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SPOILER TALK: Avengers: Endgame

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This may be a bit early, but with Endgame hitting theaters in less than a month, I thought it'd be a good idea go ahead and make this thread.

 

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For big films that will generate a lot of discussion, we'll be creating spoilers-allowed threads where people can discuss everything openly without needing to use spoiler blocks.  This lets people avoid the discussion entirely until they've seen the film, and makes it easier to discuss for people who have seen it.

 

You are welcome to post spoiler-free thoughts in What Is The Last Film You Watched? (Newer films) or Marvel Cinematic Universe, but in here, feel free to say anything and not use any spoiler tags at all. 

 

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Hello!

 

For big films that will generate a lot of discussion, we'll be creating spoilers-allowed threads where people can discuss everything openly without needing to use spoiler blocks.  This lets people avoid the discussion entirely until they've seen the film, and makes it easier to discuss for people who have seen it.

 

You are welcome to post spoiler-free thoughts in What Is The Last Film You Watched? (Newer films) or Marvel Cinematic Universe, but in here, feel free to say anything and not use any spoiler tags at all. 

 

Enjoy!

 

Previous threads:

 

 

ALL OPEN SPOILERS ALLOWED BEYOND THIS POINT, NO SPOILER BLOCKS REQUIRED!

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It’s been getting really strong reviews so far... currently 98% on RT with an average rating of 8.4/10. 

 

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Critics Consensus: Exciting, entertaining, and emotionally impactful, Avengers: Endgame does whatever it takes to deliver a satisfying finale to Marvel's epic Infinity Saga.

 

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The spoilers I’ve read sound awful. Like... really bad. The whole thing seems overly convoluted.

 

Anyway, RT scores are weird. 

 

Donald Clarke of the Irish Times gave it 3/5 and said “Endgame spends too much time wallowing in its own pompous mythology” and that’s counted as a fresh review. I’d you read his review it’s anythjng but “fresh”.

 

 

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That whole yes/no percentage that is so advertised and glorified is complete bullshit. The average rating /5 is right below it in finer print.

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Agreed. It’s a load of bullshit. It makes lots of films appear to be better or worse than they are. It feeds into the toxic “a new film is either the best or worst film ever” thing

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5 minutes ago, Bilbo said:

Agreed. It’s a load of bullshit. It makes lots of films appear to be better or worse than they are. It feeds into the toxic “a new film is either the best or worst film ever” thing

Correct. Theoretically a 3/5 average rated film could have 100% if everyone rated between 2.5 and 3.5. (don't actually know how they determine positive or negative per review)

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10 minutes ago, Holko said:

Correct. Theoretically a 3/5 average rated film could have 100% if everyone rated between 2.5 and 3.5. (don't actually know how they determine positive or negative per review)

 

The crybabies tweeting him over not loving the film are hilarious 😂

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22 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

I'm trying to avoid the finer plot points in terms of spoilers, but my question is simple.

 

Is it a good resolution to the previous films?

Have you seen Solo yet?

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Loki wasn't killed by the snap so, like Vision, he's not coming back.

 

I enjoyed the film. It's big and clunky, not really what I was expecting...but that's a good thing. Definitely feels like an ending. It's absolutely jam-packed with stuff but feels satisfying.

 

Karol

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2 hours ago, crocodile said:

Loki wasn't killed by the snap so, like Vision, he's not coming back.

Lol I know that. But Thor doesn't remember that he had a brother even after seeing him in the past. Not a line when he is depressed and alcoholic. Not a line during the talk with Valkyrie about New Asgard... why?

 

Karol

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I agree with that it felt wrong to give the shield to Falcon. I always thought it’d be Bucky.

 

I also agree with that the ”girl power” scene was bad and cringeworthy. It was short (thank God for small mercies) but jarringly out-of-place, and it was only there to serve the SJW agenda. My girlfriend actually turned to me making a “disgusted” face. 😂

 

The only “slow” moment that had actual resonance with me was Thor’s moment with his mom. That felt real. Now that I think about it, it was probably the only good piece of acting in the entire movie. (The other’s we’re fine, too, but, you know, it was all pretty standard stuff.)

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4 hours ago, Fabulin said:

Lol I know that. But Thor doesn't remember that he had a brother even after seeing him in the past. Not a line when he is depressed and alcoholic. Not a line during the talk with Valkyrie about New Asgard... why?

 

Karol

Umm... 3 hours running time? I bet there was some sort of reference to Loki in the film but it got cut. It's overstuffed already as is. But I can see your point. 

 

As for Sam/Bucky ending, both were Captain America in comics. I suppose it's a matter of taste which one is a more suitable replacement.

