Jay 37,363 Posted July 27, 2019 Author Share Posted July 27, 2019 9 hours ago, Chewy said: I Could Have Done More (Film Version) sounds really compressed like a bad MP3 file. Hmmm, I don't remember it sounding "really" compressed, but I haven't listened too closely in a while. Of course it's unfortunate this wasn't the usual top-to-bottom job where the original tapes and pulled and transferred and everything is built from that, but I don't think the element they did use sounds as terrible as some people here say it does. Of course, we're in the territory of opinion and everyone's ears being different now; there's no disputing that it has different sound than the 1993 album master nor that if it had been pulled from the original element it would end up sounding better. 5 hours ago, bollemanneke said: Wait, is it possible to create a truly complete score using both LLL and sessions? That other online place seemed to disagree... Of course it is possible. The same takes of the SCORE cues used in the film were either on the OST all along or now appear on disc 2. If you're referring to SOURCE music, there MIGHT be some of the Williams-recorded stuff where the exact take heard in the film wasn't in the session leak (I can't recall), but as for the source music heard in the film that Williams didn't record, all those recordings tracked into the film were already on some commercial release somewhere (which would be how Spielberg heard them to begin with to know he wanted to put them in his film) 3 hours ago, crumbs said: Aren't those things on other releases though? Yes. Both recordings used in the film had already been released on other film's soundtrack CDs beforehand. bollemanneke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewy 2,391 Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 8 minutes ago, Jay said: Hmmm, I don't remember it sounding "really" compressed, but I haven't listened too closely in a while. Yeah it's only the first part of the track (from 0:00 to 2:20) that sounds really bad to my ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,075 Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 Perhaps JW wanted it to sound like it was recorded during the war. Smeltington and Arpy 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewy 2,391 Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 52 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: Perhaps JW wanted it to sound like it was recorded during the war. Another useless comment, and it's not even funny, damn! bollemanneke, Smeltington and crumbs 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,526 Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 What did you expect? bollemanneke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,075 Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 I definitely could have done more! Smeltington 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Illustrious Jerry 3,356 Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 Insert facepalm gif here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,075 Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 Smeltington 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amer 2,108 Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 You know all this flack over disc 2 has prevented me from opening my 2cd set. I've lost my nerve... (sigh) bollemanneke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewy 2,391 Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 24 minutes ago, Amer said: You know all this flack over disc 2 has prevented me from opening my 2cd set. I've lost my nerve... (sigh) Some tracks aren't affected at all and it's still very nice to have additional music! The release is just not 100% perfect like other MM works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rough cut 1,714 Posted July 28, 2019 Share Posted July 28, 2019 Yes, I’d also say lossy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post crumbs 14,315 Posted July 28, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted July 28, 2019 I usually trust my ears over spectograms when it comes to audio quality, but a cursory glance at the spectograms for this score are interesting. Firstly, just to establish that the LLL is pretty much identical to the existing OST: OST (MP3 compressed): LLL Disc 1: As an aside, it's interesting how much more information is present in all 4 takes of the recording session version of this cue. A result of the mastering done in 1993? So obviously this line at 16hz appears disconcerting, but I believe this is just the ambient noise from the recording venue (please correct me if I'm wrong). This appears consistently throughout the soundtrack to varying degrees on all tracks bar OYF’N Pripetshok, Yeroushalaim Chel Zahav and Remembrances. Without checking, I'm guessing those cues were recorded elsewhere, hence not having the 16hz line. Point is, that's been there since 1993. I don't think a scan of the analogue masters would change it because it's probably baked into the recording itself. It would appear that all 3 sources originated from the same digital master though. Where things get concerning are on disc 2. The comments regarding I Could Have Done More (Film Version) are not unfounded. This is the OST track of Williams' original cue: And this is the LLL film version: Now, it doesn't take an audio engineer to see that something is clearly wrong here. It's even more alarming when you compare it to the recording sessions version of the same cue, which are dripping with orchestral detail and sharpness: This would explain why the first half of the track on disc 2 sounds so compressed; a huge amount of audio information has been clipped off. Fortunately, the insert itself is unaffected, so theoretically one could edit a corrected version themselves by combining the two tracks, if they so desired. Obviously doesn't explain how this happened in the first place -- perhaps some liberal use of noise reduction that accidentally got applied to the (already mastered) OST material? Another weird anomaly is Reflections having all frequencies clipped above 16hz, similar to those clipped OST