crumbs 14,300 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 Not sure if there was already a thread like this but it came to me after listening to the Last Crusade soundtrack in chronological order this week. One track has always stood out to me from that score as particularly baffling, not just because it was almost entirely omitted in the final film but it's just so ... irritating? The constant, annoying dry brass passages. The mickey mousing. The total disregard for serious tone. It certainly isn't helped by the godawful muddy recording that pervades the entire score but I think Williams really dropped the ball with this particular cue. It's always struck me as the wrong choice for its intended scene. Which is fine, it happens. Who knows how Spielberg spotted the scene? Maybe he asked for this? The use of the Father's Theme at the end is probably one of the few things I really like about the original version but it was 100% the correct decision to replace it with a noble version of the Raiders Theme in the final cut. I'm not entirely sure how the final film version was assembled (I'm assuming Williams wrote an alternate for the latter half of the cue but it seems the opening of Elsa's Betrayal was tracked into the final film?) but it's vastly superior to the original version IMO. Here's the final film followed by a leaked bootleg of the revised cue. So what are some of Williams' film cues that, in your opinion, he got completely wrong? They don't necessarily need to be cues that were ultimately revised (such as Binary Sunset), tracked over (such as Luke's Rescue) or dialed out (such as Goat Bait), but even cues that made it through to the final cut that were either unnecessary or wrong for the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jurassic Shark 12,024 Posted September 23, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted September 23, 2018 I love the Keeping Up with the Joneses theme! Marcus, Josh500 and Ricard 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 I would have to see the cue in it's proper place in the film to really make any kind of judgement. But I probably don't agree with you. 9 minutes ago, crumbs said: The mickey mousing. The total disregard for serious tone. The scene it was intended for really isnt very serious, so I'm not sure what your argument is. Also, what mickey mousing? Locrius and Ricard 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,499 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 I do kind of agree with Keeping Up with the Joneses, it's a mess. The part of the Luke-Vader duel in Empire with the semi-triumphant Yoda's Theme while Vader's taunting Luke with "Only your hatred can destroy me!". It may be OK on the soundtrack, but completely wrong for the tone of the scene, or the whole movie. Similar Empire cues with jarring tonal inconsistency are Luke's Rescue, Imperial Probe and some Dumb Yoda cues, all thankfully removed. The original Lonely First Night from HP1, something seems so... off about it. crumbs and Chen G. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,300 Posted September 23, 2018 Author Share Posted September 23, 2018 17 minutes ago, Stefancos said: I would have to see the cue in it's proper place in the film to really make any kind of judgement. But I probably don't agree with you. That would probably help, yes. I can't find any videos of the original cue over the top of the final film but it would probably help reiterate my point. The cue overall is like something out of a cartoon. Replacing it with the Scherzo motif was an inspired choice and, thematically, makes more sense than the goofy music Williams wrote originally. Note Williams used the same motif in Marcus is Captured which was similarly removed entirely from the final cut -- so it's fair to assume Spielberg wasn't a big fan of this musical approach either. While the Scherzo motif is definitely tongue-in-cheek, it's much less overtly goofy in tone than his original idea. The film itself is comedic enough without the music saying the same thing, so they wisely toned it down. The mickey-mousing is the fact the entire original cue just feels like a track moving from one comedic sync point to another, with little flow. But more than that, I just find the cue bloody irritating! It's an instant skip every time it comes up on my iPod and really disruptive to the flow of an otherwise fantastic score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 I do agree that it feels a bit out of place somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,300 Posted September 23, 2018 Author Share Posted September 23, 2018 17 minutes ago, Holko said: The part of the Luke-Vader duel in Empire with the semi-triumphant Yoda's Theme while Vader's taunting Luke with "Only your hatred can destroy me!". It may be OK on the soundtrack, but completely wrong for the tone of the scene, or the whole movie. Yes! This is a really good example. A great musical moment by itself but absolutely out of place for the intended scene. Wisely dialed out, along with a lot of other unnecessary cues in Empire. Your Potter example is a good one too. I'm not a scholar on those scores but that's a very strange musical choice by Williams. Clearly it was revised or dropped? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,499 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 6 minutes ago, crumbs said: Your Potter example is a good one too. I'm not a scholar on those scores but that's a very strange musical choice by Williams. Clearly it was revised or dropped? We have an alternate of it with not much difference, in the movie it was tracked over with a part of Leaving Hogwarts. It's supposed to be the first sweeping shot of Hogwarts in daylight with Harry and Ron late for class. The texture is more unnerving than sweeping, perhaps it sounded better in Williams' head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 It seems you mostly judge album/bootleg cues without having heard it meld properly into the movie scenes. I gather that most of this stuff wouldn't be overly noticeable if it were the only version used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 Just now, publicist said: It seems you mostly judge album/bootleg cues without having heard it meld properly into the movie scenes. I gather that most of this stuff wouldn't be overly noticeable if it were the only version used. That's a good argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,943 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 1 hour ago, crumbs said: The cue overall is like something out of a cartoon. Okay, but isn't Indiana Jones basically a cartoon with live action painted on top? Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,300 Posted September 23, 2018 Author Share Posted September 23, 2018 28 minutes ago, Chen G. said: Okay, but isn't Indiana Jones basically a cartoon with live action painted on top? Old TV serials were the inspiration more than cartoons. For me the original cue veers too far into the realm of goofy comedy whereas the revised version correctly adjusts its tone to be less overt. Chen G. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smaug The Iron 510 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 Keeping Up with the Joneses is probebly my favorite cue from the last crusade so I disagree. I also find this https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5HTK7044_SNY3BUOGRlV2JGbkE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,499 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 That's horrible! 1:02 onwards takes any shred of tension away and the back-and-forth starting at 1:27 is a mess. I don't know if it's the recording or the specific instrument, but the sound of the held brass at 0:00, 0:27, 1:28 and 1:39 annoys me in the same way as the TFA recording of March of the Resistance. crumbs 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,300 Posted September 23, 2018 Author Share Posted September 23, 2018 Interesting, I drew that exact same parallel!! I can't stand the way the brass sounds in either track, whether it's the dry recording or the mix, it just sounds horrible and 'noisy' to my ears. There's something about that opening 20 seconds of brass that makes me want to skip the entire track; ear-piercingly irritating and a far cry from the warmth of the rich brass in Raiders or the LSO Star Wars scores (even TLJ, so this isn't just an LSO vs LA snob thing). Holko 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 I disagree with @Holko's Lonely First Night assessment. I think the tracking of Leaving Hogwarts is a better fit, but as @publicist said, none of these examples would register if they were the only versions. We can only guess that Williams may have been scoring to an edit of the film not yet finalized. In the case of Lonely First Night, the cue ends with a regal statement of the Hogwarts castle theme implying it would've gone over a shot of the exterior of the castle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,499 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 And that "regal" statement is what I have a problem with, I started the linked video there: it sounds somehow off to me instead of regal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,300 Posted September 23, 2018 Author Share Posted September 23, 2018 It does sound a little off to my ears BUT I understand what Williams was going for. It sounds a bit like a "wake up Hogwarts, time to go to class" or something. It definitely sounds like a school anthem or something. And seeing KUWTJ over the final film just reinforces my opinion. It works for the first 40 seconds or so (up until the local's car is stolen) but the rest is horribly out of place IMO. The lack of music is very effective in the final cut. crlbrg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 2,833 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 Banning Back Home has always sounded off to me, both in the film and on its own. Jurassic Shark and MrScratch 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Bespin 8,475 Posted September 23, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted September 23, 2018 Every John Williams cue are right, it's movie scenes which are sometimes wrong. 🙄 crumbs, SteveMc, crlbrg and 2 others 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taikomochi 1,136 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 Banning Back Home sucks, but it's what the scene called for, silly early-90's bullshit. 1977 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,300 Posted September 23, 2018 Author Share Posted September 23, 2018 It has to have been inspired by the temp, surely. It's such an unusual piece in his oeuvre, maybe barring stuff in Heartbeeps or Spacecamp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,024 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 You're not very good with tags, crumbs. crumbs 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Illustrious Jerry 3,356 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 Williams? Wrong? How dare thou use those words in the same sentence. Seriously though, it's neat to see Williams criticism on JW Fan so keep it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,300 Posted September 23, 2018 Author Share Posted September 23, 2018 JWFan: Fair & Balanced Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,475 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 1 minute ago, crumbs said: JWFan: Fair & Balanced Still waiting to discover the Chosen One who will bring balance to JWFan! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 7 hours ago, crumbs said: Oh man, that video brings back some memories. That channel belongs to an old friend of mine who I taught to edit and compose music back in the day. I actually made that shitty cover art myself in Photoshop. Good times... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Illustrious Jerry 3,356 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 On 9/23/2018 at 12:06 PM, Bespin said: Still waiting to discover the Chosen One who will bring balance to JWFan! A neutral, kind, fair and just member of JW Fan bringing peace and unity to the board? Ha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,024 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 You called? The Illustrious Jerry 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,475 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 The balance will be hard to obtain, and it's without speaking of those two norwegian Sith! crumbs and Jurassic Shark 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 2 hours ago, Taikomochi said: Banning Back Home sucks, but it's what the scene called for, silly early-90's bullshit. Blame Dave Grusin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,903 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 6 hours ago, Chen G. said: Okay, but isn't Indiana Jones basically a cartoon with live action painted on top? You mean in the way it ushered in a new PG-13 rating? https://www.businessinsider.com/indiana-jones-and-the-temple-of-doom-created-pg-13-rating-2014-4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Illustrious Jerry 3,356 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said: You called? I was going to say that but humility held my tongue. Keyboard rather, not tongue. 