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2019: Most wanted Deluxe Edition treatment for a Jerry Goldsmith score by Varese Sarabande?

Most wanted Deluxe Edition treatment for a Jerry Goldsmith score by Varese Sarabande?  

17 members have voted

  1. 1. What Jerry Goldsmith titles owned by Varese Sarabande in perpetuity would you like to see expanded next? Chose three scores!

    • Our Man Flint/In Like Flint (1966/1967) => no CD release yet
      1
    • The Mephisto Waltz (1971) => missing overlays
      1
    • The Other (1972) => approx. 25 minutes unreleased
      3
    • Mom and Dad Save the World (1991) => approx. 15 minutes unreleased
      0
    • Medicine Man (1992) => approx. 15 minutes unreleased
      3
    • Mr. Baseball (1992)
      0
    • Love Field (1993) => approx. 20 minutes unreleased
      2
    • Malice (1993) => approx. 5 minutes unreleased
      0
    • Matinee (1993) => approx. 15 minutes unreleased
      1
    • Rudy (1993) => approx. 20 minutes unreleased
      2
    • Angie (1994)
      0
    • City Hall (1996) => approx. 10 minutes unreleased
      0
    • Air Force One (1997) => approx. 50 minutes unreleased
      13
    • L.A. Confidential (1997) => approx. 10 minutes unreleased
      2
    • U.S. Marshals (1998) => approx. 35 minutes unreleased
      3
    • The 13th Warrior (1999) => approx. 20 minutes unreleased
      5
    • Hollow Man (2000) => approx. 25 minutes unreleased
      4
    • Along Came a Spider (2001) => approx. 25 minutes unreleased
      0
    • Looney Tunes: Back in Action (2003) => approx. 25 minutes unreleased
      1
    • Timeline (2003) => approx. 30 minutes unreleased
      0


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Things got incredibly promising, regarding expansions of the Jerry Goldsmith titles that Varese Sarabande holds in perpetuity:

 

  1. "Leviathan", "The Final Conflict" and "Lionheart" were confirmed not to be owned by VS in perpetuity.
  2. In recent times, VS gave us at least one outstanding JG expansion every year.
  3. They also announced to release three CD Club batches per year and that they will now focus particularly on Deluxe Editions.
  4. The recent collaboration between La-La Land and VS on "Planet of the Apes" suggests new ways for perpetuity titles to get expanded.

 

Now there's not that much left for Varese, since many titles left the list since 2015 as you can see:

 

  1. "Gremlins 2: The New Batch", "Chain Reaction", "Executive Decision", "The Omen", "The Haunting", "Small Soldiers" and "Raggedy Man" => expanded by VS
  2. "Leviathan", "The Final Conflict" and "Lionheart" => turned out not to be owned by VS in perpetuity
  3. "Criminal Law" and "Fierce Creature" => turned out to be complete already
  4. "Planet of the Apes" and "Escape from the Planet of the Apes" => expanded by another label

 

That is 14 titles less on the VS-JG-wishlist, which means that only 20 titles are left. So what would you like to see expanded by them next?

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For me, it's Love Field, The Other, and Medicine Man. Mom and Dad Save the World and the Flint twofer (even though that's kinda cheating, haha) round out my top 5 wants.

 

I want Air Force One but there's already a great sounding footwarmer available for that one so it's less of an urgent need for me. :) I'm not a huge fan of U.S. Marshals, but there is no such alternative avenue for that score, so I'm actually much more excited in an expansion for it than AFO. Also in the boat with AFO: The 13th Warrior, Timeline, Looney Tunes, Along Came a Spider, and I think Hollow Man due to the isolated score track on DVD...same goes for Rudy and L.A. Confidential there, too...but of course those DVD iso tracks were not lossless, so I still very much want expanded CD releases of those. Expanded footwarmers do exist for Matinee and Mom and Dad Save the World, but they sound so-so and terrible, respectively. So expanded editions are a must, there. And while The Other and both Flint scores were both given lossless iso score tracks on the Twilight Time Blu-ray releases, they contained microedits that even omitted some of the music Varese released on CD back in the 90s, so we still need definitive complete CD releases of both of those, as well. Maybe Varese will license the Flints twofer to LLL, now!

