Popular Post SteveMc 2,674 Posted May 22, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 22, 2019 Inspired by @Loert's thread on "The Map Room: Dawn," I wanted to ask if there are any particular examples orchestration being used to kind of mask dissonances in John's music. Often, you get the sense that his music is considered very straightforward, even "pop" by many for it's listenability, accessibility, and melodic recognizability, but, when you listen closely, and espeiclly when you hear a piano reduction, for example, the striking harmonic invention and complexity behind this facade, if you will, becomes apparent. It is almost as if John has achieved the perfect synthesis between romantic traditions and modernist developments in music. How big a role does this idea of orchestration used to mask dissonance, which was brought up in the aforementioned thread, play in all of this? Loert, Will, Locrius and 4 others 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Datameister 2,041 Posted May 22, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 22, 2019 You've neatly summarized one of my favorite things about the music of John Williams. You get these passages where there's a fairly clear, fairly simple harmonic structure - sometimes even verging on "pop" in its flavor, as you said - but it's spiced up by some funky dissonances. And it's a well-known fact that dissonances tend to be less obvious when split between different octaves and/or different timbres. Williams especially likes to do this with the bassline...throw some pretty straightforward chord progressions into the middle registers, but write a conflicting bassline beneath, sometimes even a minor second or a tritone away from the root. It's a great way of building tension - and then of course releasing it when you come to a more straightforward tonality. I love it when he does this as part of a big crescendo or build-up - consider the final seconds of the first Battle of Yavin cue, right before the contrapuntal Force theme passage in the brass. Another good example is the moment before the beginning of the bike chase in E.T. SteveMc, The Illustrious Jerry, Jacck and 4 others 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Loert 2,511 Posted May 22, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 22, 2019 It's interesting that you talk about Williams "masking" dissonances, as if Williams was trapped into employing dissonances which he then tried to cover up by choosing the right instruments (probably not what you meant, but it sounds that way!). Of course, the opposite is really true - Williams mixes in the dissonance himself. However, rather than drawing attention on those very dissonances (as, for example, Boulez might...or "concert" JW might) he tends to treat dissonance as something like musical seasoning; to spice up what would otherwise be fairly dull, consonant music. One of the ways he does this is to do what sounds like "covering up" dissonance using the orchestra, which I guess is what you allude to. But, of course, this is just an illusion really. Every note you hear comes from the composer's pen, whether or not in the end they sound as if they are appearing out of nowhere, or as an "accident". So what is JW's favourite spice? When it comes to brass, It is undeniably the minor 2nd interval between the 7th and 8th degrees of the scale (i.e. B-C in C major). JW would sooner jump off a bridge than not use this dissonance in a fanfare. Listen to the one that plays when Yoda raises the ship in TESB, which is in E major: Now, somebody with an "untrained ear" might be surprised to know that when they are listening to the above, they are also listening to this: https://picosong.com/whnva These are the 7th and 8th degrees of the E major scale: D#-E. JW uses a lot of this sort of dissonance in the E.T. flying theme (in C major): Listening to this, one might naively think that the accompanying horns at the start are playing simple major chords (C-E-G, or 1st, 3rd and 5th degrees). But in fact, they are playing "add2" chords, i.e. chords with the 2nd degree added (D), so there is a dissonance between the C-D and the D-E. Later on, JW employs his beloved 7th-8th dissonance, at 0:20 (F#-G) and 0:25 (G-Ab). These dissonances on their own sound like they belong to a horror movie, not a feel-good family movie (though I grant that E.T. does contain some horrifying bits...). But when played by the brass in a certain range, these dissonances take on more of a "colouring" function, and you might miss these dissonances if you don't pay attention. However, take away these dissonances, and you take away an integral part of the whole. This is what I mean by JW using dissonances as "seasoning". Now for something entirely different. Listen to the prologue music of HP1, when Dumbledore does...whatever he does: Listen to that last chord at 1:15. Can you hear "it"? I made a mockup of this portion some years ago, where "it"'s clearer; listen to the high register from 0:17: https://picosong.com/whnWd Williams here is using the winds to apply a purely "colouristic" effect to the brass chord in the foreground. This is what the wind chord sounds like on the piano: https://picosong.com/whnvw This is what the brass chord sounds like on the piano: https://picosong.com/whnv3 By the way, Williams here is essentially recycling a technique he used in another film, TPM, where he used a similar