Figo 2 Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 I hasten to add, Alexcremers' unfortunate experience with the EMI set demonstrates the difference between a record company dumping its back-catalogue back into the marketplace, in an attempt to ring out every last cent, and a label cannily repackaging excellent recordings at mid- or budget-price to stay competitive. For as shitty as Sony has been to soundtrack collectors, and for as many stupid crossover projects as they've released, they've been fairly smart with their classic recordings (Bernstein, Szell, Bruno Walter, Ormandy and the Philadelphia Orch., Glenn Gould, Stravinsky conducting Stravinsky, and certainly Copland conducting Copland), and know full well they've already made back their investment, dozens of times over. Every single music lover who gets interested in classical eventually buys these recordings. Sony knows that. It's money in the bank. Reissuing them at full-price again, after 30 or 40 years, would drive potential customers to take a chance on cheaper products put out by the competition -- like that sorry EMI set which moulders on Alexcremers' shelves.Sorry about the typos in my previous post ("John Ford" and the like). For some reason, I am unable to edit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,327 Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 Mmmm, Eduardo Mata, that's him. Terrible performance. Anyhoo, it's great to see Figo defend his recommendation with such fighting spirit. At least, we now know it's more than just a budget thing and that it even has managed to escaped the usual dumping practises of the record labels.However, in his argument, Figo was so passionated that he, accidentally perhaps, made up a few things. I like to point out that I have no special preference for digital recordings, nor do I see it mentioned here. I complained about the the sometimes questionable performances that sneak their way into big and budget compilations, and yet, according the Figo, I don't care about performances. I'm not sure what to make of this. It seems somewhat contradictory. But again, I'm sure it was all said in the heat of the moment and that no harm was intended.----------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figo 2 Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 Indeed, no harm was intended. While I admit to sometimes hammering the occasional point, you, Alexcremers, commit the opposite sin. Apparently, you were vague enough in your convictions (re: sound quality) that Morlock made the same assumption.Mata was a fine conductor of Latin American music, which is why it surprises me that his Copland (eg., Danzon Cubano) stinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,327 Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 In this particular case I'm not vague at all, Figo. You jumped to the conclusion that I'm a digital boy, which I'm not. Even Morlock knows I'm one of the few people around here that actually champions the medium vinyl. But for the record, I do love a modern new recording when it comes to orchestral music. I think that sound-wise we're leaps ahead of the recordings made in the 60s (in classical music anyway), but that doesn't mean I love digital over analogue. And when I said that many of these budget compilations always seem to have a few stinkers on board, specifically concerning their audio and/or performance quality, I honestly don't feel that I was being vague, cause you see, if I have to explain every sentence I write, my posts would be even more boring than they already are. ----------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mari 279 Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 Since I was the one who mentioned the quantity of music available on the 3-disc Sony set, I suppose I need to defend my recommendation as well. Yes, budget was a consideration for me since Morlock had mentioned a dollar range, but ultimately the reason I suggested this particular set was grounded in more personal considerations. As I mentioned earlier, it was the first set of Copland discs I purchased and it was my love for the music and Copland's interpretation of his music that spurred me on to collect more recordings. This set had such an impact on me as a novice Copland admirer that I thought it might be a good starter set for Morlock to begin his own personal journey of discovery.Kathy, now handing the audio/performance quality arguments back to the two experts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figo 2 Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 Somehow this conversation went from discussing great albums to the cheapest way to get as much music possible. The problem is that, in most cases, those budget discs don't have much of a personality and they will most likely lack the character to become a fully-fledged asset in your CD collection. Of course, it's undeniable that they offer much music, but I usually have the feeling that the deal you get with them is quantity over quality. I bought one a few years ago (Copland, double FForte, EMI) and I never bothered to listen to it more than ... twice. Rest assured, they always include a few selections inferior to the rest of program. It's a convenient way for music labels to make a buck on questionable material that otherwise wouldn't stand a chance if it were standing on its own feet. Sometimes that material exists of old recordings (even going all the way back to the Sixties), and in other instances they throw in a couple of titles with disputable quality, especially regarding to their performance. Either way, you'll end up with an album that is not a very attractive jewel to behold. It is a constant reminder that you didn't buy the genuine article. It's a bit like buying 'Echos, The Best of Pink Floyd' instead of 'Dark Side of the Moon'. It's buying the 'Indiana Jones trilogy' soundtrack, while instead you could've gone for 'Raiders of the Lost Ark'. When all things are said and done, you'll value the latter indefinitely more.----------------Alex CremersWell, if you want to nitpick, my good man, this thread did not go from "discussing great albums to the cheapest way to get as much music as possible." That was your own impeccable logic at work. We were talking about the best Copland starter set (as can be seen by actually reading the thread). Can we help it if the best set is also one of the cheapest? For one who finds fault with my powers of rhetoric, I for one find it amusing that you inject your own posts with phrases like "rest assured" -- as if you yourself are the world-authority.Which reminds me, I'm betting that crappy EMI set of yours is all-digital. Oh the irony -- the better performances are mere STEREO! Modern classical recordings may have made great strides, technologically speaking (your opinion, of course -- digital has definitely improved, but in too many cases has yet to match the warmth and fidelity of good old-fashioned vinyl), but the musicianship today is more often than not quite bland compared to that of the recent past -- letter-perfect at the expense of soul.It's strange that you would condemn labels' repackagings of "old recordings," then turn around and compare their purchase to choosing the "Indiana Jones Trilogy," over the original soundtracks (which of course are older).Holy circular logic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,327 Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 For one who finds fault with my powers of rhetoric, I for one find it amusing that you inject your own posts with phrases like "rest assured" -- as if you yourself are the world-authority. Boy o' boy, if using the words "rest assured" makes me sound like I want to pose as an authority, well, then I must be one, I guess. And