BTW, Brundlefly -- LLL didn't really expand either Goldsmith Apes score; Varese had already released them complete and it seems no other alternates (such as those re-recorded by Jack O'Callaghan) were actually recorded at the original sessions, or LLL would surely have included them in this set. I think they will simply feature a major sound improvement, as the Varese edition of the original didn't even sound as good as the previous Intrada expansion of that score. Jeff Bond also revealed that certain overlays which were missing on the Varese are fixed, here...so in that sense I guess they were incomplete (just not in terms of time/missing cues):

  Quote

So here's one of my favorite projects to work on, ever--and it's only the first of this year from this label! Jerry Goldsmith's brilliant Planet of the Apes, FINALLY done correctly with every overlay and echoplex where it should be thanks to Neil S. Bulk and Mike Matessino, and sounding stellar--along with all the other original Ape movie scores, complete and in fantastic sound (and lovingly designed by Dan Goldwasser). Michael V Gerhard mentioned wanting to do this something like 10 years ago if not longer, and now it's finally here, so get your stinking paws on it! Not only is it a fantastic honor to work on La-La Land Record's 500th release, but my very first liner notes gig was for the 1997 Varese release of Planet of the Apes--so this marks an anniversary for me too...

  Quote
  Quote

This edition is comprehensive, but I have always found the sound quality to be wanting. I thought that perhaps the 1968 Masters were showing their age. Is the LaLa Land edition substantially improved ?

Yes. The Varese release was also missing overlays and had other issues.

 

https://www.facebook.com/jeffc.bond/posts/10217390496887864

 

Mephisto Waltz is in that boat, now -- unlike The Other which Varese originally paired it with, it was released at its complete length...but just as with PotA we've heard that certain overlays and sweeteners were not found/included. So there's definitely room for an improved edition of that score, if not necessarily an "expanded" one in terms of time.
 

Yavar

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I don't think any label should choose which projects to do or not do based on whether or not a bootleg or isolated score exists.

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Oh, I mostly agree Jay. It's just that it's something that *I* as a Goldsmith fanatic take into consideration when prioritizing what expansions I long for the most. Getting the missing 20 minutes of Love Field or 15 minutes of Medicine Man is more important to me than getting an official release of AFO complete, when I already have an unofficial release of AFO complete. Maybe that's sad, but it's the truth. And labels have said in the past that bootleg releases have hurt their sales, because there are probably many other fans who feel similarly to me, but unlike me actually let the bootleg release preclude purchasing a later official release, for their collections (which is very unfortunate).
 

49 minutes ago, Brundlefly said:

"Gremlins 2: The New Batch", "Chain Reaction", "Executive Decision", "The Omen", "The Haunting", "Small Soldiers" and "Raggedy Man" => expanded by VS

 

Raggedy Man was not expanded by Varese, but released as the final Encore Edition and basically confirmed to be virtually complete, in its original album. (I think a short film insert or something was missing; that's all).

Also, I think you left off a few other Goldsmith Varese-in-perpetuity titles that they previously expanded themselves, such as Star Trek: Nemesis and The 'Burbs -- though as you've pointed out to us, the latter does apparently leave off some film alternates, so presumably a more definitive expansion of it could be produced (maybe if another label like LLL licenses it?)
 

53 minutes ago, Brundlefly said:

"Leviathan", "The Final Conflict" and "Lionheart" => turned out not to be owned by VS in perpetuity


While technically correct, there is an important distinction to mention here though: Leviathan is not owned by *anyone* in perpetuity (no label arranged perpetuity rights), whereas both The Final Conflict and Lionheart are owned by Masters Film Music (i.e. Robert Townson) in perpetuity, so that label would either have to come out of dormancy to produce new definitive editions of both of those scores (though Lionheart is virtually complete already), or be willing to sub-license the rights to another label like LLL or Intrada to do so.

 

Yavar

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I don't need any more Goldsmith score expansions. I'm satisfied. These all either have great albums as is (50 minutes is all Medicine Man needs) or they're boring scores anyway and I wouldn't listen to them in album nor complete form (Air Force One). 

