Jerry Goldsmith: Unpopular Opinions

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Maybe film scores just aren't as great as we thought they were while we were growing up.

[publicist 4,643]

Certainly true for ID4.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

With rare exceptions. ID4 and The Shadow being two of them.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

I actually don't have The Shadow. Is the Intrada set worthwhile?

 

[publicist 4,643]

It's the only option.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

I haven't seen much mention or praise for the score here, beyond a "love theme and villain theme are unmemorable" comment. 

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

I really fail to understand why you are disqualifying things for random different reasons, publicist. The First Knight and Lionheart love themes don't count I guess because they're "medieval"...Medicine Man doesn't count because it's Barry-influenced...The Shadow love theme doesn't count because its a "side theme"?? (It's given plenty of variation in the full score.) To me you're coming across as arbitrary and silly with this. What reason are you going to give to disqualify The Salamander? And what if I go back further to the great love themes in Masada, Star Trek: The Motion Picture, Contract on Cherry Street, Breakout, QB VII, Justine, The Blue Max, Seconds, and the "Chinese Love Theme" from The Sand Pebbles (just to name my favorites)? I can't wait for you to explain why all of those themes don't count either.

 

Hell, his very first film score had an amazing long-lined theme for the main character which was used GORGEOUSLY for a love scene early in the film:

 

His third film score, Face of a Fugitive, had a really beautiful love theme that was almost Golden Age in style. Or at least, it was a theme for the female love interest (similar to as was done for Lonely Are the Brave a few years later).

 

Oh yeah, and Jerry's first ever masterpiece to my knowledge (written for radio months before Black Patch) also had a gorgeous love theme for "the landlord's daughter" in The Highwayman:

 

Yavar

[Koray Savas 2,251]

3 hours ago, kaseykockroach said:

I haven't seen much mention or praise for the score here, beyond a "love theme and villain theme are unmemorable" comment. 

The Shadow is awesome. Entertaining flick too. 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

5 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

I really fail to understand why you are disqualifying things for random different reasons, publicist. The First Knight and Lionheart love themes don't count I guess because they're "medieval"...Medicine Man doesn't count because it's Barry-influenced...The Shadow love theme doesn't count because its a "side theme"?? (It's given plenty of variation in the full score.) To me you're coming across as arbitrary and silly with this. What reason are you going to give to disqualify The Salamander? And what if I go back further to the great love themes in Masada, Star Trek: The Motion Picture, Contract on Cherry Street, Breakout, QB VII, Justine, The Blue Max, Seconds, and the "Chinese Love Theme" from The Sand Pebbles (just to name my favorites)? I can't wait for you to explain why all of those themes don't count either.

 

Hell, his very first film score had an amazing long-lined theme for the main character which was used GORGEOUSLY for a love scene early in the film:

 

His third film score, Face of a Fugitive, had a really beautiful love theme that was almost Golden Age in style. Or at least, it was a theme for the female love interest (similar to as was done for Lonely Are the Brave a few years later).

 

Oh yeah, and Jerry's first ever masterpiece to my knowledge (written for radio months before Black Patch) also had a gorgeous love theme for "the landlord's daughter" in The Highwayman:

 

Yavar

 

I’m quite partial to “The Rock and His Lady.”

[JoeinAR 1,949]

20 hours ago, publicist said:

A stupid one.

Its spot on. You just cant handle the truth that JG was not at his peak and created a lazy and weak score ill fitted to a poor film.   "Im laughing at the superior intellect." feels like an appropriate quote here.

 

For another unpopular opinion I think Jerry's short theme to the Waltons (season 2) is better than any of his work save STTMP.

Jerry's beautiful slice of Americana.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

8 hours ago, kaseykockroach said:

I actually don't have The Shadow. Is the Intrada set worthwhile?

 

 

I bought two copies in case I break one.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

2 minutes ago, Margo Channing said:

 

I bought two copies in case I break one.

Or in case a buck-toothed cockroach with an insatiable desire for Bryce Dallas Howard wants one?

