Clone Army Theme from Star Wars: Episode II?

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

 

What is the official name of this theme? Some people think it is the same as Trade Federation March but it is not. CC doesn't name it in his review. I read the reviews at JWFAN main site but they did not really shed light on this theme.

 

I actually think this is one of the best "military" themes of the franchise. I might say even the best one - this is clearly better than trade federation march and better than the march of the resistance. But what is it called? I believe it wasn't actually played in the scene it was meant for but used instead used in Ep 3 when Anakin marches on the Jedi temple.

[pete 902]

It's from the track on the soundtrack called: Love Pledge and the Arena, if that's what you're asking.

 

I haven't heard of it being referred to as anything else. I haven't seen the film since it came out, but I always thought the cue was used for the scene its name describes.

 

Williams may have given it another name for his own use on cue sheets.

[mrbellamy 6,270]

Usually hear people call it The Arena or Jedi Temple March

[John 2,032]

To me it’s the Separatist March. 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

It's for the arena scene in Episode II and was then repurposed for clone-related scenes in Episode III. It was never meant to underscore anything with the clones as far as I know.

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

8 minutes ago, mrbellamy said:

Usually hear people call it The Arena or Jedi Temple March

 

I believe it is called The Arena in the published score.

 

3 minutes ago, Ghostbusters II said:

It's for the arena scene in Episode II and was then repurposed for clone-related scenes in Episode III. It was never meant to underscore anything with the clones as far as I know.

 

Exactly. So what do we call it? What the composer intended or what it came to represent - which is the clone army marching?

[Incanus 5,713]

Originally it was a set piece theme, a march to underscore the initial fight with the beasts in the arena in Episode II. Only when Lucas dropped it from the arena scene for the most part and then tracked a segment of it in RotS people came to associate with the clone army. I believe it didn't have any more far flung thematic meaning to it, sort of like the fugue march in Belly of the Steel Beast from The Last Crusade where Williams builds everything around the oppressive musical idea for the lumbering tank.

 

If you want to assign a name to it call it the Arena March or something similar as that was its original intention and it doesn't appear anywhere else as written by Williams.

[artguy360 1,842]

I remember having the OST for AOTC before seeing the movie. I listened to the music but didn't look at any track titles to avoid spoilers. When the arena track came on, I was convinced it was a Clone March theme, like the Imperial March. I was so excited! Then when I saw the movie, almost all of it was absent from the movie!

[Datameister 2,034]

Yeah, I'd say it's not a theme at all, at least in the leitmotivic film-score-y sense. It's the theme (in the classical sense) that's introduced and developed in that one single cue, and then Williams never touched it again. No official name, and it definitely wasn't written to represent the Clone Army. If it represented anything, it would be the three creatures released into the arena.

[Chen G. 3,940]

51 minutes ago, Datameister said:

I'd say it's not a theme at all, at least in the leitmotivic film-score-y sense. It's the theme (in the classical sense) that's introduced and developed in that one single cue

 

In other words, it may be a theme, but its not a recurring theme, outside of tracking.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

1 hour ago, Datameister said:

Yeah, I'd say it's not a theme at all, at least in the leitmotivic film-score-y sense. It's the theme (in the classical sense) that's introduced and developed in that one single cue, and then Williams never touched it again. No official name, and it definitely wasn't written to represent the Clone Army. If it represented anything, it would be the three creatures released into the arena.

 

Honestly, I think it's better if we just settle on it representing that a 70-something year-old man could still create music so rock-hard and ball-slamming. 

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Ask Your Doctor if Heartwood® is Right For You.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

Side effects may and often include successive priapisms.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

It's sort of like how the music from when Lando rescues Luke on the Millennium Falcon's elevator in ESB was reused for when they blow up the Death Star in ROTJ. It then became known as the Heroic Lando Motif, but was never intended as such. It wasn't even composed for ROTJ.

[Demodex 557]

2 hours ago, Ghostbusters II said:

It's sort of like how the music from when Lando rescues Luke on the Millennium Falcon's elevator in ESB was reused for when they blow up the Death Star in ROTJ. It then became known as the Heroic Lando Motif, but was never intended as such. It wasn't even composed for ROTJ.

 

What?!  Is this real?  I never noticed this!!

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

I recall this being heard in The Arena (from Attack of the Clones), as well as The Battle of Kashyyyk and March on the Jedi Temple (from Revenge of the Sith). The AotC cue is on the OST, the two RotS are not but have been demoed and sourced plenty of places.

[Holko 9,491]

RotS just lazily tracks and loops The Arena twice.

[Chen G. 3,940]

It does work for the attack on the temple, though.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

I remember watching Revenge of the Sith in high school as a parallel to Macbeth, and when that scene happened, a friend of mine said, "The music's not even in sync with their footsteps!"

