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THE COWBOYS (1972) - NEW! 2018 Varese Deluxe Edition


Jay

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Though a single release would probably fall with a thump as Williams is right about the lack of musical interest, it would be much more appropriate to tack the 10 minutes of interest onto another, longer release.

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Someone asked about the film earlier. While it's decent enough for what it is, I have some major ethical issues with it. More in this old FSM post here:

 

http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=20176&forumID=1&archive=1

 

(scroll down a bit).

 

As for this release, I'm actually completely satisfied with my old, reverse-channel release. But I'll probably check out the digital promo, just for curiousity's sake.

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I never had any issues with the sound on the old release. Sounded pretty good for its age, and the reverse-channel thing doesn't bother me much. In fact, it's kinda fascinating, because it's such an unusual set-up. But yes, I do expect this to improve the sound even more.

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1 hour ago, Amer said:

I asked this question over at FSM:

 

Does anybody remember this was prepped as a 'complete release' more than a decade ago with a track list on some label and listed on Barnes and Nobles website? And then it was gone ! 

 

Rumours were that Williams nixed the album when he found out that it was coming. This was around the time when THE BLUE  MAX and THE REIVERS were being issued on the Sony legacy label. Long time ago and my memory on this a bit hazy.

I remember it had this cover.

R-3865022-1347370475-9258.jpeg.jpg

 

 

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6 hours ago, Amer said:

I asked this question over at FSM:

 

Does anybody remember this was prepped as a 'complete release' more than a decade ago with a track list on some label and listed on Barnes and Nobles website? And then it was gone ! 

 

Rumours were that Williams nixed the album when he found out that it was coming. This was around the time when THE BLUE  MAX and THE REIVERS were being issued on the Sony legacy label. Long time ago and my memory on this a bit hazy.

 

It was part of a John Wayne box set that was announced in October 2009.

 

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/18195-john-wayne-box

 

http://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=63046&forumID=1&archive=0

 

https://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=116505&forumID=1&archive=0

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7 hours ago, pete said:

 

Are you sure? I find it hard to believe he listened to it and didn't realize it included something he didn't write. 

 

I don't think you read Mike's post and/or my earlier post carefully enough. The 90s Varese CD (which wasn't approved by Williams) has the TV show main title track by Sukman; this release (approved by Williams) does not.

 

 

 

6 hours ago, Amer said:

I asked this question over at FSM:

 

Does anybody remember this was prepped as a 'complete release' more than a decade ago with a track list on some label and listed on Barnes and Nobles website? And then it was gone ! 

 

Rumours were that Williams nixed the album when he found out that it was coming. This was around the time when THE BLUE  MAX and THE REIVERS were being issued on the Sony legacy label. Long time ago and my memory on this a bit hazy.

 

Here you go

 

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/18195-john-wayne-box/

 

 

Ah, haha, answered on the next page. Oh well. 

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6 hours ago, Thor said:

Someone asked about the film earlier. While it's decent enough for what it is, I have some major ethical issues with it. More in this old FSM post here:

 

http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=20176&forumID=1&archive=1

 

(scroll down a bit).

 

As for this release, I'm actually completely satisfied with my old, reverse-channel release. But I'll probably check out the digital promo, just for curiousity's sake.

I'm with Thor, in that I have ethical issues with the film, the genre and the late John Wayne. My much older dad didn't though, and had me watch a number of cowboy films when I was little, including this one. While there are often decent attempts at revisionist westerns there's nothing in me that would have me watch one now. That said, I do have more positive memories of the BP playing the overture on the PBS broadcasts. I love that piece, I own the '94 release (which despite the better cover I will happily unload), and have pre-ordered the Matessino. Hoping to rekindle my interest in cues beyond the overture. Very Coplandesque, but just some of the most kinetic and colourful early JW, subject matter aside. And I love the '78 Smallville stuff too. I suppose deep down I love this kind of Americana. even as a Canuck, kind of hard not to if you love Williams.

I'm sure there's been a thread on this at some point, along the lines of "Williams scores you love but are meh to turned off by the subject matter." Not to mention why I don't do Amistad or Geisha but that's not for this forum.

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I'm not an expert of this score, even if I paid for the digital 1994 expansion... as long as I don't have a physical CD... it's not the same.

 

So, experts... with this new expansion... is it possible to recreate the programmes that where on the 1994 and Promo LP albums?

 

I know that all have been remixed on the new set, but in terms of tracks, does it look alike what we already have?

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2 minutes ago, Bespin said:

So, experts... with this new expansion... is it possible to recreate the programmes that where on the 1994 and Promo LP albums?

 

Yes

 

 

2 minutes ago, Bespin said:

I know that all have been remixed on the new set, but in terms of tracks, does it look alike what we already have?

 

There is nothing that was on either the old Varese CD or the 70s bootleg LP that is not on this new set (other than Sukman's TV show track)

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8 hours ago, Richard said:

That correct. It has not been rereleased since 1995.