segments on the Azkaban set: Reflections, recording sessions: The Perlman Family seems to have a similar issue, but it's not too dissimilar from the sessions version, so likely just a result of the source material: FWIW, Schindler's Workforce (Film Version), Theme For Recorder and Remembrances (Alternate) all have flawless spectograms, brimming with detail. I'm particularly impressed by Schindler's Workforce (Film Version) which is thoroughly detailed, especially for the long stretches of quieter material (which are lacking in atmospheric/room detail in tracks like The Perlman Family, above): Jay, Chewy, Gruesome Son of a Bitch and 4 others 4 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted July 28, 2019 Share Posted July 28, 2019 Nice analysis. La La Land...you're fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted July 28, 2019 Share Posted July 28, 2019 Jay: "sounds perfect!" Chewy and Gruesome Son of a Bitch 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,363 Posted July 28, 2019 Author Share Posted July 28, 2019 I never said it sounds perfect, I said it sounds fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brundlefly 2,385 Posted July 28, 2019 Share Posted July 28, 2019 I bet, sometime after Williams' death there will be a new release of that prestigeous score, inlcuding all the source music and completely remastered from the original session elements with consistent mixing - and everyone here will buy it again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewy 2,391 Posted July 28, 2019 Share Posted July 28, 2019 13 minutes ago, Brundlefly said: I bet, sometime after Williams' death there will be a new release of that prestigeous score, inlcuding all the source music and completely remastered from the original session elements with consistent mixing - and everyone here will buy it again! I'm OK with this one then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,526 Posted July 28, 2019 Share Posted July 28, 2019 35 minutes ago, Brundlefly said: and everyone here will buy it again! You bet your ass we will! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rough cut 1,714 Posted July 28, 2019 Share Posted July 28, 2019 D’oh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,075 Posted July 28, 2019 Share Posted July 28, 2019 2 hours ago, Brundlefly said: I bet, sometime after Williams' death there will be a new release of that prestigeous score, inlcuding all the source music and completely remastered from the original session elements with consistent mixing - and everyone here will buy it again! Not if we didn't buy it the first time around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted July 28, 2019 Share Posted July 28, 2019 Those spectrograms almost have a 3D effect to them if you stare at them long enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 I think I stared too long. I see spectrograms everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 It's like The Matrix! maybe we're all spectrograms? And JWFan is the illusion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,075 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 The moderators certainly are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,688 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 On 4/24/2019 at 2:57 PM, Jay said: Schindler's List was recorded onto analog tape that is perfectly vaulted at Universal with no issues. Those original tapes were not pulled to assemble this release; they've probably been sitting in the same place since 1993. I am sure some day in the future they will be pulled and a fresh and modern high res transfer will be made from those tapes, and a new definitive release will be created from that transfer, but that wasn't possible to do for this release. I am sure LLL would have funded a transfer of those tapes, and MM would have built two CDs full of music from scratch using it if it were possible, but Williams wanted the OST on disc 1, and MM had to fight to get any kind of bonus tracks release at all, so Mike and I went through the possible alternate/film version cues to present to JW to potentially release on a second disc, and when he heard what Mike put together, he thankfully agreed. If he hadn't, this would have been a single-disc straight OST reissue (with a new booklet). Very late to this party, but it's curious that in this particular instance, Williams took persuasion to include anything more than the OST, where generally all of the other JW/MM expansions have been restored from tapes. It's like being back in Indy box territory again. Is JW just really protective of this score and its presentation, moreso than other scores? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 He seems to be. Not surprisingly perhaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 This and Saving Private Ryan, two Spielberg films that dealt with the war. Not sure whether to pick this up, not at least until it has a proper expansion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,363 Posted July 29, 2019 Author Share Posted July 29, 2019 1 hour ago, Richard Penna said: Is JW just really protective of this score and its presentation, moreso than other scores? Apparently so, yea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,315 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 It's understandable. Last year I questioned how the entire score (including source music and a remaster of the OST, re-assembled from fresh scans of the master tapes) could fit on two discs -- but the writing was on the wall after what happened with SPR. In hindsight, Schindler's List was never going to be a "bells and whistles" expansion. We already know from Spielberg's home video releases of the film that he's never been comfortable including the standard "bonus" content for this film, despite the (apparent) plethora of deleted scenes and behind-the-scenes footage that exists. It would've been really nice to get fresh scans of the master tapes though -- many of these audio issues may have been avoided. How can the Schindler's List masters (dated from 1993) be in mint condition yet The Lost World multi-track masters (dated 