The Doctor Who Thread.....

[Thor 7,471]

I'm not a fan of Moffat's WHO style (I far preferred Davies) and didn't much care for the finale either. Too many unresolved points, and it didn't go full circle the way it was set up. Too confusing, too many references to things you've forgotten about or haven't been told properly.

If it was just the Who "robot" being killed, then why did it spew out his life force? If his death was a fixed point in time, then how come it was sufficient to kill a robot bearing his resemblance? How did he escape from a "dead robot" afterwards? How could a wedding between him and River fix things? etc. ,etc.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Very entertaining, also very confusing.

Plotwise it sort of works if you don't mull over it for too long.

The final scene seems to announce a change. The Doctor has been to visible, made too many enemies. Does this mean the next season he will go into undercover mode?

I disagree with Thor and think that the arc episodes of this season are too much RTD.

Amy killing eye-patch lady was good. Amy imagining her Rory as a hot stud was good. Seeing a cameo from Dickens was fun.

The big arc this season never really got it's feet on the ground properly.

First Amy and Rory knew The Doctor was dying and did not want to tell him. Then the Doctor found out by accident when Amy thought she was talking to the Flesh version of him, and he barely seemed to respond. Then finally he found out the exact circumstances of his death in "Let's Kill Hitler" and actually hid that fact from Amy and Rory, who no longer seemed troubled by his impending death even though it had greatly troubled them at the beginning of the season.

In this finale The Doctor starts out wanting to fight his odds, then he calls for The Brigadier from the old show, finds out that he's no longer alive and he seems to resign to his fate. (maybe for long-time Whovians this is a poignant moment, but for others it's just confusing)

How did The Doctor find himself to be imprisoned by Caesar/Winston?

After a full season The Silence return, but we still don't know what exactly their motivation is. The thing is, I don't think we ever will. Like we will never know why the Tardis exploded. It's been glossed over and Moffat is already working on his new Arc for next year. Who is the Doctor?

The question is Doctor Who? What can that mean?

If It's about The Doctor's name, which really is not very interesting. And I fail to see why answering that question would cause the Silence to fall.

We finally know the enigma of River Song, and it really isn't all that stunning. It was brilliant in Silence In The Library/Forest Of The Dead, a mysterious women who knew more about The Doctor then he himself did. It was milked effectively in season 5, and Alex Kingston made a great addition to the cast.

The current status between her and The Doctor is that they are somehow married and are having adventures together. Maybe in the next season we shall see their goodbye scene were she accepts the assignment to explore the Library. We strictly don't need to see it, since we know what is going to happen anyway.

I've been reading that the production was having issues this year. Piers Morgan....eeehhh Wenger had to leave due to allegations of excessive spending. Maybe the budget ran out and they could not do a 2 parter for the finale.

Has anyone noticed that Moffat only wrote 2 episodes in the second part of this season, and they are the 2 least satisfying ones?

[edit]

Writer Gareth Roberts confirmed in an interview that this is indeed two hundred years after The God Complex for the Doctor, and that he spent these years "waving" at Amy and Rory through history books.

Two hundred years of the Doctors personal time must have passed from The God Complex to Closing Time, right?

Now he has not aged (even though Amy makes a reference his him looking older). Of course this really is not that much of a flaw since we don't really know much about how a Time-Lord ages physically.

It does beg the question what exactly The Doctor has been doing for 200 years? Has he taken no companions until Craig (seems out of character) Has he had no mad, bold adventures (again, seems out of character)

[Brónach 1,301]

If it was just the Who "robot" being killed, then why did it spew out his life force?

To simulate the regeneration. It was all prepared.

If his death was a fixed point in time, then how come it was sufficient to kill a robot bearing his resemblance? How did he escape from a "dead robot" afterwards?

Because the death of the robot was the fized point in time, and the public death of the Doctor. Everyone expected some sort of fantasy/sci-fi solution but Moffat got philosophical: what is History?

The Doctor escaped in the TARDIS, he had landed in the eye of the robot.

How could a wedding between him and River fix things? etc. ,etc.

This was explained in the episode but I lost track of things. Apparently them touching returned things to normal for soem reason I can't remember. There's two things going on: the Doctor avoiding his death and cleaning up the mess of River breaking some sort of causality. River not killing the Doctor is the equivalent of the TARDIS exploding that creates the mad world that must be averted. But to avert it, she's got to kill him and make the fixed point and the whole causality happen, but she doesn't want to because she loves him and she's all psychotic. So the Doctor uses the wedding to let her know that he's going to survive to let the event happen, so they kiss and the everything is fixed and we think the Doctor is dead but actually we know he isn't. Same as the Big Bang, Doctor dying fixes things, Doctor manages to survive with River's help.

