john williams: code prototype (beta mix)

[Nick Parker 3,040]

John Williams has said time and time again that when he works on a melody, he tweaks it for weeks until he gets it the way he thinks it should go. Specifics, however, are slim (the closest I know is an interview he said that Luke's Theme was once on the high note for one beat instead of the two we know and love).

 

My question is: if you could have access to a few sketches of his that illustrate this refinement process (or have it played for you), the chrysalis  period if you will, which ones would it be?

 

To start, as one of his most tightly-constructed tunes, I would say Raiders March. It has such a strong rhythmic contour, and it keeps pushing forward and forward. Was that how it always was? Did he have more start and stops that he ironed out, more typical resolutions for the melody?

 

And I would also love to see Lincoln. He mentioned in an interview that with those melodies he had to keep stripping away because they were too complex. Did he have more of his usual deep harmonies before he simplified them to sound more authentic to the time,  were there ornamentations that he crossed out to make it less fancy?

 

Looking forward to your responses!

 

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

Well I think that Yoda's Theme required some molding. It needed to fit the character to be gentle, but still mentoring and very wise. So that comes to mind.

[Faleel 5,346]

Apparently "Take To Your Ships" had a slightly different main melody.

[Jurassic Shark 12,054]

Han Solo (and the Princess)

 

(which is a love theme, btw)

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

5 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Han Solo (and the Princess)

(which is a love theme, btw)

I wonder if that new arrangement featured anything preliminary.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Anything from Lincoln or AI.  Would also love to have witnessed him write the infamous choral bit from The Last Duel, the whole process from spotting to recording.

[King Mark 3,631]

Well, I have one example in mind

 

The part in E.T. alone (alternate) on the LaLaLand set  when the spaceship takes off. You can tell it felt half finished, and oddly bad by Williams standards. Almost like he recorded something he improvised. So he went and refined that part we can hear in the real score

 

There's also some unused music in The Force Awakens that sounds like a draft for Rose's Theme in TLJ

 

 

[karelm 2,912]

He is very self critical which implies his first impressions are not his final thought on something.  So no, Raiders march wasn't always that way.  We know this because he mentions that he gave Spielberg options and Spielberg said he liked part of some and part of the other.  The other theme became the bridge.  But don't forget that a composer with such sophisticated talent, experience, and technique as JW - any first draft is better than most composers final version.  He constantly revises old material too after finding fault in it.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I’ve always thought he surely changed the original shape of the second Indy theme to fit the structure of being a b section.  I’d love to hear how it sounded when originally presented as potential main theme.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

29 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

I’ve always thought he surely changed the original shape of the second Indy theme to fit the structure of being a b section.  I’d love to hear how it sounded when originally presented as potential main theme.

 

Good point, they're like siblings in their parallels with each other, I never considered that there would have been a point where he had to sculpt that.

32 minutes ago, karelm said:

He is very self critical which implies his first impressions are not his final thought on something.  So no, Raiders march wasn't always that way.  We know this because he mentions that he gave Spielberg options and Spielberg said he liked part of some and part of the other.  The other theme became the bridge.  But don't forget that a composer with such sophisticated talent, experience, and technique as JW - any first draft is better than most composers final version.  He constantly revises old material too after finding fault in it.

 

Uh, yes, thank you for outlining some of the  basic underlying motivation of this thread. So karelm, are there any specific pieces from Williams' oeuvre where you'd like to get the inside peek of that process?

3 hours ago, TGP said:

Anything from Lincoln or AI.  Would also love to have witnessed him write the infamous choral bit from The Last Duel, the whole process from spotting to recording.

 

Ooh, I didn't think of AI. What would be interesting for me to know was how much the tone evolved over his reiterations, if it evolved much at all.

[Arpy 4,145]

Perhaps something from A.I., would love to see how a cue like 'What is your wish?' was formulated, or maybe something quiet - there are a few passages in Revenge of the Sith that I would love to peek into Williams' creative process on.

[Loert 2,511]

I know he wrote a short melody for the JW fan club in Japan after vising them there. It's online somewhere (possibly in the Wayback Machine). I can't find it now but I remember when I saw it I thought it sounded much poorer than his famous themes like Indiana Jones, Star Wars, E.T. But then again, I am sure he dashed it off in a few minutes.

