Incanus 5,714 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I am kind of hoping for Americana writing with a small group of instrumental soloists giving the music unique colouring. Something in the spirit of Air and Simple Gifts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 As long as it's different enough to be fresh, but written with the brilliance that seems to infect almost all of Williams' scores I'll be happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I personally love Amistad. The ethnic writing is fantastic and the Americana in the score is great too.I really like Williams' Americana, especially when fleshed out for a full orchestra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I love Amistad too. In fact, recently I've been realizing that after studying and analyzing Williams' works there's very few that I don't love, or at least deeply appreciate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,714 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I personally love Amistad. The ethnic writing is fantastic and the Americana in the score is great too.I really like Williams' Americana, especially when fleshed out for a full orchestra.It is a really wonderful score that combines the familiar Americana with the African choral and percussion in a great way.I love Amistad too. In fact, recently I've been realizing that after studying and analyzing Williams' works there's very few that I don't love, or at least deeply appreciate.Pretty much my sentiments exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I personally love Amistad. The ethnic writing is fantastic and the Americana in the score is great too.I really like Williams' Americana, especially when fleshed out for a full orchestra.It is a really wonderful score that combines the familiar Americana with the African choral and percussion in a great way.I think the score is sometimes underrated. Judging from some of the comments I've read on this board, not many people like Amistad as much as his other works. But when I first heard the score, it blew me away. The African choral parts are absolutely (I love Cinque's Theme) and the Americana is breathtaking in cues like The Long Road to Justice. A great score in my opinion.I love Amistad too. In fact, recently I've been realizing that after studying and analyzing Williams' works there's very few that I don't love, or at least deeply appreciate.The same goes for me. This is why I love the man so much. Not many (if any) film score composers have achieved that same level of consistency. Williams always tends to offer great scores. Even his weaker efforts are miles ahead of the average scores. His come back this year with Tintin and War Horse just proves that he can obliterate his competition whenever he wants to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie 1 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I didn't warm up to WAR HORSE, yet. Sometimes it needs time.When I first listened to MUNICH and ANGELA'S ASHES, I didn'tenjoy them at all. With Williams' drama scores for films scheduledduring awards season, it happens quite a lot, although I usuallylove and treasure every note my favorite composer writes, in someway.AMISTAD - as a score - was a highly interesting thing that didn'tcome together as a fully rounded experience. We've got "Cinque'sTheme" which clearly foreshadows "Anakin's Theme" but standson its own as one of Williams' saddest compositions. Very rich.The choir pieces are obviously modelled after Hans Zimmer's"The Lion King" which were also the temp track (you can clearlyhear Williams channeling Zimmer, who outpassed him, popularity-wise, in the 90s, during that time). At the same time, they havethe same class and substance as the Welsh choir material in"Empire of the Sun" - which, in turn, was also temp tracked byanother composer (namely Morricone, The Mission). But thereare also Americana parts in there that are more on the boringside - and so was the whole movie. I can see why it flopped.AMISTAD was also suffering from a blundering album edit likemost of Williams' scores of the Nineties and the Noughties whichdidn't do much for it as a listening experience. As a transitional,but compromised piece it holds up well in my eyes. Just as thelast-minute replacement scores JW did at the same time, likethe beautiful, but not fully fleshed out STEPMOM, SLEEPERS and ROSEWOOD, which were done in a hurry. In that respect,AMISTAD is one of many.William's real masterpiece of the late Nineties must be SEVENYEARS IN TIBET, though. That was a replacement score as well,but it doesn't come across as truncated as the pieces mentionedabove.Talking LINCOLN, I'm hoping JW comes up with an approach that'smore fresh than what he did on WAR HORSE, which - at least in myeyes - was too much of a drawback to his early Nineties compositionalstyle, even with the then fashionable synth stuff that sounds akwardtoday. Get over it - WAR HORSE sounds like a routine job.LINCOLN, which was shot pretty quick, will have a smaller, character-driven scope, which always worked very well for John Williams. Also,if the man has 6 months of time (and without 2 more score assignmentsand 3 concertos to distract him), maybe we finally get another majormasterpiece. WAR HORSE wasn't. People just want it to be one. Augie(your guy in Mos Eisley) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor 797 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Get over it - WAR HORSE sounds like a routine job. Mr. Funnyman is in the house! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I would agree that War Horse, like Tintin is not a top 10 Williams score, not even top 20.This forum tends to go hog wild on new Williams scores.We shall see how well they will be remembered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor 797 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I would agree that War Horse, like Tintin is not a top 10 Williams score, not even top 20.That's not even what he said so who are you agreeing with...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie 1 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 @RoaldThere's still the subject of "taste" to consider. I didn't want tooffend anybody.All I can say is I listened carefully to "War Horse", repeatedly.And my HONEST emotional response to it was, indeed, luke-warm. I felt the same with PHANTOM MENACE (which grew onme after a proper 2 CD treatment).On an intellectual level, I tried to give it the proper classification;just where I think it belongs in the whole JW oeuvre. A routinejob for John Williams is still high up the mountain. As much as Ilike ALWAYS, for example - compared to the rest you can callit a routine job without remorse. And nobody will disagree. Justbecause "War Horse" is new on the map, and the first dramaticeffort since 6 years, people throw around with superlatives.I'm a longtime Williams fan, and I found it fair to middling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,347 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I felt the same with PHANTOM MENACE (which grew onme after a proper 2 CD treatment).If you mean the Ultimate Edition, than I wouldnt call that "proper". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie 1 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Agreed!But there are alternative album edits which helped to improvethe overall picture the akwardly edited original OST left behind.I think many fans felt the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor 797 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 @RoaldThere's still the subject of "taste" to consider. I didn't want tooffend anybody.All I can say is I listened carefully to "War Horse", repeatedly.And my HONEST emotional response to it was, indeed, luke-warm. I felt the same with PHANTOM MENACE (which grew onme after a proper 2 CD treatment).On an intellectual level, I tried to give it the proper classification;just where I think it belongs in the whole JW oeuvre. A routinejob for John Williams is still high up the mountain. As much as Ilike ALWAYS, for example - compared to the rest you can callit a routine job without remorse. And nobody will disagree. Justbecause "War Horse" is new on the map, and the first dramaticeffort since 6 years, people throw around with superlatives.I'm a longtime Williams fan, and I found it fair to middling.I've been a John Williams for a very, very long time too. War Horse doesn't sound like a 'routine job' to me at all. Williams obviously put a lot of love in the score, like he did with Memoirs Of A Geisha. To call this a 'routine job' sounds so degrading to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I wish the themes were a bit better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie 1 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Roald, what are your favorites? Just interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor 797 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Roald, what are your favorites? Just interested.1. Star Wars2. E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial3. Schindler's List4. Raiders Of The Lost Ark5. Superman The Movie6. The Empire Strikes Back7. Jaws8. Close Encounters Of The Third Kind9. Jurassic Park10. Harry Potter And The Sorcerer's Stone11. Hook12. Born On The Fourth Of July13. War Horse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie 1 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 @ Stefan CosmanI have a similar feeling. Something's lacking!On the other hand, sometimes JW delivers just the perfect musical suit for the movie, and it's not appreciated outsideof the film. As it happened with "Accidental Tourist", "JFK" or"Presumed Innocent", which are almost perfect textbooks offilm scoring. But they had stronger, much more effectivemain themes than "War Horse".Themes that put you immediately into a certain character,mood, time or location. Just take "Angela's Ashes" - awesome!@ RoaldPlace 13 on the hit list - that was close! Of course, I love them all (except 13).At the end of the day it all comes down to different tastes, I guess.But you make me wonder about my own. I'llgive this beast another spin. Perhaps it growson me.What I cannot understand is how "Return of the Jedi" or "Templeof Doom" never show up in the top 10. They are so incredibly rich.Augie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor 797 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 What I cannot understand is how "Return of the Jedi" or "Templeof Doom" never show up in the top 10. They are so incredibly rich.Oh, they appear in many people's top 10 scores on this board. Just not mine. TOD is 21 on my list and ROTJ 22. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie 1 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 What's your least favorite thing/score JW composed?I'd say the only thing I don't like is the new celebrationmusic for the end of ROTJ, from the mid-90s. I hate it. Went straight into the trash compactor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,347 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 "Water!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie 1 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I love this board! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor 797 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 What's your least favorite thing/score JW composed?There are some scores that don't appeal to me. The Patriot for example (apart from the love theme) sounds a bit generic to me. I cannot connect emotionally with a score like Always, and I don't understand all the fuss about 1941. I would never call them bad compositions though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie 1 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 THE PATRIOT didn't seem to be fleshed out, as a whole.That particular Love Theme is one of my all time favorites,however! Sadly, it's very rarely performed live.Apart from the synthesizer stuff, ALWAYS has lots of nice"the american woods" music in it, just as HEARTBEEPS,and I find these parts very evocative and effective."1941" is a very rich score - but you must embrace itscomical "impertinence" (as JW would say). It's very pushyand cartoonish, like the film. Williams gets a chance toquote and celebrate all kinds of musical references inthere (even some Ron Goodwinisms). Something herarely gets a chance to do.I never got one cue in "Memoirs of a Geisha". It's usedduring the scene with the scarf/or handkerchief. It's apiece that is so mega-subtle that it didn't work at all, ifyou ask me. I can't even remember its name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor 797 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 THE PATRIOT didn't seem to be fleshed out, as a whole.That particular Love Theme is one of my all time favorites,however! Sadly, it's very rarely performed live.Apart from the synthesizer stuff, ALWAYS has lots of nice"the american woods" music in it, just as HEARTBEEPS,and I find these parts very evocative and effective."1941" is a very rich score - but you must embrace itscomical "impertinence" (as JW would say). It's very pushyand cartoonish, like the film. Williams gets a chance toquote and celebrate all kinds of musical references inthere (even some Ron Goodwinisms). Something herarely gets a chance to do.I never got one cue in "Memoirs of a Geisha". It's usedduring the scene with the scarf/or handkerchief. It's apiece that is so mega-subtle that it didn't work at all, ifyou ask me. I can't even remember its name.The 'Confluence' scene alone is one of the best scored scenes of Williams' career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I never saw the film.(why would i) but Confluence is a fantastic cue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie 1 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 My absolute favorite John Williams track of the Noughtiesis a cue from "Minority Report": A NEW BEGINNING, whichgets totally buried under lots and lots of underscore on thealbum.It's even better in a little known re-recording performed bythe City Of Prague Philharmonic Orchestra. Just great. Believe me. I listened to this version a estimated hundred-thousand times... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I liked The Patriot (despite the lack of originality). I really enjoyed that score!As for weaker Williams Scores. I'm not the biggest fan of Always, and 1941's pushy comedic marches are really too much for me to handle. Also never found much to get out of Heartbeeps.But Memoirs of a Geisha is a brilliant score! And as others have mentioned, Confluence is one his best scored scenes in his career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie 1 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 @Stefan CosmanIt's not the "Confluence" cue, for sure.But I can't stand that particular track (whatever it'scalled).The rest of "Geisha" is fantastic, for sure! I think onecan't discuss about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romão 2,274 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I never got one cue in "Memoirs of a Geisha". It's usedduring the scene with the scarf/or handkerchief. It's apiece that is so mega-subtle that it didn't work at all, ifyou ask me. I can't even remember its name.As the water. That's by far my favorite scene in the movie and one of the most stunning marriages of image and music I have ever seen. I'm shocked you'd bring this scene up as a example of what you didn't like in Memoirs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie 1 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 @MerkelI'm not sure if it really was that scene - i saw the film whilehaving a heavy workload. Six years ago, just once.I think