what an expert I am! It looks like I was right, since it is indeed 60s material you're promoting, Figo!!!! (remember what I said? "all the way back to the Sixties" LOL ) And you even admitted in one of your posts that my findings about budget series in general are true, except of course, for the Sony releases, which you have pointed out so passionately. (hey, you made me ready to purchase it)It's strange that you would condemn labels' repackagings of "old recordings," then turn around and compare their purchase to choosing the "Indiana Jones Trilogy," over the original soundtracks (which of course are older). Holy circular logic!Nice try, Figo (your anger makes you desperate, my friend), but this had absolutely nothing to do with recording quality. You are focussing too much on your own presumptions, about me being a digital boy, that it keeps you from thinking straight. I'll put in back in the right context for you. I believe these non-uniformly-bundled-cheap-looking-budget sets usually don't have a lot of character or personality (hence the "Indiana Jones Trilogy" analogy). Oh yes, they once might have blossomed, when they were still in their original state as seperate (vinyl) releases, but look what has become of them now. I don't want 'Star Wars', 'Raiders of the lost Ark' and 'Concerto for Violin and Orchestra' to be merged together in the same jewel case, stamped with the title "Williams conducts Williams". I hope that clarifies it.----------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mari 279 Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 Morlock,If you haven't had a chance to read through all the posts, here's a brief summary of point-counterpoint:1. Figo and I both have the Sony Copland Collection, love it and highly recommend it to you as a starter set.2. Alex does not have the set and has condemned it because he doesn't like the idea, but hasn't heard it and can't judge the quality of the performances.Say I've got $30-35 bucks, and don't mind buying it used (off Amazon) what would you recommend in the way of Copland? Beginner stuff, accesible stuff.Alex, given Morlock's parameters listed above, what would you recommend as starter music instead?Kathy, curious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,327 Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 Okay, one more time, this time in telegram style.1) I said "in most cases" or "many of them" or "usually" it's quantity over quality, which was agreed upon by Figo, who assured me this is 'not so' with the Sony Collection. 2) Then, out of the blue, I was condemned for being a digital boy for no reason whatsoever.3) I explained that I'm not a digital boy. 4) Then I was accused for committing sins! Figo calls me vague because he can't think straight. He keeps seeing "ones and zeros" all over the place.5) I explained once again that I do not put sound over performance and that I have nothing against analogue.6) Then I was a nitpicker. After that he tried to place the analogy I made in the wrong context.7) I explain, re-explain and remedy that what was misunderstood. So, I adore digital/loathe analogue/I'm a sinner/I'm vague: all this because Figo is displeased with my statement, a statement he said he understands where it is coming from. You see, Kathy, I'm not continuously bashing the Sony Collection. I'm constantly trying to clear up my vagueness. If there's still something you or Figo don't understand, please, don't hesitate to ask.----------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mari 279 Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 Say I've got $30-35 bucks, and don't mind buying it used (off Amazon) what would you recommend in the way of Copland? Beginner stuff, accesible stuff.Alex, given Morlock's parameters listed above, what would you recommend as starter music instead?Kathy, curiousAlex,I have asked you a question that remains unanswered (see above) ... Kathy, truly curious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,327 Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 I already gave my recommendation.And yes, you asked a question, but you also said a few things that needed rectifying first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 Did I really write this just last month? Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,327 Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 I think Figo is Stefancos . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 Are you kidding, in the old days Figo was my Nemesis, we disagreed about almost everything...sure we still do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mari 279 Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 I already gave my recommendation.Okay, gotcha! And yes, you asked a question, but you also said a few things that needed rectifying first.Alex,I do thank you for your explanation. I did mention once that I always enjoy your posts, and I still do. I just didn't say that I would always agree with them. (I mean, of course, your posts about music and movies and not your post defending your honor, which I completely respect.)Kathy, frankly enjoying the Figo/Cremers debatep.s. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,327 Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 At least Figo agrees with me on some points :cry:.----------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 I agree with you that the prequels suck.Isn't that enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mari 279 Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 At least Figo agrees with me on some points . LOLWell, we do all agree that Copland is a genius. Kathy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,327 Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 I wish that was true. Stefancos hates Copland :cry: . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 Do I don't, DeNiro was good in it, as was Stallone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlock 11 Posted June 19, 2004 Author Share Posted June 19, 2004 Repeating a bad joke in the same thread? How the great have fallen! And Kathy, thanx alot, I will take your and Figo's advice regarding that recording. And if I get into Copland, I will take Mr. Cremers' advice as to the best recordings. Thanx to all for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 Repeating a bad joke in the same thread? How the great have fallen!It was never a bad joke.Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlock 11 Posted June 19, 2004 Author Share Posted June 19, 2004 Well, it was predictable. Or, I predicted it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmo Lewis 6 Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 It was never a bad joke.NeilPlease.-Ross, who knows Neil can do better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin 2 Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 -Ross, who knows Neil can do better.Kathy thought it was good. Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mari 279 Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 And Kathy, thanx alot, I will take your and Figo's advice regarding that recording. And if I get into Copland, I will take Mr. Cremers' advice as to the best recordings. Thanx to all for your help. Kathyp.s. Justin - LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,327 Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 I got this in my mail today! Yeah-hah!----------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mari 279 Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 Congrats Alex!Well, what do you think of it? I'm slightly interested to read your thoughts on The Heiress Suite. Kathy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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