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Wich score do you like better:The Book Thief of Schindler's List?


King Mark

Book Thief vs Schindler's List  

52 members have voted

  1. 1. Book Thief vs Schindler's List

    • Book Thief
      7
    • Schindler's List
      45


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The Book Thief is one of the dullest movies Williams has scored and that's kind of reflected in the music.  Very emotionally muted and lacking in color.  I imagine that Williams signed on to the film with a very different picture of how the film would be (more emotionally extroverted and cinematic)

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5 minutes ago, Not Mr. Big said:

The Book Thief is one of the dullest movies Williams has scored and that's kind of reflected in the music.  Very emotionally muted and lacking in color.  I imagine that Williams signed on to the film with a very different picture of how the film would be (more emotionally extroverted and cinematic)

 

You can make the argument that Memoirs of a Geisha as a film has some problems, but it's very rich and stimulating with its rhythms and visual representations of its themes. In that sense Williams' love for the book paid off in taking on the assignment. 

 

The Book Thief is a very colorful book that presents the subject matter in an engaging way...the movie...bad gamble this time around for Williams. 

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9 hours ago, publicist said:

God forbid someone demands more from a game-changing picture about the Holocaust than the most obvious sentimental approach in a thick jewish idiom with Perlman serenading on top. It's OscarTM Williams in full force and on this occasion, i wish Spielberg would have opted for a more ballsy collaborator. But alas...and does it really matter now?...we have the weepy 'masterpiece' for a maximum playcount on Classic FM (which is exactly where it belongs).

 

Of course TGP liked this.  It's both of you at your absolute worst.

 

EDIT: I should think before I type.... :( Apologies for the disrespect

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9 hours ago, publicist said:

God forbid someone demands more from a game-changing picture about the Holocaust than the most obvious sentimental approach in a thick jewish idiom with Perlman serenading on top. It's OscarTM Williams in full force and on this occasion, i wish Spielberg would have opted for a more ballsy collaborator. But alas...and does it really matter now?...we have the weepy 'masterpiece' for a maximum playcount on Classic FM (which is exactly where it belongs).

 

I agree.  Don't think such opinions should be met with such childish incredulity.  Is this JWFan or JWFanatics?

 

1 minute ago, Disco Stu said:

 

Of course TGP liked this.  It's both of you at your absolute worst.

 

Wow.  Like that.  That's just not really necessary dude.  The ugliest part of this place, aside from the now nearly extinct Zimmer snobbery, is the crass dismissal that opinions like this get.  

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8 minutes ago, TGP said:

Wow.  Like that.  That's just not really necessary dude. 

 

I'm sorry about that comment, I am actually.  But it's a piece of music that actually has elicited genuine emotion from millions of people so it must be treated as inferior, that's what I see in that post.  I'm not saying everything popular is good.

 

Also, writing the music in a Jewish idiom is obvious because it's the CORRECT choice for the film.

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1 minute ago, Disco Stu said:

But it's a piece of music that actually has elicited genuine emotion from millions of people so everyone else must react the same way or lie about it, that's what I see in that post.

 

See how that works?

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5 minutes ago, TGP said:

 

See how that works?

 

I didn't judge his not liking the score.  I judged his sneering dismissal of the audience that does.

 

Quote

we have the weepy 'masterpiece' for a maximum playcount on Classic FM (which is exactly where it belongs).

 

Using the perceived audience for a piece of art to dismiss the art itself is beneath contempt.

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It's hard for me to refute the core of their feelings: I understand and tend to enjoy music that's "harder edged"(critics of Schindler's List tend to cite Auschwitz-Birkenau as an exception to the tripe), and the score has all of the red flags: sentimental violin playing broad melodies, etc.. But in the case of Schindler's List, the approach works very well for me, and I'm very affected by the pungent bittersweet harmonies and voicings...people like to diss Schindler's List for not being "tragic" enough (see I believe Terry Gilliam), but film and music both take a perspective that I consider more challenging in such a profound dark mark in human history, which is that even in the most trying of times there exists genuine compassion and human dignity to meet and combat such evil. 

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It's the instinct to leap from "I don't like this" to "Everyone that does like this doesn't have my refined aesthetic appreciation, let the masses have their comforting opiates that I am above" that bothers me and always has. It's like a faux-Oscar Wilde decadence or something.  Give me a break.

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5 minutes ago, Nick Parker said:

 

Can you elaborate on this? It's a phrase I'm still not familiar with.

 

I actually edited it out because I wasn't sure it communicated what I wanted.  It's a reference to something Marie-Antoinette probably didn't actually say before being executed that showed her being dismissive and out-of-touch with the peasantry, not really understanding the revolution.  Again, not what I was really trying to communicate so I changed it.