 

I bought The Reivers and the Sony Blue Max (and The Cowboys) during the mid to late 90s. So yes, two decades ago.

 

 

18 hours ago, Not Mr. Big said:

I like the cover.  One big cowboy made of a bunch of smaller cowboys

 

It's Cowboys all the way down!

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Did it have an "adaptation" called The Cowgirls?

*Insert that Family guy clip of Williams scoring porn again*

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This is great! Ordered! Oddly enough, I had a premonition that an announcement about an expanded release of one of the Maestro’s scores would be revealed sometime today!

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8 hours ago, Jay said:

 

I don't think you read Mike's post and/or my earlier post carefully enough. The 90s Varese CD (which wasn't approved by Williams) has the TV show main title track by Sukman; this release (approved by Williams) does not.

 

Jay, you mention that JW didn't approve the 90s album. So how did they manage to release it? Or, in other words, why does JW have to/or why is he asked to approve these Matessino editions if they didn't care about his opinion in the 90s? What changed?

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5 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

Jay, you mention that JW didn't approve the 90s album. So how did they manage to release it? Or, in other words, why does JW have to/or why is he asked to approve these Matessino editions if they didn't care about his opinion in the 90s? What changed?

 

There is no contractual requirement that a composer signs off on specialty label releases.  The composers don't own the music - the studios do, and the specialty labels license the music from the studio.  The specialty labels get composer approval out of courtesy, so the composer will help them out in the future (and I'm sure a variety of other reasons as well).  Nowadays, most all catalog releases of scores by living composers are sent to the composer for approval.  Back in the 90s, most weren't.

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3 hours ago, Jay said:

There is nothing that was on either the old Varese CD or the 70s bootleg LP that is not on this new set (other than Sukman's TV show track)

 

Someone had mentioned something about clean starts/ends.

Are you sure this release will have them and will not have crossfades?

Because if we want them clean, maybe we should keep our old cds.

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5 hours ago, filmmusic said:

Someone had mentioned something about clean starts/ends.

Are you sure this release will have them and will not have crossfades?

Because if we want them clean, maybe we should keep our old cds.

 

 

There are only 6 tracks on the entire CD that contain multiple cues in one track.

 

10. Long Hair and The Roundup (2:26)

18. Entr’acte (2:25)

26. Drums of Manhood and The Execution (5:56)

29. End Title and End Cast (2:23)

35. End Title and End Cast (Alternate) (2:21)
36. Exit Music (1:13)

 

In track 10, "Long Hair" segues extremely nicely into "The Roundup".  It is how this music was always meant to be heard!  If you prefer "The Roundup" on its own, without "Long Hair" leading into it, you are welcome to hold on your 90s Varese CD where "The Roundup" is in its own track (titled "Wild Horses" there).  If you listen to that track on the old Varese CD right now, you'll probably notice that the clean opening is a bit "odd".  It truly was meant to be heard segued into from "Long Hair", and not on its own.

 

In track 18, "Entr'acte" is just the first 90 seconds of "Overture" seguing nicely into the "Entr'acte" cue.  This is, again, how Williams intended it to be heard.  If you want a clean opening of just the "Entr'acte" cue on its own, well, that's what track 32 is.

 

In track 26, "Drums of Manhood" has a quiet ending that leads nicely into "The Execution".  If you want a clean opening of just the "The Execution" cue on its own, well, that's what track 33 is.

 

In tracks 29 and 35, "End Title" finishes completely, and there is a pause before "End Cast" begins.  No overlap.

 

And track 36 is entirely an edit of pieces of existing cues you already heard on the CD ("The Kids And Crazy Alice" and "Overture").  Williams didn't actually write an Exit Music cue.

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9 hours ago, Jay said:

 

I don't think you read Mike's post and/or my earlier post carefully enough. The 90s Varese CD (which wasn't approved by Williams) has the TV show main title track by Sukman; this release (approved by Williams) does not.

 

Wow, I was not aware that the Sukman TV version of the theme had been released. So you're saying it was released in that John Wayne set (sadly, the link above doesn't work anymore)? It's obviously not on the Varese OST. I've never heard a single note or seen a single shot of that series in any shape or form.

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3 hours ago, Thor said:

Wow, I was not aware that the Sukman TV version of the theme had been released. So you're saying it was released in that John Wayne set (sadly, the link above doesn't work anymore)? It's obviously not on the Varese OST. I've never heard a single note or seen a single shot of that series in any shape or form.

 

Sukman's unused TV show theme is track #7 of the old Varese Cowboys CD ("Alternate Main Title").  No one said anything about the John Wayne box.  Not sure how you got mixed up about that.

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That's pretty amazing. I've had that CD for close to 20 years, and I had no idea that track was the Sukman TV version. There is nothing about it in the liner notes.

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2 minutes ago, Thor said:

That's pretty amazing. I've had that CD for close to 20 years, and I had no idea that track was the Sukman TV version. There is nothing about it in the liner notes.