This should have seriously been in two episodes...

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Writer Gareth Roberts confirmed in an interview that this is indeed two hundred years after The God Complex for the Doctor, and that he spent these years "waving" at Amy and Rory through history books.

Two hundred years of the Doctors personal time must have passed from The God Complex to Closing Time, right?

Now he has not aged (even though Amy makes a reference his him looking older). Of course this really is not that much of a flaw since we don't really know much about how a Time-Lord ages physically.

It does beg the question what exactly The Doctor has been doing for 200 years? Has he taken no companions until Craig (seems out of character) Has he had no mad, bold adventures (again, seems out of character)

We do know a little about how timelords age. The first Doctor aged gracefully for 500 years or so, gradually becoming the silver-haired William Hartnell by the time we meet him in "An Unearthly Child". We know Timelords begin life as babies, then grow into children like humans (we saw the Doctor's crib in "A Good Man Goes To War", and then see The Master as a child looking into the abyss in "Last of the Timelords"). Once they become adults I think we're supposed to believe that they stop aging like humans and instead age very slowly, each regeneration having the ability to reach over 500 years old before dying of old-age and regenerating into the next. However, there's an anomaly here. In The Sound of Drums, the Master artificially ages David Tennent's Doctor by 100 years, making Tennent appear extremely ancient and wrinkly. However, the first Doctor was about 500 throughout his tenure and didn't look all that ancient, so I'm not sure about that. Conversely, Matt Smith's Doctor looks no different after he's aged 200 years, when surely he should have started looking grey and Hartnell-esque. It's all very confusing and contradictory.

I just find fault with The Wedding of River Song for essentially jumping the shark about 5 times in the same episode. The Doctor gets married!!! The Doctor ages 200 years!!! The Doctor's death becomes a focal point of the entire universe, and without his death the universe ends!!! This is all sooo bleeding over the top that it's a bit stupid, isn't it? The original series managed to tell good, solid sci-fi tales without having to resort to such ridiculously OTT plot points and revelations. Much as I hate to say it, Moffatt really seems to have forgotten that complexity is NOT a substitute for sophistication. Please PLEASE can we get back to good, solid stories next year, and stop filling each episode with new tanks of sharks to jump?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I just find fault with The Wedding of River Song for essentially jumping the shark about 5 times in the same episode. The Doctor gets married!!! The Doctor ages 200 years!!!

Actually the Doctor was already 200 years older in Closing Time.

[Wycket 36]

I guess I'm in the minority but I thought the episode was perfectly fine and a satisfying conclusion to a jumbled season.

Would I have liked at least 5 more minutes to let the episode breath? Yes, but I felt the episode moved at a good consistent paced and felt the most cinematic of any Who story yet (and not just forced cinematic like RTD tried to do in the End of Time). I had no problems understanding the episode and was actually surprised that the Tessalector was the resolution, as I completely let it slip my mind. I think that everyone was expecting some kind of big technobabble explanation, but Moffat took the simple route which I felt really worked. As for the marriage, the Doctor clearly cares for River and he realized that she really wanted to be closer to the Doctor so he put his trust in her hands. Let's not forget, he married Marilyn Monroe in A Christmas Carol so obviously marriage isn't exactly a big deal to the doc.

Overall, I really liked the conclusion as he was likely giving more hints to Smith's run and eventual regeneration, which likely won't take place until 2013 (Smith doesn't seem dumb enough to leave before the massive exposure the show will get in the anniversary season). As for the TARDIS exploding, I've just assumed that it was The Silence, hence the whole "Silence Will Fall" bit. They've been tied to 11 since the Eleventh Hour so I think that we'll learn everything about them and their role in 11's life by his regeneration. They seem inexplicably tied to his Doctor so I have no problem waiting to find out more about them.

And just a quick check on something pixie said, but I believe that The Master aged 10 to his "real age", not simply a hundred years. If Hartnell was 450-500 years old at his regeneration, I see nothing wrong with Smith not noticeably aging in 200 years, as Hartnell wasn't that old when he was on the show. He was in his 50s I believe and just looked older likely due more to the b&w and his bumbling more than anything. Since Timelords age very slowly over their adult years, there's nothing to say that they don't age rapidly over their elderly years.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Oh I agree that is was a very enjoyable episode.

You just have to gloss past rather a lot.

And 200 years on a farewell tour just seems out of character.

[Brónach 1,301]

Who says it's 200 years of farewell tour. It's 200 years of his regular life or whatever. We just don't know about it.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Since when has the Doctor had a regular life? Everywhere he lands he has a whopping great adventure and saves people/species.