 

I can agree with most nitpicking really. The film certainly isn't perfect. But it succeeds as an emotional send-off which is all it needs to do really. It's less of a film and more of an rollercoaster ride. But yeah, some things don't make sense... Peter Parker going back to school 5 years later? Were all his friends gone too for all this time? They are all in the next Spidey film.

 

Silvestri's score was actually quite interesting. Quite different from his other Marvel scores as well. I'm interested to hear it on its own. There was a lot more variety there and dozen of references to other films. The finale music sounded very much like Cast Away.

 

I'm pretty sure I heard Silvestri's Black Widow theme.

 

Karol

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I'm gonna recollect my thoughts of this a little more. I'll certainly see it again before I get too intricate in my critique of it. But for now, I'll say this:

 

This was a very good movie...until the third act. I never saw a movie lose its sh*t like this during its resolution!

 

No, its not the worse thing evvverrrr - its not even a bad film - but damn!

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The first part of the film, which takes the time to very patiently show the aftermath of the snap - great. Its patient filmmaking, its got a sense of scale, there's still slivers of humour there. Terrific. The second part, where they very inventivelly use time travel to throw-back to the previous films - terrific. After the dour begining, the return to Marvel's comedic schtick was postivelly joyous.

 

Than came the climactic setpiece. Thanos bombs the Avengers' headquarters and a CGI-battle ensues in its ruins. It lacks character: its just a pile of rubble surrounded by smoke. It doesn't have the sense of stakes or the scale of the finale of either of the previous three Avengers movies, which always took place in a populated (and often well-established) location.

 

While the movie isn't too long, that setpiece sure as hell is. You can't maintain the energy of a climax for thirty-odd minutes. In order to do so, Thanos - sans the glove - got a serious power-up compared to the previous part. In Infinity War, Thor - wielding his new hammer - almost single-handedly killed him in an instant. Here, with both hammers, as well as Tony, Cap and (when she bothers to show up again) Captain Marvel - he fails to go anywhere near doing so.

 

Also, while I always liked the idea that Doctor Strange saw this eventuality and was acting upon that at the end of Infinity War, when he returns here he tells Tony of his vision of their triumph: "If I tell you how, it won't happen." What what is that Frodo said to Sam in the Two Towers? that even if you know how a story is going to end, you wouldn't want the characters - any of them - to know. It just saps the tension from the movie.

 

To not be overly harsh, some of the moments here are real movie moments: Denvers' arrival to the battlefield, the ressurection of those that have been evaporated, etcetra. Like I said, I don't mean to tear this movie apart: its not bad or anything, its just nowhere near what I want from this type of resolution.

 

So, returning to Thanos, here he very quickly comes to the conclusion that he better kill the other half of the universe's population. While in Infinity War he carried out his self-imposed duty dispassionately, here he declares to Steven that he's going to relish in destroying earth. He even steals Edward Longshanks tactic from Braveheart, by ordering a bombardment on the battlefield, killing both his troops and his foes (Except, of course, none of the good guys gets hit because you can't have too many deaths in a Marvel movie!). The film reduced a great villian to one which is a step shy from twirling his mustache.

 

The film saves some face in the denoument. There's a beautiful long-take that goes through all the characters, and Silvestri's score (which I like!) gets to shine through. But then it gives little codas to several of the individual heroes, in a way that feels less like The Return of the King (as @Thor depicted it) but more like setup for Phase 4, of which I haven't the intention to watch a single minute of film. I like Captain America's denoument, which sees the film out, though.

 

Enough with these Superhero movies!

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5 hours ago, Chen G. said:

none of the good guys gets hit because you can't have too many deaths in a Marvel movie!

You can't have too many deaths in the Marvel version of ROTJ.

Win a war against partial/total extermination of the galaxy and nearly no-one died? Wow. I guess Eisenhower, MacArthur and Zhukov were complete morons after all

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Just on my way home from it so very raw and immediate feelings.

 

I was almost bored for the first hour. A little too much misery for my taste, but the building of all that sadness felt earned at the end, and overall I thought it was a great film. It felt about 6 hours long though. I could see a good 30 minutes I would've cut but I get why they had to give closure and a strong story to all their characters, hence the length.

 

Cap is my favourite. I was expecting all the major ones to die. Nat's death was well done, as was Tony, but Caps was so perfect. The Silvestri Cap score and Peggy was all so well done. Highly emotional and a fantastic ending to his character being an old man who lived a good life. 

 

And Steve and Peggy finally had that dance. Damn you feelings!