[publicist 4,643]

7 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

I really fail to understand why you are disqualifying things for random different reasons, publicist. The First Knight and Lionheart love themes don't count I guess because they're "medieval"...Medicine Man doesn't count because it's Barry-influenced...The Shadow love theme doesn't count because its a "side theme"?? (It's given plenty of variation in the full score.) To me you're coming across as arbitrary and silly with this. What reason are you going to give to disqualify The Salamander? And what if I go back further to the great love themes in Masada, Star Trek: The Motion Picture, Contract on Cherry Street, Breakout, QB VII, Justine, The Blue Max, Seconds, and the "Chinese Love Theme" from The Sand Pebbles (just to name my favorites)? I can't wait for you to explain why all of those themes don't count either.

 

It's not about 'counting', i said you list stuff that doesn't belong in a list of the many contemporary innocuous themes for women or romantic situations, period.

 

And no, i don't find The Shadow's love theme or The Salamander's much to crow about. They're kind of perfunctory, like all those themes for 'Not without My Daughter' or 'Love Field' or or or. Compare that to the spot-on theme he devised for something like 'The Edge' or even 'Papillon'. Here the themes fit the movie to a T, because Goldsmith must hav felt a much closer bond to the stories at hand.

 

I find it much more curious that anyone would consider love or 'soft' themes a great Goldsmith speciality. 

1 hour ago, JoeinAR said:

Its spot on. You just cant handle the truth that JG was not at his peak and created a lazy and weak score ill fitted to a poor film.   "Im laughing at the superior intellect." feels like an appropriate quote here.

 

And i'm not alone. It's the perfect example of a more subtle score where Trump-ian adjectives like 'lazy' and 'weak' are not cutting it, especially when you have cues like 'Repairs'.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

The "if it's not a masterpiece, it must be terrible" mentality in full swing once more.

[publicist 4,643]

Wrong thread?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Wait, if Joe thinks Nemesis is a "poor" film, then why would a "lazy and weak" score be "ill-fitted"?

[publicist 4,643]

You mess with powers far beyond your reach.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

It's like how someone ages ago was furious that Jurassic World: Fallen Kingdom looked like it'd be a terrible movie from the trailer, and thought a bad composer like Cappuccino shouldn't be scoring it. I was like "if it looks so bad, what does it matter if Mike is scoring it, since he's no good?"

[JoeinAR 1,949]

1 hour ago, Margo Channing said:

Wait, if Joe thinks Nemesis is a "poor" film, then why would a "lazy and weak" score be "ill-fitted"?

It is a poor film that is in itself a Patchwork of themes and storylines from better Star Trek films. The score quote so much from Star Trek the motion picture and uses that films Enterprise theme for a much different Enterprise that is ill-fitted for this film. does that help you understand my line of reasoning Jerry?

I've heard the weak reasoning that it's the Enterprise after all. It's not the same Enterprise there was a love for Kirk's Enterprise that doesn't exist for the enterprise-e the E by the way stands for ehh. Newer faster more powerful but not beloved like Kirk's

Here's your chance Jerry to be clever now to say you can be blase about some things Joe but not the Enterprise E, why the Enterprise E is over twice the size of the original Enterprise and far more luxurious to paraphrase the Titanic quote

[Naïve Old Fart 9,516]

I can't wait for the Hans Zimmer: Unpopular Opinions thread 

[Nick Parker 3,040]

10 minutes ago, JoeinAR said:

It is a poor film that is in itself a Patchwork of themes and storylines from better Star Trek films. The score quote so much from Star Trek the motion picture and uses that films Enterprise theme for a much different Enterprise that is ill-fitted for this film. does that help you understand my line of reasoning Jerry?

I've heard the weak reasoning that it's the Enterprise after all. It's not the same Enterprise there was a love for Kirk's Enterprise that doesn't exist for the enterprise-e the E by the way stands for ehh. Newer faster more powerful but not beloved like Kirk's

 

After just having discovered the complete score, I can confirm, with the help of state-level forensic analysts, that Nemesis is objectively NOT lazy or weak. It's probably one of the most surreal, out-there scores Jerry wrote in his later years, a fusion of his 70's rebel-badass approach and his later '90s era Hollywood smoothness, if you will. Fitting in with Star Trek's romantic, optimistic vision of the future? No, but a powerful score that brings an almost spiritual weight and dimension to what would otherwise be a bland, bad television two-parter.

