Harry Potter 7CD Collection - MUSIC discussion

[crumbs 14,304]

Any other Azkaban requests?

[TSMefford 1,509]

3 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Any other Azkaban requests?

 

As far as score restorations? Could be cool to hear "Map to Snow Scene" instead of "Up The Stairs" idk how exactly that would be done, but it'd be cool.

[crumbs 14,304]

Yeah the alternates are most interesting. I'll do Shrieking Shack first.

[TSMefford 1,509]

Hey everyone! I dug up some old info about the trailer music for Prisoner of Azkaban!

 

Here's a quote from the old old old Magic Box Music website. Magic Box Music is now one with Brand X Music. At the time, I believe this was just composers John Sponsler and Tom Gire. Here, specifically, they are referring to the Double Trouble teaser:

Quote

We were starting to feel like Potter was old hat by this point, until we heard that a John Williams “song” would be included in the trailer. After many attempts, the studio decided that John would score the trailer, but it would include an intro written by Magic Box, and re-recorded by John Williams as part of the trailer. So wait…. John Williams was going to be conducting and recording a piece that we had composed? Crazy! To top it all off, we were able to attend the session and watch him do it. A signed copy of the score hangs in our studio to this day. We went on to score several International spots for this film, one of which garnered a nomination for “Best Music” at the Golden Trailer Awards.

 

And the attached photo:

 

Now here's a curious thing. They also have some quotes for Chamber of Secrets and Philosopher's Stone:

Quote

On Philosopher's Stone:

“You’ll be doing the trailers for the biggest franchise in Warner Brothers History, and by the way, here’s a recording of John Williams’ new theme that you have to use”. Two days later when our DAT machine ate the master tape of this recording we thought our career was over. As it turned out, this would be the first of a continuing saga of trailers that would keep us busy for the next 7 years and counting.

 

On Chamber of Secrets:

Lots of firsts for us. Our first trailer for a sequel. The first time we heard “This one has to be bigger and better”. The first time we wrote music for a flying car. Our proudest moment came when John Williams approved our version of his theme for release in the trailer.

 

I'm curious as to what capacity these guys were involved on the trailers for HP1 and 2. @Jay since this isn't score related I'd imagine you don't have as much insight on this. But if you do happen to have some, I'm interested.

[Arpy 4,145]

19 minutes ago, TSMefford said:

I'm curious as to what capacity these guys were involved on HP1 and 2

The trailer music? Isn't that what they said? 

 

I can't imagine them being involved in anything to do with the score proper.

[TSMefford 1,509]

2 minutes ago, Arpy said:

The trailer music? Isn't that what they said? 

 

I can't imagine them being involved in anything to do with the score proper.

 

Well yes, that's what I meant. I'll fix my post. I am curious as to how involved they were with the trailer music. Considering we have Trailer music for both films on the new LLL set. Just curious what they had a hand in exactly.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

God, Prisoner of Azkaban is so much better than the other two scores! Why is it so much greater, more interesting and more touching? I don't know... well, actually I do know - its authenticity, versatility, complexity and atmosphere is unmatched, even if the first two scores pool their forces!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I prefer the first one.

[Arpy 4,145]

I love Azkaban out of all three, but I think it's the least linear score of the three in terms of listening experience. With Philosopher's Stone I feel that's a much more straightforward narrative to follow whereas Azkaban I find myself darting from one end of the score to the other kind of listening to tracks from all over the place. Perhaps it's just how closely each score flows and follows the films narrative - which is always one of the problems when listening to film scores removed from their context.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

6 hours ago, crumbs said:

Any other Azkaban requests?

 

Aunt Marge alternate please! I had a quick go trying to sync it up but haven’t had time to do it properly and edit out the sections of both versions that aren’t in the film.

 

I’ve always thought that the first part of the final version doesn’t quite gel with the dramatic/dark imagery of the lights flickering and Harry’s face when he stares at Marge. I couldn’t believe it when I heard the alternate, I have a feeling it will bridge the emotions of the scene nicely.

[TSMefford 1,509]

3 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:

 

Aunt Marge alternate please! I had a quick go trying to sync it up but haven’t had time to do it properly and edit out the sections of both versions that aren’t in the film.

 

I’ve always thought that the first part of the final version doesn’t quite gel with the dramatic/dark imagery of the lights flickering and Harry’s face when he stares at Marge. I couldn’t believe it when I heard the alternate, I have a feeling it will bridge the emotions of the scene nicely.

 

I felt the final version worked great. I actually do have a clip of the Aunt Marge Alternate I have been working on. I might share it when it's done. 