Wycket, good points about the Doctor's aging. I could live with the Master aging the Doctor to his "real" age, ie over 700 years. As if all those years plus the extra hundred were suddenly heaped onto the 10th body. Yeah, that works I guess.

[Richard Penna 3,673]

I have plenty of thoughts, but need time to get it on screen. My latest editing project means it might take a while...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Since when has the Doctor had a regular life? Everywhere he lands he has a whopping great adventure and saves people/species.

Wycket, good points about the Doctor's aging. I could live with the Master aging the Doctor to his "real" age, ie over 700 years. As if all those years plus the extra hundred were suddenly heaped onto the 10th body. Yeah, that works I guess.

I have a very strong suspicion that when The Impossible Astronaut was shooting, Moffat did not have an ending in mind, and if he did...it was not the ending that we saw in The Wedding of River Song.

The Teselecta seem like a last minute addition to get a duplicate of the Doctor at Lake Silencio.

I'm still not sure why Canton Delaware was invited to The Doctor's Death. I figured we would see him in more episodes this year.

Maybe Moffat wanted to devote more episodes in the season to his Arc, but the BBC demanded otherwise.

But the main issue is that the last few episodes go with the conceit that The Doctor will die, while we already know that he won't die because that will be the end of the show. It's like Star Trek Voyager doing a show about getting back to Earth in season 2. We know the show has 5 more to go so why bother?

Does anyone else think the last 5 minutes of the this season felt like a Moffat will to some extent reboot next year?

[Brónach 1,301]

Since when has the Doctor had a regular life? Everywhere he lands he has a whopping great adventure and saves people/species.

That's what I meant

I have a very strong suspicion that when The Impossible Astronaut was shooting, Moffat did not have an ending in mind, and if he did...it was not the ending that we saw in The Wedding of River Song.

The Teselecta seem like a last minute addition to get a duplicate of the Doctor at Lake Silencio.

I'm still not sure why Canton Delaware was invited to The Doctor's Death. I figured we would see him in more episodes this year.

Maybe Moffat wanted to devote more episodes in the season to his Arc, but the BBC demanded otherwise.

Moffat has said that he doesn't plan too much in advance, because he might not be sure of what actors, location etc are going to be available. I imagine he has different "theories" himself and chooses the one that comes handy.

But it's true that he wrote six episodes for series 5 instead of five like this one.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Moffat has said that he doesn't plan too much in advance, because he might not be sure of what actors, location etc are going to be available.

That's actually not a very good thing if you are writing a multi season story arc.

Battlestar Galactica is an example. They wrote themselves in a corner and changed their concept several times. They even had to make a separate TV movie to fit the seasons together.

[Brónach 1,301]

I think he's planning an story arc on the Doctor's identity now. The thing about the name came up in Silence of the Library I think and now it's a question that "shouldn't be anwered". Why?

Moffat writes this as a fan, in the end he's basically playing and questioning the mythology of the show. I.e.: what happens if you rewrite a fixed point?

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Interesting, but I still think the show needs to get away from being so Doctor-centric. It's high time the focus was put back on the mystery of traveling the universe of time and space, and less on soap-opera revelations about the main characters. Also, I'm not sure I'm happy with the idea of Moffatt rewriting the Doctor's identity so much. I think he has a responsibility to the last 50 years of the show. He needs to respect that the Doctor has to remain a little mysterious and start focusing on his adventures instead of making the Doctor himself the reason (and blame) for all the terrible events in the universe. Much as I love Matt Smith's portrayal, I miss the RTD approach.

[Brónach 1,301]

But that what he has done. The Doctor had become a name that could stop an army with an speech, so he gave him a fake death and the idea that he has to step back into the shadows.

I doubt they're going to reveal anything about his identity, probably just play around with the fact that they can't reveal anything.

By the way I was thinking. River sends a message everywhere in time with the message "the Doctor is dying, please help". And the reaction could be something like "Doctor who?", hence the "first question"

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I miss the RTD approach.

I don't. I was watching The End Of Time a few days ago.

It's really a huge mess. The Master has Force Lightning, For some reason everyone on Earth start to look like him. Timothy Dalton is underused, There are far too many characters, and the Doctor dies because he goes inside a glass booth.

All the scenes between Wilf and The Doctor are great, so is the final 5 minutes. But a lot of it is a huge, overindulgent mess.

The biggest differece between RTD's arcs and Moffat's ones are that RDT puts hints rather subtly throughout the season (Bad Wolf, Torchwood, Saxon etc) and does not start to put everything together untill the season finale.