 

 

[JoeinAR 1,949]

4 minutes ago, Nick Parker said:

 

After just having discovered the complete score, I can confirm, with the help of state-level forensic analysts, that Nemesis is objectively NOT lazy or weak. It's probably one of the most surreal, out-there scores Jerry wrote in his later years, a fusion of his 70's rebel-badass approach and his later '90s era Hollywood smoothness, if you will. Fitting in with Star Trek's romantic, optimistic vision of the future? No, but a powerful score that brings an almost spiritual weight and dimension to what would otherwise be a bland, bad television two-parter.

 

 

And thats why my opinion is unpopular in a thread called unpopular opinions. Though for me it is still the correct opinion what you call bad ass I call bad. And it is a terrible film but thats not Jerry's fault.

6 minutes ago, Richard said:

I can't wait for the Hans Zimmer: Unpopular Opinions thread 

I suggest TGP creste it. He is Zimmer's Annie Wilkes.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

1 minute ago, JoeinAR said:

And thats why my opinion is unpopular in a thread called unpopular opinions. Though for me it is still the correct opinion what you call bad ass I call bad. And it is a terrible film but thats not Jerry's fault.

 

But Joey, the analysts confirmed its status as good as an objective, flat fact. Reality doesn't care what you believe.

[publicist 4,643]

I think i only saw parts of that on tv. Star Trek movies - except Nicholas Meyer's - just don't interest me.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Are these analyst like the "TOP MEN" in Raiders

[Nick Parker 3,040]

6 minutes ago, JoeinAR said:

Are these analyst like the "TOP MEN" in Raiders

 

Different division. Those guys hide away things  that are not meant for the general public, like the majority of output from orchestral dandy boys such as Michael Giacchino and Brian Tyler.

[publicist 4,643]

@Yavar Moradi I just found the perfect score to illustrate Goldsmith's lack of flair for female sensitivities: 'Mulan'! Here you have a lame romantic theme for the girl - non-descript, gooey, irrelevant - and a killer masculine fanfare for her masquerading as a male warrior. It's virtually night and day (and a much more fitting example than, i. e. the tragic main title for 'Sand Pebbles' that is later re-approprioated as 'chinese' love theme, it's strength coming mainly from the fact that it's a 1966 version of the lonely Rambo theme).

[Nick Parker 3,040]

On the subject of the topic: I cannot get into Legend at all. It just sounds so bloated and "fluffy" to me. I know so many here love it, but even after trying to listen to it from those perspectives, no good fortune.

1 minute ago, publicist said:

@Yavar Moradi I just found the perfect score to illustrate Goldsmith's lack of flair for female sensitivities: 'Mulan'! Here you have a lame romantic theme for the girl - non-descript, gooey, irrelevant - and a killer masculine fanfare for her masquerading as a male 

 

Could you post links, if that's not too much of a burden? The only themes I know from Mulan is the one from "Hair" (if that's the right title), and the sliding trombones for Gengis Khan (if that's his theme).

[publicist 4,643]

Heroic theme (first appearance after 50 second mark):

 

Gooey non-descript girl theme (final 2 minutes of suite):

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

You need to be in the right mood for Legend. I first heard it at 19 when I was highly receptive to his music.

[publicist 4,643]

In 'Legend's case there is so much tonally different material to choose from, i. e. all the darker stuff leading up the the waltz and 'Darkness Fails' that there should be something for everyone. If i had to choose a selection i would say the main title (bloated?? fluffy?), the dress waltz and 'The Ring' are a wonderful summation of especially the enchanted impressionism with sweet and dark overtones - minus the ringle rangle stuff and the sugary parts of the first half.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I love all that sugary stuff in Legend. I guess I have a sweet tooth.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

I don't have any problems with any sweet stuff from Secret of NIMH or Legend (I don't think that the cozy parts of Legend are necessarily "sweet" or "fluffy", the tone is definitely less childish), but Baby has too many and too sugary parts.

