Harry Potter 7CD Collection - MUSIC discussion

[Josh500 1,615]

6 minutes ago, TSMefford said:

 

I'll work on it. I think I may have missed something when I did my first pass on it. So once it's updated I'll put something together.

 

This scene, from 2:23 onwards! 

 

JW really outdid himself there! But again, the music is way too soft, alas... 

 

 

[Jay 37,310]

Josh is asking more for Crumbs style of videos, where the music is left unedited and the picture goes black if footage was dropped that Williams scored

[TSMefford 1,509]

1 minute ago, Jay said:

Josh is asking more for Crumbs style of videos, where the music is left unedited and the picture goes black if footage was dropped that Williams scored

 

Ah. Okay. I'll give it a shot. but @crumbs could probably do it better.

[Josh500 1,615]

Well, whether the picture goes black or not, I'd love to see this scene with the music mixed properly. I don't even need to hear the actors or sound effects!

[TSMefford 1,509]

5 minutes ago, Josh500 said:

Well, whether the picture goes black or not, I'd love to see this scene with the music mixed properly. I don't even need to hear the actors or sound effects!

 

I guess the main question is are you looking for how the music was written? Or how it was edited to the film? I'll probably go ahead and post the scene with the edited music isolated since that's what I've got to contribute. Lol.

[Josh500 1,615]

3 minutes ago, TSMefford said:

 

I guess the main question is are you looking for how the music was written? Or how it was edited to the film? I'll probably go ahead and post the scene with the edited music isolated since that's what I've got to contribute. Lol.

 

Well, in this particular case, it's not that much different, I think? It's not too badly edited, is it? At least compared with some other cues... But in any case, I'm looking to hear this cue more loudly, together with the picture. In the movie, it's barely audible, unless you really strain your ears. 

[TSMefford 1,509]

1 minute ago, Josh500 said:

 

Well, in this particular case, it's not that much different, I think? It's not too badly edited, is it? At least compared with some other cues... But in any case, I'm looking to hear this cue more loudly, together with the picture. In the movie, it's barely audible, unless you really strain your ears. 

 

Ehhh. It's a bit different. I'll just throw it up and if people enjoy it, then cool. XD

[bollemanneke 3,338]

1 hour ago, Josh500 said:

 

Sounds like a dream! 

 

In contrast, the first two Potter movies, as well as the Home Alone movies have the perfect mix, imo. Chris Columbus, like Spielberg, just knows how to use JW's scores to the best effect! 

Um, sorry, but did you ever watch HP2? The music volume is terrible!

[Josh500 1,615]

5 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

Um, sorry, but did you ever watch HP2? The music volume is terrible!

 

Is it? Maybe. 

 

It's been a long time since I saw CoS!

[TSMefford 1,509]

Here you go @Josh500. This is the score as edited in the film, to picture. 

 

 

Now, just because I enjoy this, here are the most noticeable differences (that are not super specific edits):

• Right away, the opening is different, removing the Ticking clock and Chimes until around 0:11
• 2:09-2:38 retains the ticking clock in the film. This section has no ticking on the LLL set or the OST.
• 3:55-4:03 plays the Flutes a second time. It's not looped, but overlayed over the top of the cue the second time.
• 4:52-5:00 retains the ticking clock in the film. This section has no ticking on the LLL set. This section is also slowed down, you can hear the tempo change in the ticking.
• 5:17 onward the film does not feature ticking. This section is present on the LLL set and the OST.
• 8:49-End is slowed down quite a bit from what is on the LLL set. It plays at 117% it's original length.

 

There are plenty of other edits, loops, tempo changes, etc. of course, but the above are the very clear differences. I also just want to say, this was a pain in the ass to replicate and it's still not quite perfect. Damn editors. Lol.

[Josh500 1,615]

@TSMefford

 

Just watched it! Thanks. 

 

This is really one of my all-time favourite cues from the entire Harry Potter series... The entire sequence fascinates me beyond words. There's really no recognizable theme here, just a kind of repetitive motif going on and on and driving and enhancing the action on screen... But every little nuance is acknowledged and taken into account. The inventiveness of this piece is staggering and mind-blowing! In some ways, this reminds me of "Schindler's Workforce" and "The Mecha World" from A.I.! 