Moffat develops his arc throughout the season, even letting it interfere otherwise unrelated stories (The cracks in time appearing in "Cold Blood" for example)

So RTD's season 4 finale is a real bloated mess, but the rest of season is relatively unscathed despite of it.

[Wojo 2,453]

By the way I was thinking. River sends a message everywhere in time with the message "the Doctor is dying, please help". And the reaction could be something like "Doctor who?", hence the "first question"

I about fell out of my chair during this season's pilot when he was having fun in the time of Louis XIV (I think), and one of the goons barges in asking for the Doctor, and the lady sweetly asks "Doctor who?"

I have missed just about every episode this season after the one with the space nurse, and all the meaningful ones between the first Weeping Angel episode and the finale from last season, so I will be looking for these on DVD to rent. Every time BBC America runs reruns, they are either the first five from last season, or the same handful of David Tenant eps over and over.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,502]

I think he's planning an story arc on the Doctor's identity now. The thing about the name came up in Silence of the Library I think and now it's a question that "shouldn't be anwered". Why?

Moffat writes this as a fan, in the end he's basically playing and questioning the mythology of the show. I.e.: what happens if you rewrite a fixed point?

It's not that the question shouldn't be answered, more like, it can't be answered. In Gallifreyan, The Doctor's name is a mathematical formular, that is unpronunceable in any other language.

[Brónach 1,301]

I don't think it's about the name, I think it's something else going on.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

What did people think of the music this season? Overall t was good, as always. but did not sound very different from last seasons.

I think they could have done a little bit less obvious tracking of season 5 music.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,502]

I don't think it's about the name, I think it's something else going on.

You're probably right.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The more I think about the, the more I'm convinced that Moffat has closed the book on Amy, Rory and River Song.

The Doctor did have adventures during his 200 years. In fact his marriage with River Song took place in that period (Jim The Fish), and that means that whole chapter is closed.

The new season will focus on The Silence, The Question and feature a new companion.

[Brónach 1,301]

What if the Doctor himself from the future blew up the TARDIS to achieve something thinking he had already solved that anyway?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Who knows, at this point?

[pixie_twinkle 48]

I'm all for the hinted-at reboot. I'm definitely ready for a more traditional season than this last one. Having said that, I enjoyed every episode this year (with the possible exception of the Curse of the Black Spot). It's such a contradictory show for me right now. I hugely enjoy every minute of each episode, but then feel frustrated and confused when it finishes. This season has been an intense mixture of huge doses of fun and enormous helpings of plot-hole frustration. I just bloody wish the Moff would finish just ONE of his plotlines occasionally. He used to be able to do that beautifully. The Girl in the Fireplace: What a complex story, what a beautiful episode, what a tearjerking final revelation. Beautiful. Perfect. So much better structured than the huge mess of a story we seem to still be in at the moment. If, as Steef suggests, the whole River, Amy, Rory story is finished, and we are going to move on (which I kind of hope is true), then WHY does it all feel so unsatisfying and unresolved?

[Brónach 1,301]

Well Amy and Rory's seem well resolved to me.

The problem here is that there's a distictintion between "arc episodes" and independent episodes. It shouldn't be like that, it would feel more more satisfying if it was a continuous, like in the series 5.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I agree with Pixie Baker. It feels like Moffat was making it up as he went along.

River said she had to fake not knowing anything about what was going to happen at the Lake.

That just feels false. The way she acted after Doc died, and when the younger version showed up in the diner felt like genuine shock.

[Brónach 1,301]

Maybe they deleted her memory.

I still don't understand why she's in prison anyway. And how the world (Teselecta etc) know about the Doctor's death. And why the astronaut thing to kill the Doctor.

I really really think Moffat was going a different route at first.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

River was in jail for killing the doctor.

[Brónach 1,301]

Controlled by a manipulated spacesuit created by a religious order intending to kill the Doctor, in which she was put against her will?

And how did she end up in jail anyway? The Silence drove her to the nearest police office, said she was a murderer and got away? And then River kept returning to jail for whatever reason everytime she escaped?

AMaybe I just don't see it, but all this doesn't make any sense to me.

[Wycket 36]

I don't think River was faking it as he told her while she was in the suit that she wouldn't remember being there the first time. As for the Ponds, while I think their story is done I don't think they are as both Karen and Arthur have said they will appear in Series 7, although not full time. I have no problem with River returning, hell I wouldn't mind if she was a full-time companion, but I wish moms and dads would stay away. I thought they had a great send-off in The God Complex, and there they were two episodes in a row. I hope they don't become like Rose and Moffat can't let them go, but I'm afraid. If he didn't want them to leave let, why do The God Complex?