[Jay 37,312]

The music at the end of the Reading The Map track is of course "Reveal Your Secrets", which we already knew existed based on the sheet music leak.  I'm glad it was recorded because it sounds cool, and gives the track a better ending.

 

I haven't watched your video but I imagine it's not hard to line up with the final film footage.

 

 

 

 

 

As for those trailer house people, remember that there were lots of trailers made for all three films, plus commercials, that appeared in different countries and regions, etc.

 

The LLL debut of the HP1 teaser and trailer cues are certainly only what Williams recorded.  If any trailers were released that blended JW's recording with trailer house stuff that wasn't a factor in this box set at all.

 

For HP2 Ross only recorded those 3 commercials cues, no trailer cues, and again the set debuts them straight from the HP2 sessions, no trailer house alterations.

 

For HP3, Mike just just had what WB gave him and he put them on the set.  It's the final edit and mix as used in the 2 main US trailers. I have no idea if there is trailer house involvement in the first 27 seconds of the teaser or if that is how JW recorded it, but from there to the end it sounds to that that is certainly just JW.  The final trailer track is certainly nothing JW had any involvement in.

 

 

 

 

 

 

For anyone trying to make Aunt Marge score restore videos, remember that there are 2 short cues in that track BEFORE the alternate Marge intro starts.

 

0:00:0:09 = That's A Lie

0:09-0:18 = Marge Points The Finger

0:18-0:45 Aunt Marge New Intro

0:45-end = Aunt Marge's Waltz (partial)

 

Marge Points The Finger would overlap with the main waltz cue as intended to be used in the film; They are separated from each other on the set but you've have to overlap them to make a video

[TSMefford 1,509]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

As for those trailer house people, remember that there were lots of trailers made for all three films, plus commercials, that appeared in different countries and regions, etc.

 

The LLL debut of the HP1 teaser and trailer cues are certainly only what Williams recorded.  If any trailers were released that blended JW's recording with trailer house stuff that wasn't a factor in this box set at all.

 

For HP2 Ross only recorded those 3 commercials cues, no trailer cues, and again the set debuts them straight from the HP2 sessions, no trailer house alterations.

 

For HP3, Mike just just had what WB gave him and he put them on the set.  It's the final edit and mix as used in the 2 main US trailers. I have no idea if there is trailer house involvement in the first 27 seconds of the teaser or if that is how JW recorded it, but from there to the end it sounds to that that is certainly just JW.  The final trailer track is certainly nothing JW had any involvement in.

 

Thanks for the insight Jay! I had assumed, given the importance of the HP1 and HP2 trailer material, it would have been John Williams only. Just wanted to make sure given other trailer house stuff was included.

[Datameister 2,037]

3 hours ago, Jay said:

For HP3, Mike just just had what WB gave him and he put them on the set.  It's the final edit and mix as used in the 2 main US trailers. I have no idea if there is trailer house involvement in the first 27 seconds of the teaser or if that is how JW recorded it, but from there to the end it sounds to that that is certainly just JW.  The final trailer track is certainly nothing JW had any involvement in.

 

I'm inclined to believe the Magic Box guys about the beginning of the POA teaser. I seem to recall their website once featuring their early version/demo of that part; it was just the string chords, without the Williams-esque flute lines and the bit of Hedwig's theme. (God, I wish I'd saved that file; can't seem to find it now, even with the Wayback Machine.) But regardless, that chord progression is a bit more harmonically straightforward than what Williams typically writes.

 

EDIT: Ha! Found it...sorta! I still seem to recall an audio file that was JUST that intro without Hedwig's theme, but better than nothing. (This can also be found as a MOV file on the Wayback Machine.)

 

 

[Jay 37,312]

What does the leaked sheet music for the HP3 teaser tell us about it?

[Datameister 2,037]

3 minutes ago, Jay said:

What does the leaked sheet music for the HP3 teaser tell us about it?

 

The sheet music exactly matches the entirety of the final track heard in the teaser and on the LLL release, and interestingly, only Williams is credited as the composer.

[Jay 37,312]

Yea, it seems indeed the construction of those first 27 seconds were setup by the trailer house dudes, but Hedwig's Theme is of course a JW composition and everything after 0:27 is certainly newly written by JW so their contribution from a compositional standpoint is minimal, but it is slightly unusual they wouldn't be listed on the sheets they used at the recording sessions.  Oh well.

[Datameister 2,037]

Agreed on all points!