 

That's because it was a mistake, an accident, a goof! :) The producers of that CD didn't know what it was either; they just ran across it and assumed it was an alternate main title for the film when it was in fact an unused (therefore even harder to identify) main title for the short-lived TV show. But I like the track so I'll be keeping my old flawed version even as I purchase this new complete and great-sounding one. BTW, Thor, you should buy this expansion too if you really care about composer-approved listening programs. ;)

 

Yavar

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3 hours ago, Jay said:

That's the entire point - nobody knew that information until Mike revealed it last night!  It's all in this thread if you just read it.

 

The thread is information overload. Sorry if I missed it while skimming, but thanks for clarifying.

 

The whole TV series should get its own soundtrack release!

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Jay - please stop telling people off for not reading every post of a huge thread, with a tone that implies that the information is incredibly obvious. it's getting tiresome.

 

People miss stuff now and again...

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41 minutes ago, Thor said:

The whole TV series should get its own soundtrack release!

 

That would be neat, based on this one Harry Sukman cue on the old The Cowboys album that I do like quite a bit. :)

 

I'm not sure how high it is on any label's priority list as the TV series was apparently very short lived...only 12 episodes according to IMDb. Interestingly a few of the boys from the film apparently reprised their roles in the series.

 

Another short-lived show from around the same time period I'd like a full soundtrack release for is Anna and the King, with at least three scores each by Jerry Goldsmith and Richard Shores. Varese released about a quarter hour total from Jerry's three scores for the series on their Goldsmith@Fox Box, but with only two cues from each of the non-pilot scores, it probably really isn't very representative of his work on the show, and I'd really be interested to hear the Shores scores, along with any other composers who may have worked on that 13 episode show. I confess I'm a major sucker for the Goldsmith Asian sound.

 

Yavar

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Oh!  One thing I forgot to mention, is that if you've never seen the film but want to, I STRONGLY suggest you watch it BEFORE reading the liner notes.  There's no way to discuss the music without discussing some plot points from the film, so if you want to see the film without prior knowledge of what will happen, I do recommend watching the film before reading :)

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8 hours ago, Jay said:

The fact is the Deluxe Edition is the first and only John Williams' approved version of The Cowboys. The 1994 release was done without his involvement, was incorrectly mixed, at the wrong speed with the wrong takes and made-up titles, with a track called "Overture" in the middle of the program and another track by a different composer erroneously added, making it actually a 28 minute album which, sorry to say, had basically nothing correct about it. But if someone is content with that, so be it.

 

Sounds a bit apocalyptic. Except for the most anal of listeners, most of the cues will play the same. It's not like they accidentally released a re-recording by the Hackensack high school orchestra.

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Sure it sounds updated (though i am also wary of those claims, as quite a few of these supposedly better-sounding releases of recent years just meant a treble up geared towards modern ears). But to claim the old release was an abomination: i haven't found that much of a difference. Compare:

 

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1 hour ago, publicist said:

Sounds a bit apocalyptic. Except for the most anal of listeners, most of the cues will play the same.

 

The 1994 release is plagued by an incorrect mix, so I wouldn't categorize such issue as being "anal". It's also a matter of evolving technology and being able to preserve all the recordings in the best quality possible, so I think these releases are very important in terms of archive and presentation for the posterity.

 

Of course nobody forces anyone to buy everything, so if you're already happy with the previous Cowboys release, there's nothing wrong about it :)

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21 minutes ago, TownerFan said:

The 1994 release is plagued by an incorrect mix, so I wouldn't categorize such issue as being "anal". It's also a matter of evolving technology and being able to preserve all the recordings in the best quality possible, so I think these releases are very important in terms of archive and presentation for the posterity.

 

Of course nobody forces anyone to buy everything, so if you're already happy with the previous Cowboys release, there's nothing wrong about it :)

 

It's not about me, it's about the wording which makes the old release sound like an atrocity which simply isn't true no matter how often one repeats 'incorrect mix'. 

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14 minutes ago, publicist said:

It's not about me, it's about the wording which makes the old release sound like an atrocity which simply isn't true no matter how often one repeats 'incorrect mix'. 

 

Mike is very thorough and careful to the tiniest detail when it comes to these things, so I can completely understand where he's coming from. He has a very high standard in terms of production and I'm sure that's why he got JW's total trust when it comes to these things. And personally, I cannot be more than cheerful he's in charge of producing these releases.

 

In all honesty, I never liked the original Varèse's The Cowboys release, mostly because of the awkward sound mix (all strings on the right, everything else on the left) and also the puzzling sequencing. While it was great to have it officially released for the first time, I ended up doing a personal edition mixing cues from the '94 CD with pieces from a rip of the bootleg LP. But I was hoping that finally someone would compile a definitive release and I'm happy Mike and Varèse have just done that.

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Pub, have you ever listened to the 90s Varese CD with headphones on? The strings being hard left is off-putting. 

 

Anyway, I'm not sure why you've decided to write multiple posts defending some old CD today when a nice new one is available for only 20 bucks. Everyone wins. 

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