 

Is it an unpopular opinion? - I absolutely adore Extreme Prejudice. It's maybe the score I grab most often out of my shelf, because it's so easy and so much fun to listen to. I simply love the mix of badass and tragic music.

 

I never really got into Powder. It seems to have no theme development and is technically relatively boring. I still like it.

 

Congo is probably my least favourite score of Jerry Goldsmith that I own so far.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

Sugary is a good word to describe my feelings on Legend,  better than fluffy. Some kid's cereal, like Froot Loops. I do think it's very well written, though.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

For many years it was my favorite Goldsmith score.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Rudy is boring

[Disco Stu 15,495]

5 minutes ago, Not Mr. Big said:

Rudy is boring

 

Blocked!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Rudy is better than Publicist makes it out to be. 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

3 minutes ago, Batman's Diet Coke said:

Rudy is better than Publicist makes it out to be. 

 

Undoubtedly.  It's my favorite of all of his sentimental scores.  Pub has no room for sentiment in his shriveled heart.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Yes he's an idiot.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Your words!  Not mine!

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

On 7/2/2018 at 1:03 PM, kaseykockroach said:

Okay, I confess.

Basic Instinct is a boring listen.

 

I got to admit all of Jerry's Verhoeven collaborations leave me a bit cold. I can admire them intellectually without connecting with them emotionally...but give me Basil's Verhoeven scores any day.

 

As for Publicist, I seriously have no clue where you're coming from, man.

 

Yavar

[publicist 4,643]

That you, of all people, fail to see the truth and wisdom of the Mulan example neither surprises nor disappoints me. Fans will be fans.

6 hours ago, Batman's Diet Coke said:

Rudy is better than Publicist makes it out to be. 

 

The one thing in 'Rudy' that's better is the Notre Dame football fanfare. The rest is OK but also depressingly obvious and Hollywood simplistic in its goals and effects. What Jerry was fighting for decades he now embraced. 

[Nick Parker 3,040]

2 hours ago, publicist said:

The one thing in 'Rudy' that's better is the Notre Dame football fanfare. The rest is OK but also depressingly obvious and Hollywood simplistic in its goals and effects. What Jerry was fighting for decades he now embraced. 

 

Of curiosity, do you think there's a different angle he could have taken that would been more effective, keeping in line with his more experimental approach that you allude to?

[Brundlefly 2,385]

2 hours ago, publicist said:

The one thing in 'Rudy' that's better is the Notre Dame football fanfare. The rest is OK but also depressingly obvious and Hollywood simplistic in its goals and effects. What Jerry was fighting for decades he now embraced. 

I like Rudy. It is pleasant to listen to it, especially when you need to calm down and relax, but I understand what you mean. Many Goldsmith scores of the 90s have become much more simplistic regarding the interpretation of the movie.

[publicist 4,643]

38 minutes ago, Nick Parker said:

Of curiosity, do you think there's a different angle he could have taken that would been more effective, keeping in line with his more experimental approach that you allude to?

 

Yes. Not talking about experimental, of course, but he was writing more direct, less syrupy americana music in the 60's and 70's, eschewing the clichés of that fulsome sweet string/woodwind combination - Goldsmith sounds not markedly different from standard JNH, Horner or Shaiman here (The American President!). It's really not the themes, those were basically all cut from the same cloth in Goldsmith's case, but how they were set orchestrationally.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

5 hours ago, publicist said:

direct, less syrupy americana music in the 60's and 70's, eschewing the clichés of that fulsome sweet string/woodwind combination -

 

I'm not very familiar with those: are you talking about stuff like Patton?

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Hoosiers kicks Rudy's ass

[publicist 4,643]

35 minutes ago, Nick Parker said:

I'm not very familiar with those: are you talking about stuff like Patton?

 

A Patch of Blue

Lilies of the Field

Hour of the Gun

The Ballad of Cable Hogue

Wild Rovers

The Homecoming: A Christmas Story

The Other

The Red Pony

A Tree Grows in Brooklyn 

....

up to Raggedy Man contain Goldsmith's gentler and less cliched americana examples.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

I've never listened to any of those, thanks for the list!