 

Basically, I don't like when someone thinks they have to use how they think other people like something to show why something shouldn't be liked.  Does that make sense?

 

Anyway, I'd like to pull back from the hostility I regrettably started this line of the thread with and discuss it like adults.

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My problem with the score is almost exclusively the theme.   I think the film is actually rather well done and largely avoids Hollywood sap, and the score would as well if not for the tearjerker theme.  It lays it on too thick for me and there's something about a virtuoso refined violin performance that seems not at all suited to the proceedings.  Try as he might to be rustic or folky Perlman is still Perlman.  I often wonder how a more raw and simple approach would have worked.  Gorecki's treatment of the subject in his 3rd symphony seems like it would have been a far more fitting and striking model than JW's chosen Mahlerism. 

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38 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

I actually edited it out because I wasn't sure it communicated what I wanted.  It's a reference to something Marie-Antoinette probably didn't actually say before being executed that showed her being dismissive and out-of-touch with the peasantry, not really understanding the revolution.  Again, not what I was really trying to communicate so I changed it.

 

Ah, but is the general sentiment as you describe in your edited post? That kind of attitude always raises my hackles.

17 minutes ago, TGP said:

My problem with the score is almost exclusively the theme.   I think the film is actually rather well done and largely avoids Hollywood sap, and the score would as well if not for the tearjerker theme.  It lays it on too thick for me and there's something about a virtuoso refined violin performance that seems not at all suited to the proceedings.  Try as he might to be rustic or folky Perlman is still Perlman.  I often wonder how a more raw and simple approach would have worked.  Gorecki's treatment of the subject in his 3rd symphony seems like it would have been a far more fitting and striking model than JW's chosen Mahlerism. 

 

Truth be told, I barely think of the theme when I think of the score, it's my least favorite part (though I love the countermelodies and supporting elements). It gets a really cool variation in the track that I posted the previous page, by far my favorite presentation of the theme.

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29 minutes ago, TGP said:

My problem with the score is almost exclusively the theme.   I think the film is actually rather well done and largely avoids Hollywood sap, and the score would as well if not for the tearjerker theme.  It lays it on too thick for me and there's something about a virtuoso refined violin performance that seems not at all suited to the proceedings.  Try as he might to be rustic or folky Perlman is still Perlman.  I often wonder how a more raw and simple approach would have worked.  Gorecki's treatment of the subject in his 3rd symphony seems like it would have been a far more fitting and striking model than JW's chosen Mahlerism. 

 

 

I think of Schindler's List as consciously made for future generations.  It is invaluable in using this drama to educate going forward the scope and incredible sadness of humanity at its worst while also giving a sense of hope, that there will always also be an essential goodness to be found and not always where it would be expected.  It is an admirable piece of art, or else it wouldn't be effective in this role, but that's also why it was not afraid to be very unsubtle when it needed to be.  There are moments of incredible subtlety and observation to be found in the film, but Williams (and Spieley) knows when to aim for the cheap seats and make sure he is communicating as clearly and evocatively as possible.

 

It's maybe why people don't tend to revisit the film after seeing it once.  It's not just that it's depressing, but that it's so effective at what it's trying to do you feel like you've gotten the message.  It's not aiming to be this layered piece of literature to be seen again and again, discovering new aspects.

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32 minutes ago, KK said:

I think some here tend to exaggerate the supposed "loss" from the lack of some Penderickian/Ligeti-esque, avant-garde approach to the score.

 

To be clear, this is not at all what I, at least, would suggest as a way to "improve" things in my view.  Gorecki's 3rd is as far removed from the 20th century avant garde as you could get.  It's like hearing honest, plaintive folk strains from a distance across misty hills.  The setting of Biblical and Polish texts along with the carved inscription from a Gestapo prison is utterly devastating for me, and how I would personally feel the subject should be broached musically.  Clearly the problem is Spielberg's "they're all dead" comment.  They weren't!

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Ultimately it comes down to Spielberg's aesthetic predilections, namely his love of old Hollywood.  This either appeals or it doesn't.  I can see someone thinking it's appropriate for something like Indiana Jones but not Schindler.  I disagree, but I can see the argument.

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58 minutes ago, TGP said:

 

To be clear, this is not at all what I, at least, would suggest as a way to "improve" things in my view.  Gorecki's 3rd is as far removed from the 20th century avant garde as you could get.  It's like hearing honest, plaintive folk strains from a distance across misty hills.  The setting of Biblical and Polish texts along with the carved inscription from a Gestapo prison is utterly devastating for me, and how I would personally feel the subject should be broached musically.  Clearly the problem is Spielberg's "they're all dead" comment.  They weren't!

 

Yes nice words and speculation to the subject... like the composers you mentioned and admired...but the most important would have been lost... heart and soul... just academic bullshit. Been there, seen it. 