[TSMefford 1,509]

1 hour ago, Datameister said:

 

I'm inclined to believe the Magic Box guys about the beginning of the POA teaser. I seem to recall their website once featuring their early version/demo of that part; it was just the string chords, without the Williams-esque flute lines and the bit of Hedwig's theme. (God, I wish I'd saved that file; can't seem to find it now, even with the Wayback Machine.) But regardless, that chord progression is a bit more harmonically straightforward than what Williams typically writes.

 

EDIT: Ha! Found it...sorta! I still seem to recall an audio file that was JUST that intro without Hedwig's theme, but better than nothing. (This can also be found as a MOV file on the Wayback Machine.)

 

 

 

The track you're referring to is called "Anticipation" and yes, it's an early version of such from Brand X Music. For the longest time people simply regarded that section of the Teaser music as that track, but it's clearly modified.

 

So, what I gather from what the Magic Box Music folks said is that they were working on the trailer until the studio decided to make it mostly out of the Double Trouble song, with John Williams recording it. However, I suppose they liked this intro bit enough to still include it. So, it was written into the sheet music. So, yeah. 

 

Not a clue who did the other Trailer track. Magic Box does not include that trailer on their site, only the international ones, so it could've been somewhere else.

42 minutes ago, Jay said:

Yea, it seems indeed the construction of those first 27 seconds were setup by the trailer house dudes, but Hedwig's Theme is of course a JW composition and everything after 0:27 is certainly newly written by JW so their contribution from a compositional standpoint is minimal, but it is slightly unusual they wouldn't be listed on the sheets they used at the recording sessions.  Oh well.

 

Yup. Pretty much. 

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

The PoA teaser is one of the greatest trailers ever made. Change my mind.

[TSMefford 1,509]

1 minute ago, Docteur Qui said:

The PoA teaser is one of the greatest trailers ever made. Change my mind.

 

Oh it's great. Pretty ballsy too compared to today's trailer standards (which are god awful). I mean, they came right out of the gate with an extremely different look, feel, and tone. I remember being around Potter fans when this trailer came out and many were very taken aback, but it represents the film well, it was daring, and it didn't give too much away. That's something basically all trailers now could learn from.

[Datameister 2,037]

1 hour ago, Docteur Qui said:

The PoA teaser is one of the greatest trailers ever made. Change my mind.

 

I’m a fan too. Creates a nice sense of excitement about the film, establishes an important part of the film’s musical identity, and really doesn’t spoil much about the film. (I mean, granted, with a film based on a book you’ve already read, there’s not much to spoil, but still.)

[crumbs 14,304]

 

It seems the sequence underwent some editorial changes after Williams scored it. Some parts of the music run longer than the film (notably Sirius and Lupin chasing Pettigrew in rat form), while some parts of the final film run longer than the music. To conform the music to the scene I've removed some dialogue and created blank holes where the film has been cut down.

[bollemanneke 3,338]

Disc 5: my thoughts.

I'm obviously continuing to enjoy al the wonderful music. What mostly struck me about this disc were some split points between tracks that I don't really agree with: I think that Car Drives Off/It's A Basilisk/Ginny Gets Snatched and Myrtle's Tale/The Chamber Opens/The Search for Ginny should each have been one track and I definitely don't understand why Meeting Aragog and The Spiders Attack isn't one piece either, like in the movie. There's also a rather long silence between Hagrid's Arrest and Folllow the Spiders and hearing Harry's Wondrous World yet again wasn't really necessary.

On to the bonus section. The prologue alternate is gorgeous, Filch's Warning, Introducing Colin and Transformation Class seem rather pointless, Petrified Colin is a very nice surprise, Christmas Break is great, Follow the Spiders is a lot less interesting and while Car Drives Off is fantastic, wouldn't it have been really awesome if it had been part of the main program? Fawkes Heals Harry needs more examining and the television commercials are simply splendid.

[Arpy 4,145]

@bollemanneke if the score is presenting all the material recorded for it as an expanded set, how is it unnecessary? Harry's Wondrous World is the recording for CoS so it makes sense for it to be there. I'm sure all the alternates were warranted too.

 

On the basis of listening experience, I'd say it would've been a tough act to get exactly what you'd want versus something that sounds pleasing, but chronologically wrong. It bugged me that Train to Hogwarts V1 in Azkaban is placed after Apparition on the Train, but after a while it made perfect sense to me to have it as an ensemble with the other 'trouble' variations.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

40 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

Disc 5: my thoughts.

I'm obviously continuing to enjoy al the wonderful music. What mostly struck me about this disc were some split points between tracks that I don't really agree with: I think that Car Drives Off/It's A Basilisk/Ginny Gets Snatched and Myrtle's Tale/The Chamber Opens/The Search for Ginny should each have been one track and I definitely don't understand why Meeting Aragog and The Spiders Attack isn't one piece either, like in the movie. There's also a rather long silence between Hagrid's Arrest and Folllow the Spiders and hearing Harry's Wondrous World yet again wasn't really necessary.