[Mr. Who 919]

Could the last bit of Wizard's Consort be an alternate for Shawm?

[Jay 37,310]

41 minutes ago, Josh500 said:

There's really no recognizable theme here

 

Buckbeak's Flight theme appears at 2:30 when they spot Buckbeak in the distance

[Brundlefly 2,385]

1 hour ago, TSMefford said:

Here you go @Josh500. This is the score as edited in the film, to picture. 

 

 

Now, just because I enjoy this, here are the most noticeable differences (that are not super specific edits):

• Right away, the opening is different, removing the Ticking clock and Chimes until around 0:11
• 2:09-2:38 retains the ticking clock in the film. This section has no ticking on the LLL set or the OST.
• 3:55-4:03 plays the Flutes a second time. It's not looped, but overlayed over the top of the cue the second time.
• 4:52-5:00 retains the ticking clock in the film. This section has no ticking on the LLL set. This section is also slowed down, you can hear the tempo change in the ticking.
• 5:17 onward the film does not feature ticking. This section is present on the LLL set and the OST.
• 8:49-End is slowed down quite a bit from what is on the LLL set. It plays at 117% it's original length.

 

There are plenty of other edits, loops, tempo changes, etc. of course, but the above are the very clear differences. I also just want to say, this was a pain in the ass to replicate and it's still not quite perfect. Damn editors. Lol.

The film version of the bat sequence does so not fit in comparison to the original! Why did they replace that?!

[Faleel 5,340]

Because it fit too well.

[TSMefford 1,509]

3 minutes ago, Brundlefly said:

The film version of the bat sequence does so not fit in comparison to the original! Why did they replace that?!

 

I’m fine with it.

[Faleel 5,340]

the revised version is so much better, it sounds like The Fortress of Solitude, which is one of my top Williams cues.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

Just now, TSMefford said:

I’m fine with it.

It's okay, but why go the extra mile to worsen the scene. Normally, you put extra effort into something in order to improve it. As a consequence of musical flow I would have banned the film version to the bonus section.

[Josh500 1,615]

14 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

Buckbeak's Flight theme appears at 2:30 when they spot Buckbeak in the distance

 

Wow. I never realised this. 

 

It's just three notes, though. Three descending notes. It could just be coincidence... But then again, nah! It's John Williams. Of course it's Buckbeak's Theme! 😂 

[Chewy 2,381]

2 hours ago, TSMefford said:

•  the opening is different, removing the Ticking clock and Chimes until around 0:11

Did you only use the LLL track to get that version without the chimes?

[Jay 37,310]

On 12/18/2018 at 6:17 PM, Brundlefly said:

Was "Reviewing the Recent Past" presented in complete form on the OST? If I'm not mistaken, the Buckbeak's Flight-statement at the end was omitted.

 

On 12/19/2018 at 1:51 PM, Jay said:

Bloody hell!  I've listened to that bit a million times and never noticed it was basically the Buckbeak's Flight melody in disguise!  How cool!

 

On 12/19/2018 at 4:30 PM, Chewy said:

John Williams is a genius, we are still finding hidden stuff after 14 years!

 

On 12/19/2018 at 4:38 PM, Jay said:

Yes!

 

On 12/19/2018 at 5:03 PM, crumbs said:

Don't know which part of that track you're all referring to but can't wait to see if I pick up on it!

 

On 12/19/2018 at 5:08 PM, bollemanneke said:

Or we're overthinking.

 

On 12/19/2018 at 5:42 PM, Docteur Qui said:

I first noticed it when I saw PoA in concert last month. I didn't say anything because I thought it must've been in the sheet music and everyone knew about it 😫

 

On 12/19/2018 at 5:46 PM, TSMefford said:

I knew it existed but had not clued in on the melody either until it was mentioned. So it's a fantastic catch!

 

On 12/19/2018 at 6:06 PM, Taikomochi said:

Anyone got a track/timestamp for this Buckbeak’s Flight quote?