59 minutes ago, Bespin said: The balance will be hard to obtain, and it's without speaking of those two norwegian Sith! There's been an awakening. Have you felt it? Bespin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,024 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 1 minute ago, The Illustrious Jerry said: I was going to say that but humility held my tongue. Keyboard rather, not tongue. You can be the chosen one too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Illustrious Jerry 3,356 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 Have I been chosen to be the chosen one? I haven't heard of it. The most I've got was "Hey Jerry, are you Drax's third personality?". Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,024 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, The Illustrious Jerry said: Have I been chosen to be the chosen one? I haven't heard of it. The most I've got was "Hey Jerry, are you Drax's third personality?". I think it's a long time since he passed his third personality! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Illustrious Jerry 3,356 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 Then how can I be called the chosen one? I am however the heck many profiles in line for the throne! Have mercy on me and my memes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasey Kockroach 2,343 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 This is a very dangerous thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Illustrious Jerry 3,356 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 Turn away we must or forever will it dominate our destiny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Kasey Kockroach 2,343 Posted September 23, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted September 23, 2018 The action music in The Force Awakens/The Last Jedi is so weak and limp that Giacchino would be flattered at the imitation. Chen G., Bayesian and Fabulin 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Illustrious Jerry 3,356 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 Leave Mike out of this! Kasey Kockroach 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc 2,674 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 4 hours ago, Alex said: Banning Back Home has always sounded off to me, both in the film and on its own. I like that track! Jazzy, fun, completely out of place! Early 90s Velveeta indeed! 1977 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,493 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 Agreed. It's my favourite track in the film, and the best piece of music Dave Grusin never composed. crumbs 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 You know, there's no right or wrong here. It's all subjective, a matter of taste, in your head. And yeah, I absolutely love "Keeping up with the Joneses"! I remember 15 years or so ago, listening to this piece over and over again on my Nokia mobile phone... 😂 Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 58 minutes ago, Steve McQueen said: I like that track! Jazzy, fun, completely out of place! Early 90s Velveeta indeed! This! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Score 770 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 Premise: I really cannot stand the movie Hook. Easily my least-favourite among all of Spielberg's movies. Most of the score is fantastic, but I find a few choices to be dreadful: surely all the songs, as well as "Banning Back Home". My problem with the latter is not that it is jazzy, but just the fact that it is out of place with respect to the symphonic poem / ballet style of the rest of the score. Then, I find the final battle sequence to be really over-scored. I feel a huge mismatch between the epicness that the music is trying to convey, and the childish stuff that I see on screen at that point. It's better to listen to that without the movie. I also have a problem with the Short Round theme (and all the instances when it appears) from Temple of Doom. And with Aunt Marge's Waltz (the only low point in a masterpiece score). I cannot think of much else at the moment, but I'm sure I could if I were more familiar with the complete Indiana Jones scores! MrScratch and 1977 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,024 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, Score said: Most of the score is fantastic, but I find a few choices to be dreadful: surely all the songs, as well as "Banning Back Home". Indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loert 2,510 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 "We Don't Wanna Grow Up" truly is dreadful. It should have been called "I Think I'm Gonna Throw Up". Aunt Marge's Waltz isn't that great either, it's a bit too "wink-wink-nudge-nudge" for my tastes. 13 minutes ago, Score said: I cannot think of much else at the moment, but I'm sure I could if I were more familiar with the complete Indiana Jones scores! Score and crumbs 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasey Kockroach 2,343 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Josh500 said: You know, there's no right or wrong here. It's all subjective, a matter of taste, in your head. This is the wimpiest post I've ever read on this forum. crumbs 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Illustrious Jerry 3,356 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Josh500 said: You know, there's no right or wrong here. It's all subjective, a matter of taste, in your head. You truly are a funny man Josh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now