As for River in jail, she's keeping up the facade that the Doctor is dead as far as the Silence are concerned. The Doctor picks her up all the time and has adventures so I doubt she minds all that much that she goes back to the Stormcage. Hell, a girl's gotta sleep sometimes, plus she gets the satisfaction of continuously breaking out and annoying the guards.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I agree with Pixie Baker. It feels like Moffat was making it up as he went along.

He definitely was, he even admitted it. I'm fine with that, as long as the story doesn't get too convoluted. Which it did.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Where did he admit it? Is there an interview online? I'd be quite interested to read that.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

9 Amy Ponds

http://whatthecurtains.tumblr.com/post/11006435183/9-times-amy-ponds-hair-is-the-main-focus-when-it

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

You cant make up a season arc as you go along. This is my authors when writing a book do a first draft, second draft, make revisions, tighten up things etc....

[Naïve Old Fart 9,502]

What's all this about a "hinted-at reboot"? I wouldn't mind if Moffatt got the (re)boot, geddit? "Doctor Who" is great fun, but it was never meant to be as confusing as this. I sincerely hope that I never see the Ponds again. Bring back companions with brains...or Zoe in a spangly catsuit...or both!

[Wycket 36]

Why do people have such a hard time following the plot? While it may be convoluted at times, its nothing too complicated for an adult to follow at all. I think Moffat has done great for the show as he got away from that campy feel that RTD insisted needed to be part of the show. The show now is fun, but not cheesy, which is what it always should have been and I definitely don't want Moffat to go anywhere, though he definitely should give a little more focus to this season.

As for Zoe in a catsuit, I'm all for it. As long as its not modern day Zoe, of course.

[Brónach 1,301]

I don't find it hard to follow, I'm just a nitpicker jerk.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It's not hard to follow, but if you scrutenize it, it does not make a lot of sense.

But the same could be said for the RTD era.

Maybe the format of Doctor Who gives writers too much freedom of choice, Basically everything is possible, because you can ignore the laws of science.

And as someone said above, both Moffat and RTD are hard core fans, living their dream of making Doctor Who. They want to make their mark, do it they way they always envisioned it. This has both positives and negatives.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

He's tweeted a couple of times in response to people who ask about his writing style. I'm sure he plots some things in advance, but stuff like River's true identity was not set in place until halfway through season 5.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

It's not hard to follow, but if you scrutenize it, it does not make a lot of sense.

And unfortunately the convolution of many of this season's storylines means that you HAVE to scutenize them to try and make sense of them. And then the plotholes appear. Don't get me wrong, the pacing, dialogue, and sophistication of Moffat's writing is terrific. It's just the details of the actual plots that have suddenly taken a bit of a nosedive. Moffatt is brilliant at writing individual complex stories that manage to wrap up beautifully at the end, like the aforementioned Girl in the Fireplace, or the incredibly well-done Silence in the Library 2-parter. I just think he needs to stop holding too many plot points over in story-arc fashion, because he doesn't seem to be very good at coming back to them and concluding them in a satisfactory manner, if he comes back to them at all.

[Brónach 1,301]

Well we have two examples of Moffat's long arcs. One of them made me me a fan: I thought it was really fun, clever and creative; it really hit hard my inner fantasy fan/wannabe writer. And the other was disappointing to me as I was expecting the same quality. It reatins clearly the same imagiantion behind it, but it doesn't make much sense and it's executon onscreen is nowhere as effective as the previous season (they still haven't figured out how to put the Silence onscreen for example).

To be honest I don't care much about who blew up the TARDIS. I'm more put off by this series 6, despite having two or three amazing episodes.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

You cant make up a season arc as you go along. This is my authors when writing a book do a first draft, second draft, make revisions, tighten up things etc....

Voyager, LOST, ALIAS, Buffy, Angel, Fringe and Doctor Who would like to have a word with you.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

I gave up watching Lost after the first season because the story arc literally "lost" its way.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Battlestar Galactica is the worst offender for me. That must have changed it way 4 times in the last 2 seasons.

[Jay 37,290]

Why does a show changing its way have to be viewed as a bad thing?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It doesn't have to be. But if it spends a lot of time setting up plot elements and then discards them, them it becomes an annoyance to viewers who were interested in seeing how things were gonna work out.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

To be fair, TV shows have any number of variables that can affect the outcome of a planned storyline - actors (pregnancies, illness, personal issues), budgetary issues (which was apparently plaguing Who this year), interference from studios etc. TV writers don't have all the same luxuries as book authors, and aren't limited only by their imagination. And a whole lot of this likely happens without us knowing.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

In the end it's all about what ends up on screen. Excuses be damned!