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I have a theory that if it had been unknown that bit was recorded for Episode II, no one would have had an issue with it in Episode III.

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

1 minute ago, Ghostbusters II said:

I have a theory that if it had been unknown that bit was recorded for Episode II, no one would have had an issue with it in Episode III.

 

No one has an issue. The music works well for the scene. But the divorcing from the original context leaves it free-floating in a way. So that we don't know what the music is supposed to represent.

[Demodex 557]

It doesn't really represent anything. 

[Nick Parker 3,040]

8 minutes ago, Ghostbusters II said:

I have a theory that if it had been unknown that bit was recorded for Episode II, no one would have had an issue with it in Episode III.

 

I never could figure out how I felt about it, as far as the tone.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

11 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

No one has an issue. The music works well for the scene. But the divorcing from the original context leaves it free-floating in a way. So that we don't know what the music is supposed to represent.

 

People have been complaining about the music in that scene since the movie opened.

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

3 minutes ago, Ghostbusters II said:

 

People have been complaining about the music in that scene since the movie opened.

 

Oh I didn't know that. For what's it worth, it works well enough.

 

What problem did people have?

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I think they were expecting something thematic or at least in sync with their march for such a pivotal moment.

[Holko 9,491]

Also maybe I just know the actual piece well enough, but during the Jedi Temple part it's pretty damn obvious it just loops back to play the same recording of the same segment as 10 seconds ago.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Ken Wannberg's editing there isn't the greatest.

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

2 hours ago, Demodex said:

It doesn't really represent anything. 

It's just the badass go-to march of the later part of the trilogy.

[Tom 4,631]

At this stage in my life, how a theme is used in a movie or what it is supposed to represent doesn't affect my appreciation of it as music.  This is a standout piece, for what it is (a one-off march lacking development).

 

While we are on the topic of my first point, it is the same with something like the Adventures of Mutt--I really do not care if the theme "fits" the character.  It is a fun piece on its own musical merits.  The movies are a means to JW composing the music for me (and, I suppose, others) to enjoy listening to.  

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

2 hours ago, Ghostbusters II said:

I think they were expecting something thematic or at least in sync with their march for such a pivotal moment.

 

It IS thematic! It is actually one of the best themes in the prequel trilogy (soundtracks)!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

You're just not getting it. They were expecting, say, a grisly rendition of the Force theme or The Imperial March.

[Fabulin 3,506]

.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

JW never even got a shot at it.

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

He did not get any shot. This is tracked music anyways. If Lucas wanted to track in Imperial March he could have done it. There was nothing in the world preventing him from doing so.

[Fabulin 3,506]

.

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

I have no opinion about that. I was just addressing Ghostbusters' point that there could easily have been any other music in that scene. And that the music they used worked just fine if only for the fact that otherwise that magnificent theme might have gone unused in the movies.

[Datameister 2,034]

23 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

It IS thematic! It is actually one of the best themes in the prequel trilogy (soundtracks)!

 

So for you, the word "theme" (in a film score setting) can refer to any melody that's heard more than once, even if it's only used in a single cue? That sure would make for a lot of themes, most of which would have really awkward and arbitrary names. It also doesn't distinguish between a melody that's heard two or three times in a particular scene and a melody that's heard dozens of times over the course of a film series. It seems to me that those are qualitatively different things, don't you think?

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Well, a theme is not necessarily the same thing as a leitmotif.  A theme can be a melody developed in a single cue, and never used again.  By the same token, it doesn't necessarily have to be representative in the same way that a leitmotif is.

 

In classical music discussion the word "theme" is used quite often in place of melody or tune.

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

17 minutes ago, Datameister said:

 

So for you, the word "theme" (in a film score setting) can refer to any melody that's heard more than once, even if it's only used in a single cue? That sure would make for a lot of themes, most of which would have really awkward and arbitrary names. It also doesn't distinguish between a melody that's heard two or three times in a particular scene and a melody that's heard dozens of times over the course of a film series. It seems to me that those are qualitatively different things, don't you think?

 

I absolutely believe in single sequence themes. Themes which are used for only a single sequence. Bear in mind, some of these things are not film-score related but film structure related. Say if a composer wrote a beautiful theme for a concept or object or character in a scene, and the narrative requires that concept or object or character to only appear in a single scene, that doesn't mean it is not a theme. E.T.'s aria in the finale only plays in the finale. Star Wars lyrical there for the award ceremony only plays there. The Jedi Steps theme within the context of TFA plays for a single location in a single short track. Aunt Marge Waltz plays in a single sequence. Are they not themes. There are several such examples including several in classic films.

 

I would say if a melody is repeated more than once, it already has the claim to be a motif or leitmotif or theme. If it is emphatically presented multiple times during a single sequence then it is a theme for sure.