1997) were shedding years ago -- and it was just luck that 1/4 inch stereo masters were salvageable for Mike to scan? The only conclusion I can reach is that Williams wasn't interested in hearing this score with enhanced sound and perfect clarity; like with SPR, he was happy with the sonic quality of the previous release and didn't want the orchestrations any more detailed. I have to admit, even a cursory listen to the recording sessions brings out some unexpected details in the orchestra, certainly moreso than audible in the OST mastering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bollemanneke 3,348 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 But the new SPR presentation is just ridiculous. I'm prepared to understand SL, but SPR, sorry. Repeating a redundant track and concluding with two bonus cues? At least conclude with the hymn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,075 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 Bonuses are usually at the end of the album. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rough cut 1,714 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 On 7/27/2019 at 7:36 PM, Jay said: Of course, we're in the territory of opinion and everyone's ears being different now; there's no disputing that it has different sound than the 1993 album master nor that if it had been pulled from the original element it would end up sounding better. I’d think that some people who listen directly through their laptop (or earphones such as in-ear) would also have a problem hearing a difference. 2 hours ago, crumbs said: The only conclusion I can reach is that Williams wasn't interested in hearing this score with enhanced sound and perfect clarity I am guessing that JW was told that this was of standard CD release quality. Or why even mention about the quality at? No reason really to expect anything less than standard quality. He might not even have heard the CD; he might’ve just signed off on the cues. Or if he heard it - since it doesn’t really affect the whole release, the difference would be hard to catch if you’re not looking for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,315 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 It's also a huge shame that the score is still locked into a "low resolution" audio format, by modern standards. I would've thought all of Mike's JW expansions (bar SPR) have been scanned and remastered at high resolution, meaning they are safely preserved for future audio formats. The entire score will require a ground-up remaster from the master tapes if there are any releases beyond the humble compact disc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rick 1,157 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 Perhaps SL & SPR are the way they are due to the huge undertaking of the Harry Potter box set? I'm sure MM spent a lot of time getting that set put together so perhaps there wasn't as much time left in the day to come out with uber releases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewy 2,391 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 Isn't the LLL SPR complete anyway? What more should we expect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rough cut 1,714 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 Hymn To The Fallen (Tiësto Remix) Chewy and MikeH 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bollemanneke 3,348 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 32 minutes ago, Chewy said: Isn't the LLL SPR complete anyway? What more should we expect? C&C, no OST. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,075 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 But it is complete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jay 37,363 Posted July 29, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted July 29, 2019 If you pop the physical disc into a physical player, you hear the OST followed by bonus tracks. If you import the contents of the disc into your digital music player of choice, you can hear a C&C presentation by merely dropping 2 tracks and changing the order of what remains around in your playlist... and still be able to hear the OST whenever you want, too. I never would have thought anybody would complain about this, but here we are. The Illustrious Jerry, Chewy and Holko 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smeltington 1,440 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 6 hours ago, Arpy said: Not sure whether to pick this up, not at least until it has a proper expansion. Let's wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rick 1,157 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bollemanneke 3,348 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 But there's little point in owning a physical disc if you have to rip it first to make it listenable. Smeltington 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smeltington 1,440 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 QFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! bollemanneke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,075 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 4 minutes ago, bollemanneke said: But there's little point in owning a physical disc if you have to rip it first to make it listenable. It's perfectly listenable. Just press play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 I truly despise buying music in a physical format. I resent that one of my main musical interests is hamstrung into offering only physical by industry legal mumbo jumbo. bollemanneke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 Thought it was a bunch of mumbo jumbo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 It's true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 Drop dead. I'm sorry. I meant drop dead, compact disc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 You were supposed to say, "All of it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,075 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 I love physical formats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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