 

On 12/19/2018 at 6:41 PM, mrbellamy said:

It’s about 2:30 of “Time Past/Saving Buckbeak,” on clarinet.

 

In the movie it’s when Harry/Hermione realize that Buckbeak’s “still alive” before heading down to Hagrid’s hut.

 

On 12/19/2018 at 6:42 PM, crocodile said:

I never noticed that the Buckbeak flight theme appears in the Time Past/Saving Buckbeak.

 

EDIT: Oh my god, I just read the posts above mine talking about the same exact thing. 😂

 

Karol

 

On 12/19/2018 at 7:12 PM, Once said:

I noticed the 'Buckbeak's Flight' statment on one of my first viewings of the film. As I child I always wondered why Williams didn't include it as an ending to 'Forward to Time Past'. But I was 10 years old at the time and was just starting to get obsessed with how thematic material could be twisted and turned in endless variations. I really grew up on these Potter scores.

 

On 12/19/2018 at 10:17 PM, King Mark said:

 I never noticed that bit was unreleased or that it was added to the new track or that it was Buckbeak's flight

 

[TSMefford 1,509]

Lol.

12 minutes ago, Brundlefly said:

It's okay, but why go the extra mile to worsen the scene. Normally, you put extra effort into something in order to improve it. As a consequence of musical flow I would have banned the film version to the bonus section.

 

Thats your opinion. XD.

[Josh500 1,615]

WTH. Everybody saying the same thing! 

 

John Williams would be laughing his ass off if he saw this...

[TSMefford 1,509]

11 minutes ago, Chewy said:

Did you only use the LLL track to get that version without the chimes?

 

No, that’s the segment presented in the Art of the Score podcast. Would’ve been impossible to get without it. I merely edited it onto the LLL track.

 

4 minutes ago, Josh500 said:

WTH. Everybody saying the same thing! 

 

John Williams would be laughing his ass off if he saw this...

 

Indeed!

[Josh500 1,615]

This raises one question, though. Does this theme actually represent Buckbeak himself rather than Buckbeak's Flight? Because, obviously, Buckbeak isn't flying in this scene.

 

I still think, though, that this is a theme for the Flying Buckbeak (as the track title says). Why did John Williams use it in this scene then? Ah, that's just the genius of JW. Here we see Buckbeak shackled and unable to move and about to be slaughtered....  And we get a sad, heartbreaking reminder of the majestic Buckbeak flying freely and happily through the skies. JW is reminding us of that wonderful moment right in Buckbeak's darkest and most dire hour of need!

[bollemanneke 3,338]

Josh, you should write a score analysis. I mean it.

[Josh500 1,615]

8 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

Josh, you should write a score analysis. I mean it.

 

It's moments like these (and there are a lot of them!) that prove John Williams's genius. Nobody understands the underlying meanings and emotions and subtle nuances of any given scene and translates them into music better than him! 

[Alex 2,833]

Did anyone notice the statement of Buckbeak’s Flight in “The Rescue of Sirius”? It’s subtle but you can just about hear it from 0.38 - 1.22.

[bollemanneke 3,338]

Oh my God, you're right!

[Brundlefly 2,385]

1 hour ago, Josh500 said:

And we get a sad, heartbreaking reminder of the majestic Buckbeak flying freely and happily through the skies. JW is reminding us of that wonderful moment right in Buckbeak's darkest and most dire hour of need!

It's not necessarily sad. It sounds peaceful and tender, but in context (knowing an execution is about to happen which Buckbeak isn't aware of) it might appear as sad and heartbreaking.

1 hour ago, Josh500 said:

It's moments like these (and there are a lot of them!) that prove John Williams's genius. Nobody understands the underlying meanings and emotions and subtle nuances of any given scene and translates them into music better than him! 

Goldsmith actually focuses more on that than Williams. But these two are hard to beat.

[crumbs 14,304]

Despite seeing a scene dozens of times, it's funny the things you notice only after hearing the LLL set: the film itself has always contained the grace note in The Firebolt!