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2 hours ago, TGP said:

 

To be clear, this is not at all what I, at least, would suggest as a way to "improve" things in my view.  Gorecki's 3rd is as far removed from the 20th century avant garde as you could get.  It's like hearing honest, plaintive folk strains from a distance across misty hills.  The setting of Biblical and Polish texts along with the carved inscription from a Gestapo prison is utterly devastating for me, and how I would personally feel the subject should be broached musically.  Clearly the problem is Spielberg's "they're all dead" comment.  They weren't!

 

Agreed. I'm only now seeing you're Gorecki comment above. This would have been a lovely approach, though not something I can picture Spielberg going for.

 

This has always been one of my favourite parts of the score:

 

Would have been interesting to have heard expand more on source material like that.

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14 hours ago, TGP said:

My problem with the score is almost exclusively the theme.   I think the film is actually rather well done and largely avoids Hollywood sap, and the score would as well if not for the tearjerker theme.  It lays it on too thick for me and there's something about a virtuoso refined violin performance that seems not at all suited to the proceedings.  Try as he might to be rustic or folky Perlman is still Perlman.  I often wonder how a more raw and simple approach would have worked.  Gorecki's treatment of the subject in his 3rd symphony seems like it would have been a far more fitting and striking model than JW's chosen Mahlerism. 

 

Although I love the score of Schindler's List, I have heard similar complaints about the main theme from several people, and I appreciate that you are making an example of a possible alternative and beautiful approach (Gorecki's 3rd). However, do you really feel the theme is so much a "tearjerker"? Considering the subject to which it is associated, I think any intelligent approach to the music would produce a similar effect to those who connect with the story (and both Williams' and Gorecki's works are intelligent settings, in their own ways).

 

Gorecki's work sets to music some Polish texts, including one written in a Gestapo cell: of course it is very touching and appropriate, but to appreciate this added value you either need to speak Polish, or to know the story of the text. So, if the film had been scored, say, with Gorecki's third symphony, I am not sure that many people would have received the intended message while seeing the movie, a message that you get, instead, if you go to a concert or you listen to a recording and read the notes. Williams' approach relied more on the power of a beautiful melody (ok, partially borrowed from a theme by Mahler, but he made his own thing out of it) and as a result, in my opinion, he could communicate in a more universal way. 

 

Also, the violin part in John Williams' theme is not that virtuosistic, there are just a few embellishments within a rather slow and contemplative piece. Maybe the main theme has suffered from overexposure during the last 25 years, and when something is played too much, in all possible occasions, it can start to be perceived as cliché. But this does not diminish its value as a piece of music.

 

 

 

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I have a friend who thinks the world is a pretty crappy place. Child abuse, torture, war, terrorism, greed, starvation and such are all proof to him that humans are a deplorable race, destroying the planet at every turn. It is not always fun to talk to my friend about life. 

 

Because I believe the world is foremost a beautiful place. I think of all the various kinds of animals, mountains, the ocean, good hearted people, art, architecture, and it instills so much joy in me. 

 

My friend and I don’t always agree on the state of the planet and mankind. Is any of us right? Yes: we are BOTH right. It is truly a matter of perspection.

 

I’m just very happy with my more positive and optimistic view on things, because to be honest: my friend’s way of thinking is pretty depressive.

 

When it comes to Schindler’s List -both film and score- guys like publicist or TGP are not wrong. They just look at it from a more bleak and apathetic perspective. 

 

I tend to look at the film -and especially the score- from a much more positive angle and I see beauty, profundity and inspiration. I think it’s been a great succes story for both Spielberg and Williams, a defining moment in both their careers. Call me a fanboy, naive, a dreamer, I really don’t care.

 

I think I’m better off this way.

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22 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

Of course TGP liked this.  It's both of you at your absolute worst.

 

Why include yourself out? (if we're at witty banter again) You have trodded out your own worst pig-headed strategies of dismissal, though i really don't care - i take the burden of unnecessarily posting my still-standing opinions in a thread where it was clear as a bell what would happen, and it boringly did.

 

 

21 hours ago, KK said:

I think there's an incredible sensitivity to Williams' more romantic approach. Schindler's List was always about one success story in the middle of one of mankind's darkest chapters. And Williams wrote a fittingly restrained elegy around it. A film like this presents a very fine line for a composer to walk on, and only a craftsman of Williams' caliber could do it with as much finesse as was delivered. It may not be his most academic work, but it is one of immense feeling and that's the whole point anyway.

 

See, i'm just not hearing it. I do in the movie, where the more ambiguous parts play a greater role but the way it was conceived, to rely on two themes (of which the Remembrances is indeed the better one) orchestrated like this, it just annoys me to no end in its squareness and (to counter the expected black/white brutal avantgarde vs. formal neo-romantics angle) i would have settled for something like Kilar's orchestral piece that was used in the trailer. Simple, but effective without being so cloyingly sentimental.