the cue was also featured (or just talked about) in the i-tunes special session with Williams and Yo-Yo Ma,not on the OST.I have kept most of the tracks of the OST, but not thatparticular one. I thought it was "l'art pour l'art" at its mostoffensive. Music for musicians only. Artsy fartsy.Maybe it's just me, and I just don't have emotions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SF1_freeze 131 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 What I cannot understand is how "Return of the Jedi" or "Templeof Doom" never show up in the top 10. They are so incredibly rich.In my opinion TOD is the second best score JW ever composed (only TESB is better).It's also in a lot of top 10 or top 5 lists. So you are not alone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 We've got "Cinque's Theme" which clearly foreshadows "Anakin's Theme" but standson its own as one of Williams' saddest compositions. Very rich.The choir pieces are obviously modelled after Hans Zimmer's"The Lion King" which were also the temp track (you can clearlyhear Williams channeling Zimmer, who outpassed him, popularity-wise, in the 90s, during that time). The similarities between Lion King and Amistad seem pretty superficial. Zimmer wasn't the first to use African choirs.What's your least favorite thing/score JW composed?I'd say the only thing I don't like is the new celebrationmusic for the end of ROTJ, from the mid-90s. I hate it. I love the new celebration music. I think it was very clever of Williams to conclude the saga with Luke and Leia's theme, signifying the new beginning for the characters (especially the main ones). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie 1 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Thanks, SF1_freeze!Actually I was close to visiting my shrink in Bespin.He's bald and always wears kinda headphones.Perhaps he knows something about music...But then you cheered me up again!@indy4Temp tracks are superficial per se. But sometimes this practice generateslittle masterpieces itself, when composers are forced to capture their style.As happened with Christopher Young who had his movie "Jennifer 8" temptracked with John Williams' "Presumed Innocent". A whole new ChristopherYoung style evolved out of that (moody tunes for piano)!Talking "Jedi"Forgive me my ignorance, but did I miss the "Luke and Leia" theme inthe "Victory Celebration", 1997 special edition?It's the "Emperor's Theme" that makes an unexpected appearancein "Augie's Great Municipal Band", where it is interpolated, hidingbehind the samba bass lines. And that happens to be at the end ofEpisode One. Not Six.I should know that.I was under contract,as a conductor, for this band. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 @indy4Temp tracks are superficial per se. But sometimes this practice generateslittle masterpieces itself, when composers are forced to capture their style.As happened with Christopher Young who had his movie "Jennifer 8" temptracked with John Williams' "Presumed Innocent". A whole new ChristopherYoung style evolved out of that (moody tunes for piano)!Talking "Jedi"Forgive me my ignorance, but did I miss the "Luke and Leia" theme inthe "Victory Celebration", 1997 special edition?The main theme from "Victory Celebration" is derived from Luke and Leia's theme. The first five notes are the same.I should know that.I was under contract,as a conductor, for this band.You led the LSO? That's awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie 1 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 The Band was fun, until Palpatine blew up the senate andcrashed Corruscant. As a result, prices for musicians onthe planet were spoiled, and the band split up.Moved to Bespin. Same story. LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricard 2,245 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 The main theme from "Victory Celebration" is derived from Luke and Leia's theme. The first five notes are the same.The Flying Theme from E.T. is derived from the Star Wars Main Theme. The first five notes are the same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 The main theme from "Victory Celebration" is derived from Luke and Leia's theme. The first five notes are the same.I'm not a big fan of the Victory Celebration cue either. Similarly, I never liked the Augie's Municipal Band cue from the Phantom Menace very much. But I thought it was brilliant how Williams used the Emperor's theme in that track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie 1 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Well, Palpatine played it to us, ten minutes before theshow started, as a temp track.Sometimes you've got no choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 The Band was fun, until Palpatine blew up the senate andcrashed Corruscant. As a result, prices for musicians onthe planet were spoiled, and the band split up.Moved to Bespin. Same story.LOL! The main theme from "Victory Celebration" is derived from Luke and Leia's theme. The first five notes are the same.The Flying Theme from E.T. is derived from the Star Wars Main Theme. The first five notes are the same Wow, I never realized that...still, I think that Victory Celebration is derived from Luke and Leia, as Williams is a big fan of deriving minor themes from major ones. And of course, Luke and Leia is derived from Leonard Bernstein's "Make Our Garden Grow." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie 1 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricard 2,245 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 The main theme from "Victory Celebration" is derived from Luke and Leia's theme. The first five notes are the same.The Flying Theme from E.T. is derived from the Star Wars Main Theme. The first five notes are the same Wow, I never realized that...That's because you hadn't been hearing the SW theme for 5 years before E.T.'s Flying Theme aired on the radio... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrbellamy 6,286 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 The main theme from "Victory Celebration" is derived from Luke and Leia's theme. The first five notes are the same.The Flying Theme from E.T. is derived from the Star Wars Main Theme. The first five notes are the same By that token, you could say that the first five notes of both E.T. and Star Wars are derived from Dvorak's Dumky Trio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie 1 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Good night!And please remember:EVERYTHING'S A REMIXhttp://vimeo.com/14912890http://vimeo.com/19447662http://vimeo.com/25380454 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamsStarShip2282 308 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 As a Williams fan since probobly.....BIRTH i am very suprised that i agree with the comment that war horse and tin tin are not in my top 20, HOWEVER, it could be that ive been so hyped up about these two scores to come out for about three years that nothing could live up to the expectations. What i found strange about tin tin, was that some of the cues sounded like a meshing of a bunch of cues from other movies, going beyond his "style" but really just unoriginal sounding. still loved the score thoughAmistad- dont really agree about the whole lion king bit. even though im a big fan of the lion king score, i cant really see him knocking off zimmer. They both have kind of an ethnic African quality to them ( as far as i know, being a Yank and all) but williams score is so much more developed....plus zimmer didnt even write what the african singers sang, and i dont thin elton did either for that matter....As far as Licoln goes im still very excited as always to hear new music from Williams. Even though the two new scores were not my favorite, i still appreciate them and his music still gives something to me that no other composer can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I wish the themes were a bit better.What?If they were any better, they ruptured the space-time continuum.What I cannot understand is how "Return of the Jedi" or "Templeof Doom" never show up in the top 10. They are so incredibly rich.Oh, they appear in many people's top 10 scores on this board. Just not mine. Temple Of Doom certainly belongs in the Top 10, but certainly not RotJ. It's not that it's a bad score, it's just that Williams wrote at least 10 better ones.The things Williams does in RotJ with existing themes doesn't sound very interesting to me, and the new music is in no way on par with the first two films, save for "Luke & Leia".And the Ewok music is a major turn off for me, to put it mildly. Not Williams' fault probably, but still annoying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamsStarShip2282 308 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 @Stefan CosmanIt's not the "Confluence" cue, for sure.But I can't stand that particular track (whatever it'scalled).The rest of "Geisha" is fantastic, for sure! I think onecan't discuss about that.i think the cue youre talking about is " A Dream Discarded"The main theme from "Victory Celebration" is derived from Luke and Leia's theme. The first five notes are the same.The Flying Theme from E.T. is derived from the Star Wars Main Theme. The first five notes are the same im not sure what you mean by et and starwars......only the first two notes are the same and not really, just move by the same interval. et for example, starts on C goes up a fifth to G and then to F,E,D,E,C and then down a fourth to G. Star Wars ( if it starts on see) goes up by a fifth to G and then goes up a fourth to C. just a technicality i guess.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EhTar 63 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 May you be kind enough to enlight me, please: who is Mr Richardson? It's the first time I hear about him.Is he to John Williams what Lois Carruth was to the late Jerry Goldsmith?Thx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TownerFan 4,983 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Jamie Richardson is JW's personal manager. He's part of the Gorfaine/Schwartz Agency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie 1 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 @WilliamsStarShip2282Right! It's "A Dream Discarded" from the "Geisha".This evening, I will give it a last chance on youtube.Thanks for the help!Augie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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