wind chord. However, that time he used it in a much more dramatic manner, less as a purely colouristic effect (listen to the chord at 3:28 and pay attention to the high register): Finally, I want to go off the track a bit (though I hope it's still relevant) and close with some music from another composer who was a master at "masking" dissonances via orchestration, a composer who greatly influenced Williams and other Hollywood composers - namely, Korngold. His opera "Das Wunder der Heliane" closes with the two lovers making their way into heaven through the pearly gates, being welcomed by the sound of singing angels. But if you listen to it, there's a distinctly bittersweet tone coming from the orchestra: It's almost like the angels merely represent a "sheen" of something that is filled with sadness and sorrow. The reason is that the orchestral accompaniment is in fact full of dissonances - try playing some of those chords which fall on the downbeat. There are instances earlier in the opera where Korngold plays a major chord on top of a minor chord, though it's barely audible the way he orchestrates it. Jacck, rough cut, karelm and 14 others 11 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,511 Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Loert 2,511 Posted May 22, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 22, 2019 14 hours ago, Datameister said: Williams especially likes to do this with the bassline...throw some pretty straightforward chord progressions into the middle registers, but write a conflicting bassline beneath, sometimes even a minor second or a tritone away from the root. There's a fun experiment you can do with this at the piano. Play a major or minor chord in the right hand e.g. C major or C minor. Now, in the left hand, put your hand on a major or minor chord one semitone above and one semitone below the right hand. So, for instance, with C major in the right hand, you place your left hand on B major or Db major. Now pick one of the notes in your two left hand chords. This is now your bass note - play it with the chord in the right hand (so e.g. C major in RH, with D# in the bass from the B major chord). Now do this multiple times for different chords. Voila! You have become John Williams. That_Bloke, Jacck, _deleted_ and 5 others 2 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc 2,674 Posted May 22, 2019 Author Share Posted May 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Loert said: It's interesting that you talk about Williams "masking" dissonances, as if Williams was trapped into employing dissonances which he then tried to cover up by choosing the right instruments (probably not what you meant, but it sounds that way!). Yeah, I did mean the opposite! Not like criminal or hooligan masks, more like the masks at a Venetian carnival. Adds to the flavour, as you say. John obviously does not want to hide it, but to integrate it in such a way that it seamlessly becomes part of the overall texture. In other words, that synthesis I referred to. Loert and _deleted_ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 Would this be an example, all the action going on around the Love Theme? @1:25 onward SteveMc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post karelm 2,912 Posted May 23, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 23, 2019 Williams should write a book about harmony. I know some will distill him down to dominant 7ths, majmin 7, flat 6, polytonal, quartal, etc., but he is so much more sophisticated than that. For example, his chord progressions are unique. I'll bet we all immediately recognize the attached audio as classic JW and probably the exact scene it's from. His sophisticated harmony is absolutely one of my favorite qualities about him and is sorely missed in just about any other current film composer. Example.mp3 This also demonstrates another topic, Williams' sophisticated dramaturgy (his musical sense of telling a dramatic story over time). One important aspect of harmony is subverting expectations. For instance, a theme is first heard very consonant (harmonically pleasing) or diatonic (within a key) but later, for dramatic purposes, there are "wrong" notes or notes that are outside the key/dissonant. Knowing where and how to do this well is very hard to learn/teach. _deleted_, Fabulin, Ludwig and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,511 Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 . Arpy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post karelm 2,912 Posted May 23, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 23, 2019 8 minutes ago, Fabulin said: I find it such a pity that very few great artists, whether composers, writers, or otherwise, decide to preserve their unique discoveries and insights to any meaningful extent. It applies to all fields. Someone who is great at what they do doesn't necessarily translate to being great at illuminating/communicating/educating others. Our @Loert and @Ludwig are especially gifted at it but JW might not be. The astronauts who walked on the moon were quite bad at describing what that experience was like. Arguably the most articulate astronaut was Mike Collins (Apollo 11) who said he couldn't really describe what it was like to go to the moon. "I think the view from 100,000 miles could be invaluable in getting people together to work out joint solutions, by causing them to realize