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Lincoln FILM Discussion Thread

1310 posts in this topic

@Roald

There's still the subject of "taste" to consider. I didn't want to

offend anybody.

All I can say is I listened carefully to "War Horse", repeatedly.

And my HONEST emotional response to it was, indeed, luke-

warm. I felt the same with PHANTOM MENACE (which grew on

me after a proper 2 CD treatment).

On an intellectual level, I tried to give it the proper classification;

just where I think it belongs in the whole JW oeuvre. A routine

job for John Williams is still high up the mountain. As much as I

like ALWAYS, for example - compared to the rest you can call

it a routine job without remorse. And nobody will disagree. Just

because "War Horse" is new on the map, and the first dramatic

effort since 6 years, people throw around with superlatives.

I'm a longtime Williams fan, and I found it fair to middling.

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I felt the same with PHANTOM MENACE (which grew on

me after a proper 2 CD treatment).

If you mean the Ultimate Edition, than I wouldnt call that "proper".

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Agreed!

But there are alternative album edits which helped to improve

the overall picture the akwardly edited original OST left behind.

I think many fans felt the same way.

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@Roald

There's still the subject of "taste" to consider. I didn't want to

offend anybody.

All I can say is I listened carefully to "War Horse", repeatedly.

And my HONEST emotional response to it was, indeed, luke-

warm. I felt the same with PHANTOM MENACE (which grew on

me after a proper 2 CD treatment).

On an intellectual level, I tried to give it the proper classification;

just where I think it belongs in the whole JW oeuvre. A routine

job for John Williams is still high up the mountain. As much as I

like ALWAYS, for example - compared to the rest you can call

it a routine job without remorse. And nobody will disagree. Just

because "War Horse" is new on the map, and the first dramatic

effort since 6 years, people throw around with superlatives.

I'm a longtime Williams fan, and I found it fair to middling.

I've been a John Williams for a very, very long time too. War Horse doesn't sound like a 'routine job' to me at all. Williams obviously put a lot of love in the score, like he did with Memoirs Of A Geisha. To call this a 'routine job' sounds so degrading to me.

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Roald, what are your favorites? Just interested.

1. Star Wars

2. E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial

3. Schindler's List

4. Raiders Of The Lost Ark

5. Superman The Movie

6. The Empire Strikes Back

7. Jaws

8. Close Encounters Of The Third Kind

9. Jurassic Park

10. Harry Potter And The Sorcerer's Stone

11. Hook

12. Born On The Fourth Of July

13. War Horse ;)

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@ Stefan Cosman

I have a similar feeling. Something's lacking!

On the other hand, sometimes JW delivers just the perfect

musical suit for the movie, and it's not appreciated outside

of the film. As it happened with "Accidental Tourist", "JFK" or

"Presumed Innocent", which are almost perfect textbooks of

film scoring. But they had stronger, much more effective

main themes than "War Horse".

Themes that put you immediately into a certain character,

mood, time or location.

Just take "Angela's Ashes" - awesome!

@ Roald

Place 13 on the hit list - that was close! :up:

Of course, I love them all (except 13).

At the end of the day it all comes down to

different tastes, I guess.

But you make me wonder about my own. I'll

give this beast another spin. Perhaps it grows

on me.

What I cannot understand is how "Return of the Jedi" or "Temple

of Doom" never show up in the top 10. They are so incredibly rich.

Augie

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What I cannot understand is how "Return of the Jedi" or "Temple

of Doom" never show up in the top 10. They are so incredibly rich.

Oh, they appear in many people's top 10 scores on this board. Just not mine. ;)

TOD is 21 on my list and ROTJ 22.

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What's your least favorite thing/score JW composed?

I'd say the only thing I don't like is the new celebration

music for the end of ROTJ, from the mid-90s. I hate it. :shakehead:

Went straight into the trash compactor.

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What's your least favorite thing/score JW composed?

There are some scores that don't appeal to me. The Patriot for example (apart from the love theme) sounds a bit generic to me. I cannot connect emotionally with a score like Always, and I don't understand all the fuss about 1941. I would never call them bad compositions though.

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THE PATRIOT didn't seem to be fleshed out, as a whole.

That particular Love Theme is one of my all time favorites,

however! Sadly, it's very rarely performed live.

Apart from the synthesizer stuff, ALWAYS has lots of nice

"the american woods" music in it, just as HEARTBEEPS,

and I find these parts very evocative and effective.

"1941" is a very rich score - but you must embrace its

comical "impertinence" (as JW would say). It's very pushy

and cartoonish, like the film. Williams gets a chance to

quote and celebrate all kinds of musical references in

there (even some Ron Goodwinisms). Something he

rarely gets a chance to do.

I never got one cue in "Memoirs of a Geisha". It's used

during the scene with the scarf/or handkerchief. It's a

piece that is so mega-subtle that it didn't work at all, if

you ask me. I can't even remember its name.

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THE PATRIOT didn't seem to be fleshed out, as a whole.