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So, after recent developments, this is the full list of still-improvable Goldsmith titles Varese controls in perpetuity:

Our Man Flint (1966) -- while released in expanded form on Twilight Time's Blu-ray isolated score track, that contained microedits and a definitive CD release is still necessary
In Like Flint (1967) -- while released in expanded form on Twilight Time's Blu-ray isolated score track, that contained microedits and a definitive CD release is still necessary

The Ballad of Cable Hogue (1970) -- though they premiered it as a limited Club release, they apparently got perpetuity rights because they are still selling it digitally

The Mephisto Waltz (1971) -- though complete, length-wise, it is still missing some sweeteners and overlays and could probably be improved sound-wise a la PotA
The Other (1972) -- while released in expanded form on Twilight Time's Blu-ray isolated score track, that contained microedits and a definitive CD release is still necessary

Damien: Omen II (1978) -- this was released complete by Varese over two decades ago but some of the film recording showed damage and could hopefully be improved
Raggedy Man (1981) -- pretty much only could be improved upon if one cares about getting the film version of one cue with an insert...

The 'Burbs (1989) -- while Varese released this "complete", @Brundlefly has pointed out that they left off certain film alternates which could be included on a definitive issue

Love Field (1991) -- missing 15-20 minutes according to Robert Townson, including a substantial action cue which was too long for him to include because of re-use fees

       also, see Roger and Doug's posts in this Intrada thread: http://www.intrada.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7704&sid=e4b531e2d606fba6d95926ce131a1d8e

Mom and Dad Save the World (1991) -- a very poor-sounding sessions boot (from cassette) is out there, but a good sounding expansion is a must

Medicine Man (1992) -- about 15 minutes are unreleased: https://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=109823&forumID=1&archive=0
Mr. Baseball (1992) -- no idea how much is unreleased...though it's generally derided as one of Jerry's worst, I think it has its moments (including a nice love theme)

Malice (1993) -- unless there were unused cues or alternates, less than 8 minutes unreleased: http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=110814&forumID=1&archive=0

Matinee (1993) -- a *lot* is unreleased and only exists on a poor-sounding sessions boot...here's one cue: https://www.dropbox.com/s/63xpcoqz1um2rkd/Number 4.mp3?dl=0

Rudy (1993) -- complete score released officially as a lossy isolated score track on DVD; still needs a lossless CD release

Angie (1994) -- as with Mr. Baseball, I have no idea how much is unreleased and this is not a score a lot of people ask for

City Hall (1996) -- about 12 minutes are unreleased: https://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=110759&forumID=1&archive=0

Air Force One (1997) -- a ton is unreleased, officially, but pretty sure everything by Goldsmith, McNeely, and Randy Newman has been released in good sound unofficially

L.A. Confidential (1997) -- complete score released officially as a lossy isolated score track on DVD; still needs a lossless CD release

U.S. Marshals (1998) -- over half the score (35 minutes) is unreleased: https://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=109822&forumID=1&archive=0

The 13th Warrior (1999) -- almost 20 minutes are unreleased (all good cues if nothing amazing), but at least available on a good-sounding boot

Hollow Man (2000) -- complete score released officially as a lossy isolated score track on DVD; still needs a lossless CD release
Along Came a Spider (2001) -- about 24 minutes unreleased (though there is a boot): https://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=124338&forumID=1&archive=0

Timeline (2003) -- hefty chunk is unreleased officially, but the sessions have at least been floating around in great quality

Looney Tunes: Back in Action (2003) -- again a good chunk is missing (including over 10 minutes of John Debney scoring for the finale because of Jerry's illness); boot exists

 

I count 25 titles that could potentially be improved in some way. And even if one eliminates the titles that just need a sound improvement facelift rather than full expansion (i.e. Mephisto Waltz, Damien: Omen II) there's still a good number left.

Yavar

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2 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Also, I think you left off a few other Goldsmith Varese-in-perpetuity titles that they previously expanded themselves, such as Star Trek: Nemesis and The 'Burbs.

In this case, I just wanted to emphasize how much the "full list of still-improvable Goldsmith titles Varese controls in perpetuity" has shrinked since 2015 (in some cases merely in our minds), so I didn't count any Deluxe Editions before that year.

