after a single viewing only saw it once. Most SW fans (and the general audience) paid to see the film out of curiosity. Compared to The Force AwakensThe Last Jedi had a 36% drop-off in box office returns. Solo will likely loose money. Lucasfilm is clearly not making films that people want. Profits and public perception of the latest Star Wars films are significantly dropping. This sounds like failing business to me. This is not a vocal minority in play here. The fans are disappointed!

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8 minutes ago, Mattris said:

 

 

If those who passionately disliked Solo outnumbered "average Joe(s)" those who liked the movie, the Rotten Tomatoes score would continue to drop. However, the audience score raised 3% in a single day: Currently at 62%, with an "average rating" of 3.4/5.

 

Rotten Tomatoes is representative of all people who post a review - positive or negative. The "top critics" gave Solo a 59%. Why do think there is a discrepancy tilted to "those who passionately dislike the new films"?

 

I don't care if Cinemascore publishes a poll saying that that audience members think that Solo is an A-. Do they mean a 90%? That doesn't match the roughly 60% score that RT audience members and top critics gave it. Something is amiss here.

 

 

I can say with confidence that practically all who hated TLJ after a single viewing only saw it once. Most SW fans (and the general audience) paid to see the film out of curiosity. Compared to The Force AwakensThe Last Jedi had a 36% drop-off in box office returns. Solo will likely loose money. Lucasfilm is clearly not making films that people want. Profits and public perception of the latest Star Wars films are significantly dropping. This sounds like failing business to me. This is not a vocal minority in play here. We are disappointed!

 

Literally anyone could make 10 accounts on rotten tomatoes and brigade the score. It’s not a reliable metric. You cite the fact that the score isn’t that negative as evidence that it’s not been brigaded, but really you are just defeating your own point by showing even when brigaded, the score still isn’t that low. There aren’t as many of you as you think

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Funny how nobody cared about the overt anti-George W. Bush commentary in ROTS, or the obvious anti-Vietnam parallels in ROTJ. Yeah, this whole "political commentary" business in Star Wars is exclusive to Kathy Kennedy and Disney.

 

Puh-leeze.

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1 minute ago, crumbs said:

Funny how nobody cared about the overt anti-George W. Bush commentary in ROTS, or the obvious anti-Vietnam parallels in ROTJ. Yeah, this whole "political commentary" business in Star Wars is exclusive to Kathy Kennedy and Disney.

 

Puh-leeze.

 

Lucas was/is political up the wazoo. Listen to his audio commentaries and it's like every scene of the prequels is a play on some modern political event (Vietnam to then present, as you say). It could've been really cool if he wrote it better!

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1 minute ago, Taikomochi said:

 

Literally anyone could make 10 accounts on rotten tomatoes and brigade the score. It’s not a reliable metric. You cite the fact that the score isn’t that negative as evidence that it’s not been brigaded, but really you are just defeating your own point by showing even when brigaded, the score still isn’t that low. There aren’t as many of you as you think

 

Disney/Lucasfilm shills, as well as those who genuinely loved Solo, could also "make 10 accounts on rotten tomatoes" to inflate the score. So "you are just defeating your own point".

 

No one has any idea how many like me there are in the world. But I refuse to see Solo in the theaters, and it isn't doing so well. Like you, I don't think Disney cares too much about Rotten Tomatoes scores. But they do care that a Star Wars film will struggle just to make back its cost.

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16 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Funny how nobody cared about the overt anti-George W. Bush commentary in ROTS, or the obvious anti-Vietnam parallels in ROTJ. Yeah, this whole "political commentary" business in Star Wars is exclusive to Kathy Kennedy and Disney.

 

Puh-leeze.

 

I never said that. If you want to debate/discuss this issue, fine. But please stop putting words in my mouth.

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2 minutes ago, Margo Channing said:

And what will Disney/LFL do about it if the product continues to struggle to make returns?

 

Disney should promptly fire Kathleen Kennedy. I, and many others, would pay to go see Solo as a "thank you".

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7 minutes ago, Mattris said:

 

Disney/Lucasfilm shills, as well as those who genuinely loved Solo, could also "make 10 accounts on rotten tomatoes" to inflate the score. So "you are just defeating your own point".

 

You’re exactly correct. Which is once again why I believe the RT audience score is bullshit. Anyone can brigade it. Stop citing it as if it were reliable. It is not.

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6 minutes ago, Margo Channing said:

And what will Disney/LFL do about it if the product continues to struggle to make returns?

 

Hopefully, stop making shitty movies. If that means no new Star Wars, I'm fine with that. The ones I love are enough.

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2 hours ago, Taikomochi said:

I am still chuckling that it is now considered a political statement to say animal cruelty is bad.

 

Animal cruelty is bad. Do most people consider horse racing bad? Regardless, those kind of modern statements do not belong so blatantly in a Star Wars film. Much of the TLJ's script/story is embarrassing.

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3 minutes ago, Muldoon said:

 

Hopefully, stop making shitty movies. If that means no new Star Wars, I'm fine with that. The ones I love are enough.

 

They seem to be stubbornly standing by their product, even defiantly so against the writing on the wall regarding dollars.

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The film has bombed simply because no one was crying out for it. That, combined with the problems during backstage, the divisiveness of TLJ and the simple fact that we’ve gone into Star Wars overkill. People went to see Rogue One because it was something new - (oooh a anthology film unrelated to any of the Episodes, that’s different!). 

I also think future anthology Star Wars film need a bigger name in the lead role for them to be a draw for potential viewers. If it was a Han Solo film starring Harrison Ford, for example, people would go just for him.

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9 minutes ago, John said:

 

The amount of entitlement in this post is embarrassing. Sweet Zeus on a cracker, these are Star Wars movies you are talking about; when you reach adulthood, you may consider stopping giving half a crap about them and their implications on modern culture.

 

You seem to care about Star Wars movies enough to argue (on an internet forum) with a person of the opposing view. The implications of Star Wars on modern culture may be more important than you realize.

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8 minutes ago, Taikomochi said:

 

You’re exactly correct. Which is once again why I believe the RT audience score is bullshit. Anyone can brigade it. Stop citing it as if it were reliable. It is not.

 

Do you have any thoughts on RT "Top Critics" 59% review score?

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