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A woman's place: feminists take up the fight against new Trans identity legislation

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1 hour ago, Wojism said:

So don't worry about how other people brand you. Worry about how you feel and see yourself. 

Young man says "Your are what you eat; eat well".

Old man says "You are what you wear; wear well".

You know what you are, you don't give a damn...

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Being simplistic over being gay or trans isnt easy. It can get you beaten or killed, it can get you humiliated kicked out of your home, denied a home, fired from you job, excommunicated from your church. The pluses exist too.

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5 minutes ago, JoeinAR said:

Being simplistic over being gay or trans isnt easy. It can get you beaten or killed, it can get you humiliated kicked out of your home, denied a home, fired from you job, excommunicated from your church. The pluses exist too.

 

Also, you will burn in hell for all eternity!

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5 minutes ago, JoeinAR said:

Being simplistic over being gay or trans isnt easy. It can get you beaten or killed, it can get you humiliated kicked out of your home, denied a home, fired from you job, excommunicated from your church. The pluses exist too.

 

Ok man, I legitimately don't know what line you drew between my silly generalizing statement about how to tell if you like people with penises and the history of hateful prejudice against gay people.  I am horrified by all of what you reference here of course.

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2 hours ago, Stefancos said:

In most athletics sports there's a division between male and female, so there are male world record holders and female ones. Your argument really doesnt old water.

 

You completely missed my point.

 

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

But that's the thing: we don't want 50/50 representation: it isn't something that we should strive for at all. We want individual equality of opportunity.

 

That is the point I was striving for. :)

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8 hours ago, Richard said:

Young man says "Your are what you eat; eat well".

Old man says "You are what you wear; wear well".

You know what you are, you don't give a damn...

 

Bursting your belt that is your homemade shell... 

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In your hypothetical rebuttal, are you claiming that the limits to men's ability to behave decently are similarly lower than women's? I'm not aware of any evidence of that. In fact, if a person were somehow literally unable to behave legally in certain situations...well, we probably would be more likely to put them in psychiatric care.

 

Men are genetically predisposed to greater risk taking. Which lands men in either the upper eschelons of society or the dead bottom as criminals and the suicidal. 

 

On average men can’t work any harder at not taking risks than women can work harder at building muscle mass. Not without chemical castration for men and steroids for women. 

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2 hours ago, Blumenkohl said:

Men are genetically predisposed to greater risk taking. Which lands men in either the upper eschelons of society or the dead bottom as criminals and the suicidal. 

 

On average men can’t work any harder at not taking risks than women can work harder at building muscle mass. Not without chemical castration for men and steroids for women. 

 

If I'm right about free will not existing (or even being a coherent concept), I suppose I couldn't really disagree with that. Testosterone produces behavioral differences simply by following the laws of physics, contributing to whatever inevitable choices a person's neurons collectively make. A criminal could no more choose to follow the law than I could choose not to type these words right now. It's all neurotransmitters and action potentials. Not much room for free will in that.

 

But the thing is, I've never been able to imagine a healthy society that embraces this likely reality. The ramifications for the criminal justice system alone would be staggering. I'm sure many people would take this knowledge as a license to do whatever they wanted, since clearly, they couldn't be blamed for their actions. It would be a disaster.

 

So instead we toil under the comforting, intuitive, prosocial assumption that we are capable of making choices other than the ones we actually make. Under that framework, a Y chromosome is no excuse for bad behavior. Sure, a guy might have to work harder at avoiding certain behaviors, but he's expected to put in that work and make good choices. After all, there would be no hard limits to how well he could behave - not in the sense that there are fairly hard limits to his athletic performance. No human can deadlift a 400,000 lb weight, but any human can lead a crime-free life.

 

Again, I would argue that none of that's true...but I'd also argue that society has nothing to gain and everything to lose when it comes to embracing the reality of the situation.

 

Sorry, that took a turn for the weird. 

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1 hour ago, Datameister said:

 

If I'm right about free will not existing (or even being a coherent concept), I suppose I couldn't really disagree  that. Testosterone produces behavioral differences simply by following the laws of physics, contributing to whatever inevitable choices a person's neurons collectively make. A criminal could no more choose to follow the law than I could choose not to type these words right now. It's all neurotransmitters and action potentials. Not much room for free will in that.

You can choose a ready guide, in some celestial voice. If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. You can choose from phantom fears, and kindness that can kill. I will choose a path that's clear; I will choose freewill.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Stefancos said:

This testosterone sounds tasty! Where can I buy it?

I'm selling, but do you really want to know how to buy..? :)

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22 hours ago, Norma's Corpse said:

Why is there so much prejudice against tranned folk? What did they ever do to you?

Ask pres., the man you so desire to suckle from his breast or other part

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On 11/2/2018 at 11:37 AM, Datameister said:

 

If I'm right about free will not existing (or even being a coherent concept), I suppose I couldn't really disagree with that. Testosterone produces behavioral differences simply by following the laws of physics, contributing to whatever inevitable choices a person's neurons collectively make. A criminal could no more choose to follow the law than I could choose not to type these words right now. It's all neurotransmitters and action potentials. Not much room for free will in that.