 

1 hour ago, Yavar Moradi said:

The Ballad of Cable Hogue (1970) -- though they premiered it as a limited Club release, they apparently got perpetuity rights because they are still selling it digitally

I was already wondering about the situation of that title.

1 hour ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Damien: Omen II (1978) -- this was released complete by Varese over two decades ago but some of the film recording showed damage and could hopefully be improved

So The Final Conflict is not owned by VS, but this one is? - Hmm, a trilogy box set by La-La Land would be cool (and meanwhile possible).

1 hour ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Raggedy Man (1981) -- pretty much only could be improved upon if one cares about getting the film version of one cue with an insert...

Let's strike that from the list, waiting for a new release isn't worth it.;)

1 hour ago, Yavar Moradi said:

The 'Burbs (1989) -- while Varese released this "complete", @Brundlefly has pointed out that they left off certain film alternates which could be included on a definitive issue

The alternates prevent this release from being called "definitive", but the film version inserts have absolutely no musical merit and are mostly crappily edited into the rest of the cue. So I'm not gonna wait for those to be released either.:)

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Oh, okay. I had thought you were saying that there were actually unreleased film versions of cues that would be worth releasing, in the future, if there were another edition.

 

Re: LLL producing a new Omen box set along the lines of their recently announced Planet of the Apes box set...I'm not sure they could do it, actually. Robert Townson would have to be willing to play ball and license The Final Conflict to them from Masters Film Music, in addition to Varese licensing the other scores (including Jonathan Sheffer's Omen IV and Marco Beltrami's score for the Omen remake, if LLL wants to make the set as definitive as their PotA set). So LLL would have to negotiate (and pay for) licenses with Varese Sarabande, Masters Film Music/Robert Townson, *and* 20th Century Fox (now owned by Disney) for the unreleased music.

 

When Robert Townson was still at Varese, the project would have been more doable because The Final Conflict was still "in the family" with him there. In fact I suggested this very project, at the time, but instead of a big box set like they gave the Nightmare on Elm Street franchise, Varese only opted to do a "40th Anniversary Edition" of Jerry's original Oscar winning score, on its own.

 

Yavar

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I can walk and chew gum at the same time. :D

 

Since starting work on The Goldsmith Odyssey over a year ago, I must admit that Jerry Goldsmith has ended up consuming over 90% of my film music listening time, so I am not your average film music fan. It seems to me like Brundlefly is also pretty far gone, in terms of his own Goldsmith obsession...but I'll let him speak for himself.

 

Yavar

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On 7/17/2019 at 9:38 PM, Yavar Moradi said:

When Robert Townson was still at Varese, the project would have been more doable because The Final Conflict was still "in the family" with him there. In fact I suggested this very project, at the time, but instead of a big box set like they gave the Nightmare on Elm Street franchise, Varese only opted to do a "40th Anniversary Edition" of Jerry's original Oscar winning score, on its own.

A box set of the Omen trilogy would have been a very good idea, I really don't understand, why Varese didn't do that in 2016!

 

On 7/17/2019 at 9:48 PM, Kasey Kockroach said:

Do you guys ever listen to music, or just sit around waiting for more music? 

Normally, I just listen to what I have, but when there is an exciting release just being announced, I sometimes suffer from the "cool, what's next"-syndrome.

 

On 7/17/2019 at 10:19 PM, Yavar Moradi said:

It seems to me like Brundlefly is also pretty far gone, in terms of his own Goldsmith obsession...but I'll let him speak for himself.

80% of what I listen to is orchestral music, out of that 80% is film music and out of that 80% is Jerry Goldsmith - which kinda legitimizes the term "obsession" at least for now.

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I see that all the freakin' time at FSM.

"Thanks for releasing this score,Intrada!...so when are you doing THIS one?"

At the height of my film score collecting, I probably only fell in love with two out of every five scores and left the remaining three to gather dust.

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On 7/19/2019 at 9:01 PM, Kasey Kockroach said:

At the height of my film score collecting, I probably only fell in love with two out of every five scores and left the remaining three to gather dust.

That's bad economy.