On to the bonus section. The prologue alternate is gorgeous, Filch's Warning, Introducing Colin and Transformation Class seem rather pointless, Petrified Colin is a very nice surprise, Christmas Break is great, Follow the Spiders is a lot less interesting and while Car Drives Off is fantastic, wouldn't it have been really awesome if it had been part of the main program? Fawkes Heals Harry needs more examining and the television commercials are simply splendid.

That's exactly what I thought! And yes, it would have been better and less redundant!

[Richard Penna 3,674]

What's the difference with Prologue: Book II? All I hear is some minor instrumentation differences. The only alternate I kept for this set is Aunt Marge's Waltz. That alternate/unused opening is awesome.

 

I also put Hedwig's Theme For Harp where Fluffy's Harp is meant to be. From the first time hearing that track on the OST I've never latched onto it.

 

My minor niggle is that Boys Receive Detention has an alternate section at 1:16 just before the sweep over the castle. The film has a shorter sustained note and I could've sworn I'd heard it somewhere else in the score (tracked) but I couldn't find it.

[bollemanneke 3,338]

1 hour ago, Arpy said:

@bollemanneke if the score is presenting all the material recorded for it as an expanded set, how is it unnecessary? Harry's Wondrous World is the recording for CoS so it makes sense for it to be there. I'm sure all the alternates were warranted too.

 

On the basis of listening experience, I'd say it would've been a tough act to get exactly what you'd want versus something that sounds pleasing, but chronologically wrong. It bugged me that Train to Hogwarts V1 in Azkaban is placed after Apparition on the Train, but after a while it made perfect sense to me to have it as an ensemble with the other 'trouble' variations.

You can only include HWW so many times before it gets redundant. Both versions in HP1 are warranted, but that's it.

[Holko 9,499]

The end of Boys Receive Detention is basically the end of Running to McGonagall.

[Richard Penna 3,674]

Yep. I always preferred that brief string sustain in the film though.

[MrJosh 892]

2 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

What's the difference with Prologue: Book II? All I hear is some minor instrumentation differences. 

On the alternate, the Celeste has an added left hand part playing under the melody in the right hand, and the super-quick violin part is actually different and comes in at a different point in the opening. 

 

 

[Brundlefly 2,385]

Too bad "Time Past" and "Saving Buckbeak" are joined to one track. They work very well together, however, I would have loved to swap the original "Saving Buckbeak" with the film version. The revised bat insert doesn't really fit, neither musically to the rest of the cue nor to the film scene. The original version is much better and moreover not so awkwardly edited to the preceeding music.

[bollemanneke 3,338]

Disagree.

[Faleel 5,340]

It's not supposed to fit, it's called contrast.

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

There's simply too many notes.

[Jay 37,312]

8 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

On to the bonus section. The prologue alternate is gorgeous, Filch's Warning, Introducing Colin and Transformation Class seem rather pointless, Petrified Colin is a very nice surprise, Christmas Break is great, Follow the Spiders is a lot less interesting and while Car Drives Off is fantastic, wouldn't it have been really awesome if it had been part of the main program? Fawkes Heals Harry needs more examining and the television commercials are simply splendid.

 

The only difference with "Introducing Colin" and "Fawkes Heals Harry" is that the OST album happened to use different takes than the film did, so Mike included them in the bonus track to be 100% complete with regards to what was available on the OST.  Every single other cue used the same takes on the OST as the film did and we don't know why those two were different.

 

Either version of Filch's Warning is "pointless", really, as its just a tiny bit of Norwegian Ridgeback from HP1 either way, but it was recorded once at a short length (which was in the recording session leak) and once at a longer length (which was in the film) so we included both to be comprehensive.

 

I can't imagine why you'd think Follow The Spiders is "a lot less interesting" when it is 100% identical to the version in the main program until the end, which is the cooler original ending that was originally written and recorded, as opposed to the final version used in the film (and the main LLL program and the recording session leak) which omits the fun looping bit to just fade out instead.

 

I'm not sure how Car Drives Off Alternate could go into the main program, when the version used is already in the main program.  You'd want the alternate and the used version to appear back to back like that?

 

The alternate Prologue, the cool Petrified Colin original ending, and the television commercials are indeed the highlights of the HP2 bonus tracks, no doubt.  The version of Christmas Break in the bonus tracks is the same version we had in the session leak that was also the version used in the film;  It's the main program version of Christmas Break that is new, that's the full long version as written and recorded that was used in the extended cut of the film.