 

But the thing is, I've never been able to imagine a healthy society that embraces this likely reality. The ramifications for the criminal justice system alone would be staggering. I'm sure many people would take this knowledge as a license to do whatever they wanted, since clearly, they couldn't be blamed for their actions. It would be a disaster.

 

So instead we toil under the comforting, intuitive, prosocial assumption that we are capable of making choices other than the ones we actually make. Under that framework, a Y chromosome is no excuse for bad behavior. Sure, a guy might have to work harder at avoiding certain behaviors, but he's expected to put in that work and make good choices. After all, there would be no hard limits to how well he could behave - not in the sense that there are fairly hard limits to his athletic performance. No human can deadlift a 400,000 lb weight, but any human can lead a crime-free life.

 

Again, I would argue that none of that's true...but I'd also argue that society has nothing to gain and everything to lose when it comes to embracing the reality of the situation.

 

Sorry, that took a turn for the weird. 

 

Don't be so absolutist/reductionist. Being more likely to behave a certain way doesn't preclude free will.

 

Men may be genetically predisposed to take greater risks on average. That may be a near-absolute. But how they choose to take that risk is in part quite up to them. Some choose to become composers, some take up extreme sports, some become firemen, others become assassins and others join gangs. Their circumstances still play a role, but they still get a choice.

 

You can't go looking for eggs and flour in a baked cake. You are an inseparable product of the choices you have the free will to make and the ones made for you. 

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16 minutes ago, Blumenkohl said:

 

Don't be so absolutist/reductionist. Being more likely to behave a certain way doesn't preclude free will.

 

Men may be genetically predisposed to take greater risks on average. That may be a near-absolute. But how they choose to take that risk is in part quite up to them. Some choose to become composers, some take up extreme sports, some become firemen, others become assassins and others join gangs. Their circumstances still play a role, but they still get a choice.

 

You can't go looking for eggs and flour in a baked cake. You are an inseparable product of the choices you have the free will to make and the ones made for you. 

 

I'm dragging us into a whole different conversation here, so I should probably throw in the towel or start a new thread, but I just find this stuff so damn interesting.

 

I don't see any evidence for the existence of free will (at least the type I'm talking about) in what you've written. To be clear, I of course know that we make choices. Our brains are constantly making decisions, with varying degrees of conscious awareness. I'm simply asserting that a specific person's brain, in a specific state of activity, in a specific body, in specific external circumstances - we're talking down to the subatomic level - probably* can't make any decision other than the one it actually makes. The brain may be an absurdly complex system, but as far as we know, all its activity is still governed by the same physical laws that govern everything else in this universe.

 

* I say "probably" because I don't know whether the random, non-deterministic weirdness that happens at quantum scales has any macroscopic effect on the choices a brain makes. But even if that were a huge factor in our behaviors, randomness doesn't sound at all like free will. The type of free will I'm talking about would be action that is neither deterministic nor random, nor any combination of the two. I'm not sure how that's even a coherent concept.

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There's a whole bunch of 'em, in Blighty:

Stoptober (to give up smoking), Movember (to grow a moustache) Decembeard (to grow a beard -  presumably to go with the moustache) and Dry January (to give up alcohol).

They're thinking of introducing No Jerk-off July. Good luck with that...

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2 hours ago, DigitalfreakNYC said:

Man....I gotta say as someone with very close ties to the trans community, this thread disgusts me.  Massively.

 

I'll be very happy to stay in my NYC bubble.

 

Just a bunch of backward, flyover country types who descend into moral panic whenever they're exposed to anyone who might be a bit different.

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On 11/4/2018 at 1:18 PM, Datameister said:

 

I'm dragging us into a whole different conversation here, so I should probably throw in the towel or start a new thread, but I just find this stuff so damn interesting.

 

I don't see any evidence for the existence of free will (at least the type I'm talking about) in what you've written. To be clear, I of course know that we make choices. Our brains are constantly making decisions, with varying degrees of conscious awareness. I'm simply asserting that a specific person's brain, in a specific state of activity, in a specific body, in specific external circumstances - we're talking down to the subatomic level - probably* can't make any decision other than the one it actually makes. The brain may be an absurdly complex system, but as far as we know, all its activity is still governed by the same physical laws that govern everything else in this universe.

 

* I say "probably" because I don't know whether the random, non-deterministic weirdness that happens at quantum scales has any macroscopic effect on the choices a brain makes. But even if that were a huge factor in our behaviors, randomness doesn't sound at all like free will. The type of free will I'm talking about would be action that is neither deterministic nor random, nor any combination of the two. I'm not sure how that's even a coherent concept.

 

So let me ask you a question. Why do you like John Williams' music? 

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2 hours ago, Blumenkohl said:

 

So let me ask you a question. Why do you like John Williams' music? 

 

I don't have any truly confident, comprehensive answer. His music obviously lights up some parts of my brain that feel good, and I can point to certain tendencies in his writing that seem to correlate to those good feelings. I also suspect that positive associations with early childhood experiences play a role in it, too - some parts of my musical brain seem to have been formed around Williams' style, to the point where listening to his stuff almost feels like a key fitting snugly into a lock. But ultimately, I couldn't tell you why I'm so deeply moved by his music, or by any music for that matter.

 

This question is a twist I wasn't expecting...I look forward to seeing where your argument takes us next. Why do you ask?

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