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On 7/17/2019 at 5:49 PM, Brundlefly said:
  • "Gremlins 2: The New Batch", "Chain Reaction", "Executive Decision", "The Omen", "The Haunting", "Small Soldiers" and "Raggedy Man" => expanded by VS
  • "Leviathan", "The Final Conflict" and "Lionheart" => turned out not to be owned by VS in perpetuity
  • "Criminal Law" and "Fierce Creature" => turned out to be complete already
  • "Planet of the Apes" and "Escape from the Planet of the Apes" => expanded by another label

I'm especially happy to see these titles off the list. I voted Air Force One, Medicine Man and Hollow Man.

 

Hopefully, the triple 80s L (Legend, Lionheart, Leviathan) will get a proper treatment soon.

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Only AFO and US Marshals remain for me, all the rest is either perfectly fine as it is or just not that good (who on earth needs another edition of the 'Lionheart' or 'Medicine Man'?). 

 

Going by shabby album treatments i'd say 'Supergirl' is the one that would profit most from a Mattessino-like treatment: the Varése sounds shitty/pinched but is sans electronics whereas the Silva has everything but sounds like...let's call it a different kind of shit. 

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9 hours ago, publicist said:

Only AFO and US Marshals remain for me, all the rest is either perfectly fine as it is or just not that good (who on earth needs another edition of the 'Lionheart' or 'Medicine Man'?). 

In the case of Lionheart there is another reason that you always seem to ignore while ranting about double dippers: The title would be back in print in physical format for guys like me who missed out on the item, before they even knew there was a guy called Jerry Goldsmith - so why not expand and remaster it at the same time?

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1 hour ago, Brundlefly said:

In the case of Lionheart there is another reason that you always seem to ignore while ranting about double dippers: The title would be back in print in physical format for guys like me who missed out on the item, before they even knew there was a guy called Jerry Goldsmith - so why not expand and remaster it at the same time?

 

Even if a new Lionheart performance were produced (which seems unlikely now, though I'd buy one of course!), I would still want a definitive complete and chronological edition of the original under Jerry's baton. And I think that performance is rather underrated. Not perfect to be sure, but it's a noticeably better orchestra than the Hungarian State *Opera* Orchestra that performed Hoosiers, Extreme Prejudice, King Solomon's Mines, and Rambo III.

 

And publicist, I'd personally get more excited for an expansion of Medicine Man (which is a gorgeous score still missing a quarter hour of music) than either AFO (because there's already an unofficial complete edition) or USM (because to me it's just a generic by the numbers action score). Different strokes for different folks, I guess!

Yavar

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King Solomon's Mines is noticeably better performed. There are no brass flubs like in 'The Wrong Flag'. But it's also a perfect knights/medieval score and not a Raiders-knock off, so that alone should justify a good modern recording.

 

'Medicine Man' isn't that interesting over its 50 minutes of run time (there's a good deal of mood filler and repetition), so i sure wouldn't double-dip for it. US Marshals at least has quite a few missing action cues that actually sound different from the cues on the score release. AFO i can live with the boot, too.

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11 hours ago, publicist said:

Exactly. It's the last straw to prevent a re-recording, the only worthy format to preserve 'Lionheart's greatness.

I would also prefer it that way - as long as I there will be any physical release in the future, I'm happy.

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I badgered Leigh Philips about it and tried them to agree to a Kickstarter but due to Fitzpatrick's impending retirement (and lack of interest) i doubt that will happen. If anyone wants to do it, i gladly shell up to 200€ into the pot.

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I added the time of unreleased music. Air Force One, U.S. Marshals and Timeline are the winners, having at least 30 minutes missing each.

 

Can anybody say, how much is missing from The Other, Mr. Baseball and Angie?

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The Twilight Time iso score track is about 20 min longer than the Varese CD, but is missing some bits of music on that suite. So I’d say there is maybe as much missing music from that (23-ish minutes?) as there is released music.

 

For Angie and Mr. Baseball I still have to watch the films and do a score breakdown.

 

And if Bob Townson’s memory is correct there’s about 20 missing minutes of music from Love Field (by Jerry; there’s more by a different composer), including a lengthy action cue.

 

Yavar

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