Luka 242 Posted September 17, 2019 Share Posted September 17, 2019 Hello everyone! After watching this video from Vox: I felt inspired to make a thread about the many Dies Irae uses in movies. It has always been something I enjoy spotting in soundtracks. This guy already started a list on this other video: In this last video, we can read about three different types of the motive. Type 1 Full statement Not only the first notes, but the full theme of the original Dies irae chant. Type 2 Stinger Probably the most common one. It represents most of the time the four first notes of the Dies irae original chant. Type 3 Ostinato Often provides a certain energy and intensity to a scene. It is rarely foregrounded in the mix, and the four notes are sometimes inverted. So if you think of any other uses of Dies irae in movies or tv shows, please add them to this thread. (I'm sure you will, there are so many!) And if you can, write down which type you think it belongs to. Or maybe you can think of another type that doesn't fit with those three? John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,331 Posted September 18, 2019 Share Posted September 18, 2019 8 hours ago, Luka said: So if you think of any other uses of Dies irae in movies or tv shows, please add them to this thread. (I'm sure you will, there are so many!) I was surprised there are already that many! And several by John Williams! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,516 Posted September 18, 2019 Share Posted September 18, 2019 My current favourite I can think of is Orphans of Doom from Conan, a very slow choral rendition moving beyond the first 4 notes but developing into different material before long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luka 242 Posted September 18, 2019 Author Share Posted September 18, 2019 6 hours ago, Holko said: My current favourite I can think of is Orphans of Doom from Conan, a very slow choral rendition moving beyond the first 4 notes but developing into different material before long. Could you find it on YouTube with a timecode? I'd like to hear it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,516 Posted September 18, 2019 Share Posted September 18, 2019 Section starts at around 0:08. The Illustrious Jerry and Luka 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luka 242 Posted September 18, 2019 Author Share Posted September 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, Holko said: Section starts at around 0:08. Oh wow! Probably the most soft and beautiful rendition of Dies irae I've heard haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,511 Posted September 18, 2019 Share Posted September 18, 2019 http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/search/&q=dies irae&page=2&search_and_or=and&sortby=relevancy The many uses of Dies Irae on JWFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luka 242 Posted September 18, 2019 Author Share Posted September 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Modest Expectations said: http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/search/&q=dies irae&page=2&search_and_or=and&sortby=relevancy The many uses of Dies Irae on JWFan Oh no! I was looking for a thread about it before posting mine but didn't find one. Sorry about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted September 18, 2019 Share Posted September 18, 2019 Who dies? Score 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted September 18, 2019 Share Posted September 18, 2019 Irae. Fabulin and Score 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,054 Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 The correct German spelling is Dieser Ire. Luka 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Illustrious Jerry 3,356 Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 Ah, I had actually thought of the Close Encounters example before I watched the above video. It's probably one of my favourite of many neat moments in that score. Also interesting to note that the part at 1:17 is reminiscent to this: Which is of course going off of Stravinsky: They're all kind of connected. Luka and Hal Stein 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John 2,032 Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 Cool video! I never noticed until now that the “descending thirds” Nazgul motif was actually a variation of Dies Irae. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 6 hours ago, John said: I never noticed until now that the “descending thirds” Nazgul motif was actually a variation of Dies Irae. That's because its not. John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,054 Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 How's it not a variation? John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 When you have a musical idea as short and simple as the Dies Irae "stinger", it gets very hard to tell when a composer intentionally references the Dies Irae, or when - is his attempt to evoke similar ideas of impending doom - has just stumbled upon a similar (or indeed the same) couple of notes. Its the equivalent of a generic piece of dialogue in a script. Characters exclaim, for instance, "no!" in many films, but you'd hardly call it a reference. Its just a generic piece of language. There's no intentionality there. I seem to recall Shore (or was it Adams?) who said that the scores contain no intentional quotes of the Dies Irae. Arpy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,054 Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 Shore was undoubtedly aware of the similarly. John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Illustrious Jerry 3,356 Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 I don't think it has to be intentional. I hear Dies Irae loud and clear. And as Shark has noted, I think Shore was well aware enough, especially considering he was practically composing an opera to picture, of Dies Irae and it's connotations of death, doom and demise. Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 According to Doug Adams: Quote Shore did not intend the Descending Third motif as any sort of Dies Irae quote. in fact, I've often wondered if it's the black-hooded riders, more than the music itself, that conjure this association. There's simply not THAT much in common, musically speaking. Both lines tend to begin on the third scale degree and somehow descend. But then, so does the opening to Beethoven's Fifth. In scale degrees: DIES IRAE: 3 2 3 1 2 7 1 1 SHORE: 3 1 2 7 1 6 7 5 BEETHOVEN: 3 3 3 1 2 2 2 7 Looking at it this way, the Shore would appear to have more in musically common with the Beethoven that the Dies Irae. Obviously, it's once again unintentional. Arpy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,054 Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 If I write a piece of music where an element is similar to a famous musical idea, whether intentional or not, I have to choices: either accept that listeners will label it as inspired by, a variation, a hommage, or something similar, or I can rewrite it to sound less similar. Btw, Adams "forgets" the important factor of rhythm in his analysis, which makes Beethoven's 5th the least similar of the three for a casual listener. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,306 Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 13 hours ago, The Illustrious Jerry said: Which is of course going off of Stravinsky: They're all kind of connected. Wow! It's The Intersection Scene from WOTW. Williams must listen to a lot of Stravinsky, influences throughout so many of his scores in so many different modulations. Chen G. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,054 Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 It's called temp track! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted October 8, 2019 Share Posted October 8, 2019 In David Arnold’s The World is Not Enough At 0:14 in the second part of the Submarine cue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Score 770 Posted October 8, 2019 Share Posted October 8, 2019 On 9/21/2019 at 5:50 PM, Chen G. said: According to Doug Adams: The Beethoven example does not really fit. In that numerical notation, it would be 555 3 444 2 (it's in C minor, and starts on the note G, which is the 5th note of the scale). So, the Beethoven example has nothing to do with the Dies Irae, except that they are both in a minor key. In my opinion, there is indeed a similarity between the Shore example and the Dies Irae, which is partially due to a similar rhythm (just in the beginning, then the Dies Irae melody goes on quite differently), and partially due to the modal melody (in both cases, in D minor). However, it's definitely not a "quote", and it's the kind of similarity that can happen by chance, or by a kind of subconscious choice by the composer. If Shore said that it was not done intentionally, I surely believe him (not that there would be anything wrong otherwise). Another interesting example that might recall of the Dies Irae, because of the rhythm and, again, a modal melody in D minor, is from Mike Oldfield's instrumental piece "Tubular Bells", at 6:56 in this video: Chen G. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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