 

Rather cleverly, Mike omitted said grace note from the alternate Firebolt while retaining it for the film score presentation (in line with the film itself). So we got the best of both worlds. Smart compromise, @Jay.

 

[Datameister 2,037]

Huh...this is probably old news, but it's occurring to me that "Double Trouble on the Hill" (AKA "The Hippogriff Lesson") must have been intended to start right after "You Have the Grim." It starts later in the film, but a big chunk was cut out of the beginning. The cue title makes more sense with this timing, too...the whole first part of it (unscored in the final cut) would have covered the kids walking down the hill. And in terms of sheer musicality, it makes for a nice end-of-real contrast from music that is literally grim to the lighter, antiquatedly elegant intro of "Double Trouble on the Hill."

 

I still may prefer listening to it with "Sir Cadogan" first, though...

[crumbs 14,304]

21 minutes ago, Datameister said:

Huh...this is probably old news, but it's occurring to me that "Double Trouble on the Hill" (AKA "The Hippogriff Lesson") must have been intended to start right after "You Have the Grim." It starts later in the film, but a big chunk was cut out of the beginning. The cue title makes more sense with this timing, too...the whole first part of it (unscored in the final cut) would have covered the kids walking down the hill. And in terms of sheer musicality, it makes for a nice end-of-real contrast from music that is literally grim to the lighter, antiquatedly elegant intro of "Double Trouble on the Hill."

 

It's interesting you raise this because it's one of the first things I attempted to re-create. It's really hard to sync up. The score itself in the movie is both looped and cut down in different places, so whatever Williams scored was a very different cut.

 

The cue title itself would indicate Williams did intend the cue for the scene on the hill though, absolutely. And the first 30-odd seconds works pretty effectively over the scene, it's just the rest that falls out of sync, a few seconds here and there. I'm thinking the music editors disregarded Williams' intentions and just edited the music to fit the scene here (with the only obvious sync point being the ending with Neville and the book attack).

 

And yeah, Sir Cadogan in the LLL assembly works brilliantly before The Hippogriff Lesson, just as it did on the OST. Not totally convinced on the recorder source being adjoined to it but that's personal preference.

[Josh500 1,615]

8 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

Goldsmith actually focuses more on that than Williams. But these two are hard to beat.

 

You know, I've heard that said a few times. I personally don't hear it (and I own around 80 JG scores--far from complete, but enough to know)! 

 

Goldsmith was a master, no doubt, I'm a big fan of his, but no way he tops Williams in this regard. At least, in my opinion.

8 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

It's not necessarily sad. It sounds peaceful and tender, but in context (knowing an execution is about to happen which Buckbeak isn't aware of) it might appear as sad and heartbreaking.

 

Well, of course. But that stands to reason. The short quote of the theme in question itself is a mere three notes. Three notes in any combination doesn't (and couldn't) express anything! It's Williams's use of this short quote at this particular moment that evokes a sad, heartbreaking feeling in the listener/viewer! A distant echo from a happy past, as it were.

[Faleel 5,340]

3 hours ago, Josh500 said:

 Three notes in any combination doesn't (and couldn't) express anything!

 

[mrbellamy 6,272]

That Buckbeak quote is six notes, not three.

[publicist 4,643]

3 hours ago, Josh500 said:

You know, I've heard that said a few times. I personally don't hear it (and I own around 80 JG scores--far from complete, but enough to know)! 

 

Goldsmith was a master, no doubt, I'm a big fan of his, but no way he tops Williams in this regard. At least, in my opinion.

 

It's rather old news that Williams uses (mostly) a less internalized way of scoring, or to put it more prosaic, scores it for an audience seeing a scene for the first time in a more editorializing, in-your-face way (thematically/aesthetically, the first Potter might be one of the 'worst' examples). That doesn't preclude the more inward scoring towards psychological states but it's probably part of his success. In no way is he (or wants to be) a match for the Goldsmith/North posse.

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

I've never found Goldsmith's scores to be very strong on the emotional side.