[Incanus 5,713]

Well when talking about themes in Star Wars I immediately think of leitmotifs not broad single scene covering development of a melodic line. So you can say the music for the arena is a theme for the setpiece but I would not consider it leitmotivic in a sense that this theme would carry over to subsequent scenes with specific dramatic meaning in terms of the larger drama which is largely applied to a single recurring story element like a character, object, idea etc.

[Datameister 2,034]

5 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

I absolutely believe in single sequence themes. Themes which are used for only a single sequence. Bear in mind, some of these things are not film-score related but film structure related. Say if a composer wrote a beautiful theme for a concept or object or character in a scene, and the narrative requires that concept or object or character to only appear in a single scene, that doesn't mean it is not a theme. E.T.'s aria in the finale only plays in the finale. Star Wars lyrical there for the award ceremony only plays there. The Jedi Steps theme within the context of TFA plays for a single location in a single short track. Aunt Marge Waltz plays in a single sequence. Are they not themes. There are several such examples including several in classic films.

 

I would say if a melody is repeated more than once, it already has the claim to be a motif or leitmotif or theme. If it is emphatically presented multiple times during a single sequence then it is a theme for sure.

 

That's really interesting...definitely a very different view from mine, since I would never dream of referring to your examples as themes. But thanks for sharing your contrasting viewpoint.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

54 minutes ago, Datameister said:

 

That's really interesting...definitely a very different view from mine, since I would never dream of referring to your examples as themes. But thanks for sharing your contrasting viewpoint.

 

I normally don't spend a lot of mental energy on this subject, but what would you consider the music for the Cross of Coronado and Panama Hat in The Last Crusade, Joe? Yeah there's a time jump, but it's all a part of the Indy prologue and technically one sequence. 

[Holko 9,491]

I consider it a theme/leitmotif if it gets played multiple times and develops or just differs throughout, preferably in different contexts. The Coronado motif is a part of the same setpiece and never appears again, but pops up and gets varied a lot in that setpiece. This Arena fanfare is actually just a throwaway opening to The Arena and never gets used again even within the same piece if I recall correctly, instead there's a B part in there which gets good enough development.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

5 minutes ago, Holko said:

This Arena fanfare is actually just a throwaway opening to The Arena and never gets used again even within the same piece if I recall correctly, instead there's a B part in there which gets good enough development.

 

If we're talking about the melody at the start of The Arena, it appears multiple times throughout the track.

[Holko 9,491]

Oh yeah, the B I thought of is actually the opening. The fanfaresque bit that was tracked into RotS and is the topic of this thread is what I meant that does not appear again.

[Incanus 5,713]

26 minutes ago, Nick Parker said:

 

I normally don't spend a lot of mental energy on this subject, but what would you consider the music for the Cross of Coronado and Panama Hat in The Last Crusade, Joe? Yeah there's a time jump, but it's all a part of the Indy prologue and technically one sequence. 

Both of those musical ideas appear in the self-contained introduction sequence and have a very specific association with the both the cross McGuffin and the bad guy so I would consider those leitmotivically themes even if they appear only in this relatively short little adventure of their own. 

[Holko 9,491]

That 15 minute sequence is like its own mini-score, like a short film! Most Bond openings only have the climax of such a mini-story.

[Chen G. 3,940]

4 hours ago, Incanus said:

when talking about themes in Star Wars I immediately think of leitmotifs, not broad single scene covering development of a melodic line.

 

There's the distinction, though.

 

A Theme can describe any self-contained piece of music attached to a particular object, idea, setpiece, etcetra. 

 

A recurring theme, i.e. a leitmotif is one which needs to recur at least one more time in a completely different part of the score; and it needs to be something substantial and intentional. Not just a generic chord that inevitably reappears as part of the overall style of the score. It needs to mean something.

[Datameister 2,034]

8 hours ago, Nick Parker said:

 

I normally don't spend a lot of mental energy on this subject, but what would you consider the music for the Cross of Coronado and Panama Hat in The Last Crusade, Joe? Yeah there's a time jump, but it's all a part of the Indy prologue and technically one sequence. 

 

That's an interesting case, isn't it? I tend to think of those as themes, I suppose. They certainly have very clear leitmotivic function. Like Holko said, the vibe is that we're seeing the end of a story throughout which those themes have been consistently used. (Plus they're both used in multiple cues, technically speaking. )

 

Chen G, I'm not a big fan of the sort of terminology you're proposing. It implies that what you are simply calling a theme is not recurring, when in fact the only reason we're discussing it at all is the fact that it does recur - just not outside one particular cue. A leitmotif is a "recurring theme" in the same sense that a Pomeranian is a "canine dog" - technically true, but, like...is there any kind of dog that's not canine? 

 

Just my take!