that the planet we share unites us in a way far more basic and far more important than differences in skin color or religion or economic system. The pity of it is that so far, the view from 100,000 miles has been the exclusive property of a handful of test pilots, rather than the world leaders who need this new perspective, or the poets who might communicate it to them." - Mike Collins, 1972. _deleted_, MikeH, DarthDementous and 2 others 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,041 Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 4 hours ago, Loert said: There's a fun experiment you can do with this at the piano. Play a major or minor chord in the right hand e.g. C major or C minor. Now, in the left hand, put your hand on a major or minor chord one semitone above and one semitone below the right hand. So, for instance, with C major in the right hand, you place your left hand on B major or Db major. Now pick one of the notes in your two left hand chords. This is now your bass note - play it with the chord in the right hand (so e.g. C major in RH, with D# in the bass from the B major chord). Now do this multiple times for different chords. Voila! You have become John Williams. It's funny because it's true. 😂 That's one of his "tried and true" techniques. Bonus points if the bassline and/or the roots of the chords follow a diminished scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ricsim88 244 Posted May 23, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 23, 2019 I guess that’s where his jazz background comes into play. _deleted_, Jediwashington and Jacck 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc 2,674 Posted May 23, 2019 Author Share Posted May 23, 2019 22 hours ago, Arpy said: Would this be an example, all the action going on around the Love Theme? @1:25 onward I would say that it is a little more straightforward here. The dissonance is meant to be noticed, in contrast to and apart from the texture of the theme. The Illustrious Jerry 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oomoog the Ecstatic 314 Posted May 25, 2019 Share Posted May 25, 2019 In other words John Williams isn't lazy with orchestration unlike the majority. Many pieces have been written where every note of the scale is always used, but you don't quite notice these notes--you notice the overall textures that the composer forms by emphasizing certain intervals and their interchanges to relative harmonies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted May 26, 2019 Share Posted May 26, 2019 9 hours ago, Borodin said: In other words John Williams isn't lazy with orchestration unlike the majority. Is it laziness or lack of skill? Jediwashington 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oomoog the Ecstatic 314 Posted May 26, 2019 Share Posted May 26, 2019 5 hours ago, Stefancos said: Is it laziness or lack of skill? General lack of respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Fabulin 3,511 Posted May 27, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 27, 2019 . The Illustrious Jerry, _deleted_, SteveMc and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,055 Posted June 9, 2019 Share Posted June 9, 2019 On 5/27/2019 at 2:41 AM, EugeneHill said: I think it is great that we can listen to such music alive and from our gadgets! After reading https://filmlifestyle.com/best-sci-fi-books/ I was reassured in such thesis and admired it greatly! Yeah, I prefer to be alive while listening to music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 On 5/27/2019 at 10:49 AM, Fabulin said: There is no bigger dissonance than the existence of Guitar Williams! Jurassic Shark and SteveMc 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,055 Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 Oh no, The Masked Dissonance! SteveMc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 'I would've got away with it if it weren't for you meddling JWFans!' Fabulin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jar Jar 28 Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 Hi guys, i am studying Fawkes the phoenix and I have found a pretty dissonance. The bridge at 1’06 is sounding very pleasing. However by analysing it, it’s strong dissonants polychords. During the 2 bars sequence (repeated twice before the modulation), the lower register plays a AMajadd2 chord (A B C# E) followed by a DMaj7\F# and back to the Amajadd2. On the upper register we got other chords: a quartal B : B C# E F# which marvelously matches the Amajadd2 à la Debussy. Then it moves to B7\A which is really dissonant on the piano vs the DMaj7 followed by a F#min7 which is ok vs the Amajadd2. But I am amazed how it sounds good on the track but so dissonant when playing thd B7 vs the D7 at the piano. What do you think about it ? SteveMc and Will 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,912 Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 On 30/06/2019 at 6:21 AM, Jar Jar said: Hi guys, i am studying Fawkes the phoenix and I have found a pretty dissonance. The bridge at 1’06 is sounding very pleasing. However by analysing it, it’s strong dissonants polychords. During the 2 bars sequence (repeated twice before the modulation), the lower register plays a AMajadd2 chord (A B C# E) followed by a DMaj7\F# and back to the Amajadd2. On the upper register we got other chords: a quartal B : B C# E F# which marvelously