That particular Love Theme is one of my all time favorites,

however! Sadly, it's very rarely performed live.

Apart from the synthesizer stuff, ALWAYS has lots of nice

"the american woods" music in it, just as HEARTBEEPS,

and I find these parts very evocative and effective.

"1941" is a very rich score - but you must embrace its

comical "impertinence" (as JW would say). It's very pushy

and cartoonish, like the film. Williams gets a chance to

quote and celebrate all kinds of musical references in

there (even some Ron Goodwinisms). Something he

rarely gets a chance to do.

I never got one cue in "Memoirs of a Geisha". It's used

during the scene with the scarf/or handkerchief. It's a

piece that is so mega-subtle that it didn't work at all, if

you ask me. I can't even remember its name.

The 'Confluence' scene alone is one of the best scored scenes of Williams' career.

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I never saw the film.(why would i) but Confluence is a fantastic cue.

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My absolute favorite John Williams track of the Noughties

is a cue from "Minority Report": A NEW BEGINNING, which

gets totally buried under lots and lots of underscore on the

album.

It's even better in a little known re-recording performed by

the City Of Prague Philharmonic Orchestra. Just great.

Believe me. I listened to this version a estimated hundred-

thousand times...

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I liked The Patriot (despite the lack of originality). I really enjoyed that score!

As for weaker Williams Scores. I'm not the biggest fan of Always, and 1941's pushy comedic marches are really too much for me to handle. Also never found much to get out of Heartbeeps.

But Memoirs of a Geisha is a brilliant score! And as others have mentioned, Confluence is one his best scored scenes in his career.

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@Stefan Cosman

It's not the "Confluence" cue, for sure.

But I can't stand that particular track (whatever it's

called).

The rest of "Geisha" is fantastic, for sure! I think one

can't discuss about that.

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I never got one cue in "Memoirs of a Geisha". It's used

during the scene with the scarf/or handkerchief. It's a

piece that is so mega-subtle that it didn't work at all, if

you ask me. I can't even remember its name.

As the water. That's by far my favorite scene in the movie and one of the most stunning marriages of image and music I have ever seen. I'm shocked you'd bring this scene up as a example of what you didn't like in Memoirs

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@Merkel

I'm not sure if it really was that scene - i saw the film while

having a heavy workload. Six years ago, just once.

I think the cue was also featured (or just talked about) in

the i-tunes special session with Williams and Yo-Yo Ma,

not on the OST.

I have kept most of the tracks of the OST, but not that

particular one. I thought it was "l'art pour l'art" at its most

offensive. Music for musicians only. Artsy fartsy.

Maybe it's just me, and I just don't have emotions.

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What I cannot understand is how "Return of the Jedi" or "Temple

of Doom" never show up in the top 10. They are so incredibly rich.

In my opinion TOD is the second best score JW ever composed (only TESB is better).

It's also in a lot of top 10 or top 5 lists. So you are not alone ;)

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We've got "Cinque's Theme" which clearly foreshadows "Anakin's Theme" but stands

on its own as one of Williams' saddest compositions. Very rich.

The choir pieces are obviously modelled after Hans Zimmer's

"The Lion King" which were also the temp track (you can clearly

hear Williams channeling Zimmer, who outpassed him, popularity-

wise, in the 90s, during that time).

The similarities between Lion King and Amistad seem pretty superficial. Zimmer wasn't the first to use African choirs.

What's your least favorite thing/score JW composed?

I'd say the only thing I don't like is the new celebration

music for the end of ROTJ, from the mid-90s. I hate it. :shakehead:

I love the new celebration music. I think it was very clever of Williams to conclude the saga with Luke and Leia's theme, signifying the new beginning for the characters (especially the main ones).

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Thanks, SF1_freeze!

Actually I was close to visiting my shrink in Bespin.

He's bald and always wears kinda headphones.

Perhaps he knows something about music...

But then you cheered me up again!

@indy4

Temp tracks are superficial per se. But sometimes this practice generates

little masterpieces itself, when composers are forced to capture their style.

As happened with Christopher Young who had his movie "Jennifer 8" temp

tracked with John Williams' "Presumed Innocent". A whole new Christopher

Young style evolved out of that (moody tunes for piano)!

Talking "Jedi"

Forgive me my ignorance, but did I miss the "Luke and Leia" theme in

the "Victory Celebration", 1997 special edition?

It's the "Emperor's Theme" that makes an unexpected appearance

in "Augie's Great Municipal Band", where it is interpolated, hiding

behind the samba bass lines. And that happens to be at the end of

Episode One. Not Six.

I should know that.

I was under contract,

as a conductor, for this band.

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@indy4

Temp tracks are superficial per se. But sometimes this practice generates

little masterpieces itself, when composers are forced to capture their style.

As happened with Christopher Young who had his movie "Jennifer 8" temp

tracked with John Williams' "Presumed Innocent". A whole new Christopher

Young style evolved out of that (moody tunes for piano)!