[mrbellamy 6,272]

15 minutes ago, publicist said:

It's rather old news that Williams uses (mostly) a less internalized way of scoring, or to put it more prosaic, scores it for an audience seeing a scene for the first time in a more editorializing, in-your-face way (thematically/aesthetically, the first Potter might be one of the 'worst' examples). That doesn't preclude the more inward scoring towards psychological states but it's probably part of his success. In no way is he (or wants to be) a match for the Goldsmith/North posse.

 

 

Certainly the reason he and Spielberg make such a pair. 

[Holko 9,499]

13 hours ago, TSMefford said:

 

 

 

I'm guessing you transitioned to the LLL set right after the intro from the podcast? The reverse overlays early on were shifted in the movie, too. See at 0:13 in your video.

 

See at 0:12 in this video which uses the iso score from the podcast:

The overlay is longer (about 6 loops of it, though faded in and out, unlike the clear 5 on the OST), starts earlier, mixed lower and accenting a different beat.

[Arpy 4,145]

@Holko Is that 'Complete Score' video from the iso score, the recording sessions, someone's edit of LLL or a mix of the three? I watched a few of them on YouTube and the sound and mix is all over the place. What a bummer to own the sessions and then then have the LLL set release.  

[Holko 9,499]

That must just be an edit that he mislabelled Recording Sessions to be sensational and bring in the ignorants. It's a mishmash as far as I can see from the LLL and the Art of the Score - also he uploaded weirdly clean but not perfect cues earlier than the LLL was announced.

[crumbs 14,304]

5 minutes ago, Holko said:

That must just be an edit that he mislabelled Recording Sessions to be sensational and bring in the ignorants. It's a mishmash as far as I can see from the LLL and the Art of the Score - also he uploaded weirdly clean but not perfect cues earlier than the LLL was announced.

 

Yeah that was interesting to me, stuff that wasn't available before the LLL or AOTS podcast.

 

Of course, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that the sessions are in the possession of some collectors. I'd be more surprised if they weren't.

[Holko 9,499]

I haven't listened to most of the cues he uploaded - will perhaps do so after I already have the set - but the inclusion of "Headless Hunt (alternate)", which is the tambourine intro+Cadogan slowed down but without the tambourine overlay leads me to believe he doesn't have the full iso score and also doesn't know that the cue was only tracked and overlaid with percussion, or wasn't in the cue list, certainly not with that title.

[Arpy 4,145]

It's possible that they were sessions or a very good editing job that were circulating and their value decreased in the trading circles since the LLL release. It's just slimey to label it one way or the other, why not be open about where they came from!

[bollemanneke 3,338]

So, what reasoning do people think is behind the repeated alternate first Boggart cue in the main programme?

[publicist 4,643]

2 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

I've never found Goldsmith's scores to be very strong on the emotional side.

 

Not from the film's character's POV (and not as synonym for 'it made me cry', to which it is often flimsily reduced).

[Faleel 5,340]

40 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

So, what reasoning do people think is behind the repeated alternate first Boggart cue in the main programme?

It sounded good musically to MM?

[Jay 37,310]

MM didn't edit the gracenote out of the Firebolt alternate, that track presents the cue as recorded (the entire set presents the cues at their full recorded length, he didn't go around editing bits out).  Obviously after that was recorded, AC re-edited the scene, and JW had to add a grace note to the revised cue to cover the new length. Then, JW chose to have the grace note edited out for the OST album. 

[TSMefford 1,509]

5 hours ago, Holko said:

 

I'm guessing you transitioned to the LLL set right after the intro from the podcast? The reverse overlays early on were shifted in the movie, too. See at 0:13 in your video.

 

See at 0:12 in this video which uses the iso score from the podcast:

The overlay is longer (about 6 loops of it, though faded in and out, unlike the clear 5 on the OST), starts earlier, mixed lower and accenting a different beat.

 

I am aware of this, but I chose to make the transition to the LLL track where I did consciously (I did mention it was not a perfect edit) because the ISO score mix (as in, the EQ, the stereo field, etc) is so different, and I wanted to transition to a lossless source as soon as possible. I have an alternate version for myself that is a bit uglier in edit. Ultimately I just prefer the LLL mix. Sounds better. 

 

I suppose i could take my video down and replace it.