 

 

I really enjoyed all the dialogue callbacks to over 10 years and 22 films ago. My favourite being Cap saying "don't do anything stupid while I'm gone."  and Bucky saying "how can I? You're taking all the stupid with you." Which is a reverse of dialogue of their exchange in the first captain america film. 

 

And a nice callback to the beginning of the MCU in 2008 when Thanos said "I am inevitable."

 

And Tony says "I am... Iron Man."

 

 

I actually got nerd goosebumps when all the avengers appeared through portals and I damn near cheered like an annoying asshole when cap said "Avengers...Assemble." I didn't think the film would get me that much in those moments. I even got goosebumps in that awful cringeworthy 'girl-power' moment where all the female avengers were weirdly and conveniently together at the same time.

 

And THANK YOU RUSSO'S for the way they handled Captain Marvel. She was brilliantly used. I was afraid they would ruin 10 years of build up of their core characters by just having her save the day, which would have discounted all the core avengers decade of struggle and growth, but thankfully they had her be powerful but also beatable when Thanos actually beat her back. And I enjoyed the few scenes with her overall.

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I don't intend to rain on someone's parade. I'm glad when people enjoy a movie. I do think the appearance of the ressurected was a good cinematic moment. However, I can't say that Captain Marvel is used all that well in the movie. She's basically in the beginning...disappears...reappears in the end. Deus ex-Marvelia.

 

That final battle was just all wrong for me! The denuement was better but still mixed.

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As far as score goes, there are an awful lot of call backs to Silvestri's previous MCU music...but I wasn't that frustrated by it...it sort of worked and made sense, even if there were some clear copy-and-paste jobs. I'm pretty sure a couple of scenes tracked in some battle music from Infinity War, and near the very end, an entire cue from the first Captain America.

 

It brought more themes back than any Marvel movie so far, although most only appeared once and I doubt would be noticed by the casual moviegoer.

 

The ones I remember are:

 

Silvestri's SHIELD, Avengers, and Black Widow themes from Avengers 1

Silvestri's Captain America theme (and a couple of cues in near entirety) and the Tesseract theme from Captain America 1

Silvestri's Thanos, "Porch" and "No More Surprises" themes and battle motif from Infinity War

Giacchino's Doctor Strange theme

Toprak's Captain Marvel theme

Beck's Ant-Man theme

 

It mostly sounded like it was redone by Silvestri though - not just tracked in from the original recordings bar a couple of instances.

 

I'm very curious to hear the soundtrack and how much truly "original" material there is. The big memorable "new" stuff is definitely going to be in the final third of the album.

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I haven't been a marvel fanboy at all over the years. I enjoy the films. About 50% I would say are good films and the rest just meh. No truly awful ones at all. But I have always liked Captain America as a character and Evans portrayal. If I look at his arc over Cap 1, 2, 3, and Avengers 1, 2, 3 and 4, then it really is fantastic storytelling. He has the most consistent and interesting story for me. And his resolution in Endgame was wonderful. I really liked that the finale to his story was the final scene of the film. 

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I actually loved the time travel. It was such a clever way - and so very Marvel in its playfulness - to throw back to the earlier films. While it was often humorous, it also had moments of gravity, with Thor and mum, Steven bumping into Peggy's office, Tony meeting his father.

 

The only part I didn't care for was the end. The formers films had CGI battles but they were more concise, took place in more interesting settings. Even the airport battle in Avengers 2.5 at least allowed the combatants to use the environment in the course of the struggle. Here, its just a field of rubble.

 

And the character of Thanos was all but undone here. Where he previously acted out of a (twisted) desire to preserve the universe, now he wants to destroy it; where he formerly performed this duty impassionatly, here he seems to relish in it; his attitude is different; he's suddenly much, much stronger, even though he lacks the gauntlet, and as a result the fight with him just seems to go on and on

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Yeah I see what you mean. I think after Infinity War, Thanos was fantastically written, but he suffered a little in Endgame in his motivations and overall story. And yes the battle should have been better staged. I also was a bit taken back by the extreme destruction of the Avengers facility, yet they all survived unharmed, even the non superpowered ones like Hawkeye. It was like a nuclear explosion haha and they were just a bit cut up.

 

I think the main reason why I really liked Endgame was 90% Captain America's story and I'm a sucker for meaningful, well written set-ups and payoffs, and Caps entire story in Endgame was one massive payoff. For example;

 

- He slightly moved Thor's Hammer in Age of Ultron, showing he might be worthy, and Thor noticed and got nervous. Then in Endgame, Cap can use the hammer, and Thor acknowledges it, saying he knew it would happen.