[Datameister 2,037]

Whooooaaa, the alternate version of "Aunt Marge Points the Finger" (perhaps simply titled "Marge Points the Finger", based on the BMI cue list?) is totally in the film. It's so dissonant and rumbly - and mixed so low - that I don't think I ever realized I was hearing music there. 😂 In fact, I'm also hearing a tiny snippet of it in place of "That's a Lie" in the film, and I think it might have been tracked into some of the film edit of "The Confrontation Scene." Fascinating!

[TSMefford 1,509]

1 hour ago, Datameister said:

I think it might have been tracked into some of the film edit of "The Confrontation Scene." Fascinating!

 

That's what I suspected too. I used the version we have on the set in my film edit on the Confrontation Scene,

[Josh500 1,615]

9 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

The revised bat insert doesn't really fit, neither musically to the rest of the cue nor to the film scene. The original version is much better and moreover not so awkwardly edited to the preceeding music.

 

I agree. I'm not very partial to the film version of the bat cue. Almost takes you right out of the movie....

 

The original version was perfect! Cuaron should have left that scene alone.

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

Anyone seen this? I think a fairly literate assessment of the music.

 

 

I might not agree with anything but one thing I do agree with - Williams just suddenly abandoned his main themes for Movie 3.

 

I think the lack of the Family/Harry theme and the main Friendship there is a devastating loss.

 

I can think of countless instances where the Friendship theme could have been profoundly used in the subsequent films.

 

Seriously for Williams to write such a massively elaborate complex score - all to be just discarded by future directors.

 

[Arpy 4,145]

A devastating loss? @TheUlyssesian Window to the Past fills in for the family theme in Azkaban. To be honest, I think the family theme is a little too resplendent for the needs of the film.

[Josh500 1,615]

3 minutes ago, Arpy said:

A devastating loss? @TheUlyssesian Window to the Past fills in for the family theme in Azkaban. To be honest, I think the family theme is a little too resplendent for the needs of the film.

 

I agree.

 

The HP Family Theme as well as the Friendship Theme are just too joyous, too carefree, too unabashedly positive to fit the later HP films. These are themes written to reflect children's views.The characters evolved, grew up. So should the themes, and Williams recognised that, and wrote accordingly.

[Arpy 4,145]

Family Portrait in the Children's Suite is the closest thing to what I think Williams would've written for the Family Theme in place of the Past theme. 

[crumbs 14,304]

I think it's a great example of Williams being subservient to the director's vision, that he had no qualms discarding almost all of his established musical themes for film 3. More egotistical composers might have baulked at the idea, or retained the themes with different orchestration. 

 

Ultimately we don't really know if Williams ever intended the Potter scores to replicate the thematic tapestry of his Star Wars episodes, but clearly he wasn't fussed about trying something completely fresh for PoA. He also might have felt the amount of musical repetition in CoS was a good excuse to start with a clean slate. 

[Arpy 4,145]

I always felt like the family/harry theme represented Harry adapting and finding a home at Hogwarts, and the maturation of the characters and the overall darkness of the series naturally lead to Williams writing new things to fit the tone of the film when it came to Azkaban.

The Past theme is the emotional core, having multiple themes to convey the same basic emotional connection would've muddied the waters a little. 

[Holko 9,499]

I'm not bothered about the Family theme not being in Azkaban for one reason - it got the most bombastic and over the top sendoff possible in Reunion of Friends!

[Josh500 1,615]

25 minutes ago, Arpy said:

The Past theme is the emotional core, having multiple themes to convey the same basic emotional connection would've muddied the waters a little. 

 

Remember Chris Columbus was still involved in PoA! 

 

I'm sure during the spotting sessions or during lunch or whatever, Williams, Cuaron, and Columbus sat down and discussed the music. They probably decided that, the third movie looking and feeling decidedly different from the first two, it also needed fresh music that reflected the change. It's a collaborative effort, but the way Columbus and Cuaron generally gush about Williams, they might have let Williams have the last say. And it sure was the right decision!

 

Besides, another consideration might have been that, without enough new material, PoA might have been disqualified at the major awards, like CoS...

[Faleel 5,340]

Let's not forget that COS drops some themes too. (Voldemort, Hogwarts, Quidditch)

[Josh500 1,615]

3 minutes ago, Faleel J.M. said:

Let's not forget that COS drops some themes too. (Voldemort, Hogwarts, Quidditch)

 

Maybe those themes were a bit too much for WR to handle... 😂

[Faleel 5,340]

When did Ross become the new Pope?