Talking "Jedi"

Forgive me my ignorance, but did I miss the "Luke and Leia" theme in

the "Victory Celebration", 1997 special edition?

The main theme from "Victory Celebration" is derived from Luke and Leia's theme. The first five notes are the same.

I should know that.

I was under contract,

as a conductor, for this band.

You led the LSO? That's awesome!

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The Band was fun, until Palpatine blew up the senate and

crashed Corruscant. As a result, prices for musicians on

the planet were spoiled, and the band split up.

Moved to Bespin. Same story.

LOL!

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The main theme from "Victory Celebration" is derived from Luke and Leia's theme. The first five notes are the same.

The Flying Theme from E.T. is derived from the Star Wars Main Theme. The first five notes are the same ;)

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The main theme from "Victory Celebration" is derived from Luke and Leia's theme. The first five notes are the same.

I'm not a big fan of the Victory Celebration cue either. Similarly, I never liked the Augie's Municipal Band cue from the Phantom Menace very much. But I thought it was brilliant how Williams used the Emperor's theme in that track.

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Well, Palpatine played it to us, ten minutes before the

show started, as a temp track.

Sometimes you've got no choice.

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The Band was fun, until Palpatine blew up the senate and

crashed Corruscant. As a result, prices for musicians on

the planet were spoiled, and the band split up.

Moved to Bespin. Same story.

LOL!

:lol:

The main theme from "Victory Celebration" is derived from Luke and Leia's theme. The first five notes are the same.

The Flying Theme from E.T. is derived from the Star Wars Main Theme. The first five notes are the same ;)

:lol: Wow, I never realized that...still, I think that Victory Celebration is derived from Luke and Leia, as Williams is a big fan of deriving minor themes from major ones. And of course, Luke and Leia is derived from Leonard Bernstein's "Make Our Garden Grow." ;)

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The main theme from "Victory Celebration" is derived from Luke and Leia's theme. The first five notes are the same.

The Flying Theme from E.T. is derived from the Star Wars Main Theme. The first five notes are the same ;)

:lol: Wow, I never realized that...

That's because you hadn't been hearing the SW theme for 5 years before E.T.'s Flying Theme aired on the radio... ;)

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The main theme from "Victory Celebration" is derived from Luke and Leia's theme. The first five notes are the same.

The Flying Theme from E.T. is derived from the Star Wars Main Theme. The first five notes are the same ;)

By that token, you could say that the first five notes of both E.T. and Star Wars are derived from Dvorak's Dumky Trio :P

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As a Williams fan since probobly.....BIRTH i am very suprised that i agree with the comment that war horse and tin tin are not in my top 20, HOWEVER, it could be that ive been so hyped up about these two scores to come out for about three years that nothing could live up to the expectations. What i found strange about tin tin, was that some of the cues sounded like a meshing of a bunch of cues from other movies, going beyond his "style" but really just unoriginal sounding. still loved the score though

Amistad- dont really agree about the whole lion king bit. even though im a big fan of the lion king score, i cant really see him knocking off zimmer. They both have kind of an ethnic African quality to them ( as far as i know, being a Yank and all) but williams score is so much more developed....plus zimmer didnt even write what the african singers sang, and i dont thin elton did either for that matter....

As far as Licoln goes im still very excited as always to hear new music from Williams. Even though the two new scores were not my favorite, i still appreciate them and his music still gives something to me that no other composer can

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I wish the themes were a bit better.

What?

If they were any better, they ruptured the space-time continuum.

What I cannot understand is how "Return of the Jedi" or "Temple

of Doom" never show up in the top 10. They are so incredibly rich.

Oh, they appear in many people's top 10 scores on this board. Just not mine. ;)

Temple Of Doom certainly belongs in the Top 10, but certainly not RotJ. It's not that it's a bad score, it's just that Williams wrote at least 10 better ones.

The things Williams does in RotJ with existing themes doesn't sound very interesting to me, and the new music is in no way on par with the first two films, save for "Luke & Leia".

And the Ewok music is a major turn off for me, to put it mildly. Not Williams' fault probably, but still annoying.

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@Stefan Cosman

It's not the "Confluence" cue, for sure.

But I can't stand that particular track (whatever it's

called).

The rest of "Geisha" is fantastic, for sure! I think one

can't discuss about that.

i think the cue youre talking about is " A Dream Discarded"

The main theme from "Victory Celebration" is derived from Luke and Leia's theme. The first five notes are the same.

The Flying Theme from E.T. is derived from the Star Wars Main Theme. The first five notes are the same ;)

im not sure what you mean by et and starwars......only the first two notes are the same and not really, just move by the same interval. et for example, starts on C goes up a fifth to G and then to F,E,D,E,C and then down a fourth to G. Star Wars ( if it starts on see) goes up by a fifth to G and then goes up a fourth to C. just a technicality i guess....

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May you be kind enough to enlight me, please: who is Mr Richardson? It's the first time I hear about him.

Is he to John Williams what Lois Carruth was to the late Jerry Goldsmith?

Thx.

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