 

We also know that Williams made an important change to the Star Wars theme (i.e. "Luke's Theme") whilst driving his car... Previously he had conceptualized the main theme like this:

 

which sounds like this.

 

But during this particular trip he realized that it would sound much better with the high Bb notes shifted one beat to the right, like this:

 

This is all from an interview which I remember reading on jw-collection.de (I think) but for the life of me I can't find it anymore.

 

In some ways the real genius of people like Williams is not just the fact they can write clearly for a lot of instruments at once...but it is their ability to identify when a fragment of music "works" or not. The remarkable fact that people like Williams and Zimmer are known to work on a melody for a week is something which a lot of people gloss over. It takes a lot of patience to work on a theme (or themes) for such a length of time, especially if it's your profession and you compose ~8 or more hours a day. When I think of my own composing efforts I don't think I ever took longer than an hour in crafting a new theme, because I am too eager to get started on the full piece so that I can be done with it. But I think that the more experienced you get, the better ear you acquire for when a melody "works", and the more patient you become with utilizing your creative forces. The romantic vision of a composer sitting down and effortlessly producing a beautiful sounding piece is in the vast majority of cases untrue, and the composers who do work like that often don't end up sounding very good...

 

Anyway, to answer the question. I would probably want to see the 1941 March sketches. It's such a great sounding melody, and I especially love the way Williams weaves all the voices together. I wonder, to what extent this was "pre-planned" and to what extent it was "accidental".

[Faleel 5,346]

On 6/20/2018 at 2:59 PM, Fal said:

Apparently "Take To Your Ships" had a slightly different main melody.

This is how it sounded:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/76w45s5a83o5tz5/TaketoyourShipsMelody1.flac?dl=0
 

vs the final:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d82gt1affrsb1ja/TaketoyourShipsMelody2.flac?dl=0

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

14 minutes ago, Fal said:

This is how it sounded:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/76w45s5a83o5tz5/TaketoyourShipsMelody1.flac?dl=0
 

 

The Flintstones?

[Loert 2,511]

The Island theme from JP was initially quite different too:

 

https://picosong.com/w9YLe/

[Faleel 5,346]

3 minutes ago, Loert said:

The Island theme from JP was initially quite different too:

 

https://picosong.com/w9YLe/

Haha.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

15 minutes ago, Loert said:

The Island theme from JP was initially quite different too:

 

https://picosong.com/w9YLe/

A reference to Hammond's flea circus monologue.  Brilliant!

[mrbellamy 6,278]

"Rey's Theme" would be an interesting one to see how all of that came together. 

 

Born on the Fourth of July's full theme seems like something that would have taken some time to find.

 

I wonder what the earliest versions of "Hedwig's Theme" sounded like, since it's so chromatic. Maybe we'd hear certain notes that would be "readjusted" later.

 

A lot of the virtuosic solo stuff would be cool to see him work out. Like the sax solos in CMIYC, imagine that would be an interesting process since the idea is to make it sound improvised. How much of that was just him jamming out in his head or on piano and transcribing stuff, and how much was really refined on paper?

[Brundlefly 2,385]

On 6/21/2018 at 9:02 PM, Loert said:

We also know that Williams made an important change to the Star Wars theme (i.e. "Luke's Theme") whilst driving his car... Previously he had conceptualized the main theme like this:

 

which sounds like this.

 

But during this particular trip he realized that it would sound much better with the high Bb notes shifted one beat to the right, like this:

 

This is all from an interview which I remember reading on jw-collection.de (I think) but for the life of me I can't find it anymore.

This is what I always found so special about Luke's Theme. The high notes are not on beat one, but on beat two of each bar. I think this is one of the aspects that make this theme subconciously special for many listeners.

[Jurassic Shark 12,054]

On 6/21/2018 at 9:02 PM, Loert said:

The remarkable fact that people like Williams are known to work on a melody for a week is something which a lot of people gloss over. It takes a lot of patience to work on a theme (or themes) for such a length of time, especially if it's your profession and you compose ~8 or more hours a day.

 

I doubt that he composes nothing else during that week.