 

- In Cap 1, he promised Peggy they would go dancing, and in Endgame he fulfilled that promise.

 

- In Cap 1, as Bucky is leaving for war and leaving Steve behind, he says "don't do anything stupid while I'm away." And Steve replies "How can I? You're taking all the stupid with you." And in Endgame they say it again, but the dialogue is reversed as Cap leaves at the end.

 

- At the beginning of Winter Soldier, Cap says "on your left," to Falcon as he runs past him, and in Endgame as Falcon arrives with all the ressurected Avengers, he says "on your left," to Cap.

 

- And of course the set up of Falcon taking over from Cap throughout the films, and in Endgame he gives the shield to Falcon, making him Captain America.

 

There may be more I've not remembered yet.

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13 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

takes over a hour I believe to get to the time travel. They really should have started that earlier.

 

I don't necessarily mind that. Some films have done this very well: Braveheart takes over an hour to get the plot going, as does The Good, the Bad and the Ugly. Its unconventional enough of Marvel that - if nothing else - I like it on the grounds of being novel.

 

13 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

Black Widow's death felt completely inconsequential.

 

I like it. The film takes the time to reflect on it afterwards. Plus, its a nice contrast to Thanos killing Gommorah. His sorrow was such a token compared to the genuine grief of Hawkeye. There comes a point where any film needs to take a moral stance against its villain, and that's it for this movie.

 

13 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

  The ending battle is basically a giant CGI blur.

 

THANK YOU!

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2 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

I don't necessarily mind that. Some films have done this very well: Braveheart takes over an hour to get the plot going, as does The Good, the Bad and the Ugly. Its unconventional enough of Marvel that I like it on the grounds of being novel.

 

I don't mind setting up. I minded THIS setting up. I actually mostly watch European dramas so I am used to watching lengthy absolutely plot-less films but this really took a while to get going. Whatever was happening didn't seem all that interesting to me. I wouldn't say drama is a good strength of these writers or directors.

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The more I think of it, the more I'm split on Thanos' death in the film. On the one hand, its nice that he's killed by his own device (Tony snaps him from existence). On the other, a more physical death may well have been more satisfying.

 

I also think they wrote themselves into a corner with regards to the question of who deserves to exact vengenance upon Thanos? There are just too many candidates, from Tony (who actually gets the honours) to Scarlett Witch and Thor (who at least gets a crack at him) and to to Gammorah, Nebula, Drax and Star-Lord (who don't).

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52 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

what Cursed Child is to Harry Potter - officially sanctioned fan fiction written by the original creator but still fan fiction.

Well actually, CC is Jack Thorne, Rowling just nodded along and said "sure you can put my name on this trainwreck, it'll get you and me money".

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6 minutes ago, Holko said:

Well actually, CC is Jack Thorne, Rowling just nodded along and said "sure you can put my name on this trainwreck, it'll get you and me money".

 

She has an offical credit on it, has endorsed it and considers it canon. So I would say she shares in its authorship. And shares the blame for its preposterous script.

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1 hour ago, TheUlyssesian said:

- This is the cinematic equivalent of fan fiction. This is a big budget fan film. This is to the MCU what Cursed Child is to Harry Potter - officially sanctioned fan fiction written by the original creator but still fan fiction. This is happening a lot these days because pathetically people are increasingly admitting to being massive fans of their own work.

Could you elaborate more on this? I am puzzled ever since Red Letter Media bashed Rogue One for supposedly being this. And what is wrong with fan fiction to begin with?

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1 hour ago, crocodile said:

There was just simply nowhere to go with his motivation anyway.  

 

Yeah, I was afraid that this will happen ever since the ending of Infinity War. Thanos wasn't in Endgame a lot, until the climax, which is why it wasn't a problem for me up to that point. Then, the film just suddenly drops its sh*t.

 

Thanos' ship bursting through the portal and out of the compound (without anyone noticing, mind you) makes no spatial sense. Characters, including none-superpowered-ones, survive a HUGE explosion. Gammorah, who at this stage is very much loyal to Thanos, has a nearly-instant change of heart. Thanos' motivations are hugely devolved. The Heroes are made feeble by comparison. The battlefield itself is bland.

 

Maybe saying that its too long was not accurate, I'll grant you. I do intend to see the film a second time to fully appreciate its strengths and weaknesses. At any rate, its not what I want in a culmination such as this.

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That's all true, mate, but then you need to keep in mind that we're watching a franchise that evolved from a fairly believable story about a billionaire genius building an iron suit into this wild chase for magic stones, interdimensional hoopla and time travel. There's only so much logic and coherence that can be applied to this. ;)

 

Karol

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