matches the Amajadd2 à la Debussy. Then it moves to B7\A which is really dissonant on the piano vs the DMaj7 followed by a F#min7 which is ok vs the Amajadd2. But I am amazed how it sounds good on the track but so dissonant when playing thd B7 vs the D7 at the piano. What do you think about it ? A lovely gem of a cue. Gentle dissonances can be quite beautiful. Just adding a little spice to the harmony. Some of the reasons why it works so effortlessly here, is he's established the pattern right away because it opens in A major in low flutes (a very mellow register compared to their brilliance as they ascend), then goes to F# major where a solo oboe sits on A so you have a minor second rub with the A# (from F# major) and A natural in the oboe at balanced dynamics. The oboe at this register is more poignant than aggressive so these clashes are gentle. So throughout the pieces, JW is using gentle harmonic rubs. At 1:06, that is part of a sequence as we hear the same melodic phrase then it modulates to a bridge but again, he's set up the expectation of this from the start. Quiet dissonances are all over Debussy's La Mer too and you can hear some of the same ideas: Lots of octatonics and harmonies that might not match the melody. Here is another beautiful example from the repertoire. Prokofiev is known for thorny dissonances but listen how beautiful and magical it is here, coincidentally at the same place as Fawkes the Phoenix, at 1:06, the mysterious and magical theme in it's second bar has B natural and A# while the winds are sustaining a C major chord. Just another example that just because it is dissonant, doesn't make it ugly to hear. It can be gorgeous. SteveMc and Will 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jediwashington 59 Posted July 1, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted July 1, 2019 On 5/22/2019 at 8:55 PM, ricsim88 said: I guess that’s where his jazz background comes into play. Yes - 100% this. He simply writes for orchestra like big bands. The chord complexity you can certainly analyze from a romantic theory standpoint, but it is much stronger of an argument to simply call him a jazz pianist and composer. That being said, I would put him near the top in jazz pianists/theorists, but for a jazz pianist you are mostly using chords to drive interest/complexity/mood/color/shape and less concerned about the individual notes. He's collected hundreds of progressions and modulations over his years that communicate certain moods/emotions and he just uses them at will like a language when writing. One of the other things you will notice about jazz is that they tend to set up a type of dissonance like it's a standard part of that key "world" so to speak. They will then selectively increase or decrease dissonance for effect. You see applied everywhere in E.T. where he essentially writes the whole thing in lydian and keeps the raised 4th and 7th the whole score writing 7th or 9th chords constantly, but pulls back into straight triads in minor keys for the antagonist theme (to great effect!) and increases dissonance and stacked chords to their breaking point leading into big moments. This constant slight dissonance of 7ths/9th allows him to go in two directions and subtlety move to a different mood quickly with lots of options where other composers may struggle to get there as tastefully. It's probably why he likes the ambiguity of open 5ths in melodies so much. He's intelligent enough to go back and analyze it and write all this out in a book, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was actually a very difficult exercise for him to do since romantic harmony is not likely to be where his mind is when writing. Now, the core question is if he uses orchestration selectively to increase/decrease dissonance. I would say he's gotten better at this as his career progressed and he finesses this a lot more after the Boston Pops years. He speaks of those years as being highly educational from an orchestration stand point. After mastering harmony, melody, and tone centers to create emotions, this has certainly been an area where I see a lot more sophistication the more he writes - especially with his doubling's. I can also usually tell when he's passed something off to be orchestrated by someone else. We can't neglect his ears and taste for balance during recording sessions as well. Recordings done by different conductors or even his own scores recorded by someone else can sound like completely different pieces with less important notes popping out of the texture. Will, Fabulin, Loert and 2 others 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,055 Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 3 hours ago, Jediwashington said: He's intelligent enough to go back and analyze it and write all this out in a book, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was actually a very difficult exercise for him to do since romantic harmony is not likely to be where his mind is when writing. Cue @Ludwig or @Falstaft? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Five Tones 302 Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 Really interesting thread. Dissonance is rarely defined very well - in a precise, technical way - by any commentator. I don't personally find basic intervals like diatonic seconds dissonant, or even the kinds of bitonal polychords JW often writes, though they are often heard/spoken of that way. There are probably dozens of definitions to consider, including ones that take pitch/frequency perception into account. Also, accidental dissonance as a result of voicings, mixing, etc. or horizontal dissonance as opposite to just vertical. A historical view on dissonance, i.e. very few examples and almost no bodies of work before 1910 (except say Charles Ives) are dissonant in terms of harmonic language, as opposed to textbook dissonance a la species counterpoint. Certainly JW could be said to hit the mark on many different potential definitions of dissonance, as a passing effect of generally short duration. Also, JW is an incredible harmonist; however, I often wish his harmonic language as expressed in his film cues was not so full of tonic major endings/climaxes as they are often inappropriate to the mood or direction of the harmony or at least restrict the potential effect of all the complexity that precedes them. I don't know; I've been listening to him since the mid-70s and maybe I haven't taken the time to think about this point another way. But he seems to treat these cadences as generally off limits for dissonance. Jediwashington 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,041 Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 On 7/2/2019 at 9:04 AM, The Five Tones said: Really interesting thread. Dissonance is rarely defined very well - in a precise, technical way - by any commentator. I don't personally find basic intervals like diatonic seconds dissonant, or even the kinds of bitonal polychords JW often writes, though they are often heard/spoken of that way. There are probably dozens of definitions to consider, including ones that take pitch/frequency perception into account. Also, accidental dissonance as a result of voicings, mixing, etc. or horizontal dissonance as opposite to just vertical. A historical view on dissonance, i.e. very few examples and almost no bodies of work before 1910 (except say Charles Ives) are dissonant in terms of harmonic language, as opposed to textbook dissonance a la species counterpoint. Certainly JW could be said to hit the mark on many different potential definitions of dissonance, as a passing effect of generally short duration. Also, JW is an incredible harmonist; however, I often wish his harmonic language as expressed in his film cues was not so full of tonic major endings/climaxes as they are often inappropriate to the mood or direction of the harmony or at least restrict the potential effect of all the complexity that precedes them. I don't know; I've been listening to him since the mid-70s and maybe I haven't taken the time to think about this point another way. But he seems to treat these cadences as generally off limits for dissonance. That's an interesting perspective there in the second paragraph. Do you have any particular examples that feel inappropriate to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Five Tones 302 Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Datameister said: On 7/2/2019 at 12:04 PM, The Five Tones said: Also, JW is an incredible harmonist; however, I often wish his harmonic language as expressed in his film cues was not so full of tonic major endings/climaxes as they are often inappropriate to the mood or direction of the harmony or at least restrict the potential effect of all the complexity that precedes them. I don't know; I've been listening to him since the mid-70s and maybe I haven't taken the time to think about this point another way. But he seems to treat these cadences as generally off limits for dissonance. That's an interesting perspective there in the second paragraph. Do you have any particular examples that feel inappropriate to you? Gosh, it could potentially be a long list, and if/when I had the time I would probably start a thread to explore the idea. Let me define inappropriate as something reflecting my personal perceptual and aesthetic response to the music, but also in respect of classical tonality. Leaving aside many examples in OSTs/concert suites, it would generally be in shorter cues where the harmony is meaningfully removed from an overt tonic-dominant trajectory, where a tonic major final chord feels contrived, or at least a repetitive use of a Romantic era convention. It feels less jarring when the ending is less audible as a tonic major as opposed to just a tonic root/octaves, whether due to voicings or a piano/pianissimo dynamic. Or when, there is an added dissonance (here we go again) such as a flat supertonic degree (or triad built on same). I am definitely not speaking of the big endings, either, whether of the entire score or a key moment like Battle of Yavin. In those cases, the need for a sense of resolution is clearer. Let me put it another way than "inappropriate" - I often wish there were a more inventive or ambiguous chord/sonority JW could end such a cue on while still providing a sense of finality to the cue, rather than a formal resolution. As though he didn't have to cut his vivid harmonic imagination off at that moment. I'll definitely give some thought as to what are some of the best examples for me, though. On the other hand, here's a great example of where a tonic minor chord or unison might've been the obvious conclusion, but JW leaves off on a suspended fourth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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