1 hour ago, Stefancos said:

Same for Ready Player One, it has a happy ending that doesnt change the world, but Spielberg does end it saying we should try to not be online so much and spend some time in the real world. Another rather life-affirming, positive message.

 

The BFG, about a small girl who meets an old giant who's being bullied by other giants and wants to help him stand up for himself.

 

I like these kinda stories. And it's the kinda thing Spielberg and Williams are drawn too.

 

Though that's a much broader discussion than about the musical aesthetics of SL, i liked the BFG and the happy ending of RPO was the least of its problems. Note, though, that both are far removed from the kind of true story like SL, The Post or BOS, where this sentiment often feels a bit shoehorned in.

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These are just some examples that came to mind.  But you are someone who seems repulsed by what you consider "sentimentality" in various forms or art, deeming it false or shallow. At least that's my perception of you over the years.

 

No offence of personal attack intended, btw.

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The superb craftsmanship of the score and movie should not be denied, even if one believes a radically different philosophical approach should have been taken. 

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8 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

 

These are just some examples that came to mind.  But you are someone who seems repulsed by what you consider "sentimentality" in various forms or art, deeming it false or shallow. At least that's my perception of you over the years.

 

No offence of personal attack intended, btw.

 

None taken. And i always have applauded well-made, appropriate sentimentality (say in a movie like 'Cocoon') which certainly does not include recent Spielberg. 

 

Though i think there's greater pathos in things unsaid, or only hinted at, not something laid on with a trowel and i think if you have this kind of more sophisticated 'kitsch', it is much more rewarding and elevates a movie (or score) immensely, though i worked as a writer many years before on tv and web comedy formats and fully understand how elusive a great line or idea can be. Still, i do not share Spielberg's love for dressing up old MGM sentimentality in modern gloss and present it then as, what exactly? (War Horse)

5 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

I don't think Spielberg could have made Schindlers List any other way, so I cannot blame his philosophical approach.

 

I think the movie is maybe not absolutely beyond reproach, but pretty damn remarkable (for what could have been). 

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For me, the sentimentality in Schindler's List is, in its way, appropriate.  The story is about primarily about human decency and regret in the face of atrocity, and presents the director's personal worldview, after all.

War Horse is very well made, too.  But the sentimentality is indeed more shallow here.  Spielberg was trying to be somewhat "retro" here, I think.  I applaud the effort, and understand why some may not.

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3 minutes ago, Steve McQueen said:

For me, the sentimentality in Schindler's List is, in its way, appropriate.  The story is about primarily about human decency and regret in the face of atrocity, and presents the director's personal worldview, after all.

War Horse is very well made, too.  But the sentimentality is indeed more shallow here.  Spielberg was trying to be somewhat "retro" here, I think.  I applaud the effort, and understand why some may not.

 

There isn't that much in Schindler. It's really only the last 15 minutes.

 

I have no respect for stuff like War Horse - it's a waste of time and resources for what? That people have another cloying sunday afternoon movie that acts as if it were from a different era? It's watchable etc. but it makes absolutely no sense in context of its WW1 setting.

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5 hours ago, Sandor said:

When it comes to Schindler’s List -both film and score- guys like publicist or TGP are not wrong. They just look at it from a more bleak and apathetic perspective. 

 

4 hours ago, Stefancos said:

But people like Pub or TGP (and many many others) prefer more cynical, gritty, "real" stuff, and thats' fine

 

Laudable open mindedness but nothing about my very minor gripes with the score - I have none with the film, note - have to do with bleakness, apathy, cynicism, or grit.  Realism, of an emotional sort, for me specifically, perhaps. 

 

10 hours ago, Score said:

However, do you really feel the theme is so much a "tearjerker"?

 

Of course any decent music on the subject will elicit emotion.  My point is that this theme feels too consciously intended to do so.  Manipulative is the cliched but accurate description in my judgement. 

 

10 hours ago, Score said:

Also, the violin part in John Williams' theme is not that virtuosistic, there are just a few embellishments within a rather slow and contemplative piece. 

 

Virtuosic to me does not merely encompass flashy technical passages, it's an overall refinement of playing which here feels impossibly removed from the film I think. Similarly, I didn't say that the Gorecki itself should have been spliced in, nor that a text indecipherable to non Poles should have been used, but simply that the musical approach would have been more interesting for me.    

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2 hours ago, publicist said:

I have no respect for stuff like War Horse - it's a waste of time and resources for what? That people have another cloying sunday afternoon movie that acts as if it were from a different era? It's watchable etc. but it makes absolutely no sense in context of its WW1 setting.

 

Does it have to?

 

What would make sense? Why do you say it's from a different era?

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