Does ESB end w/ Luke's theme or Vader's?

[stewdog1 50]

Roald has mentioned in his ROTS review thread that ESB ends on a high note by ending with Luke's theme. I agree, but I don't think that is the last theme quoted.

I believe that the first 3 or 4 notes of the Imperial March is actually the final theme, or rather partial theme in the End Credits.

What do you guys think? If it's what I think it is, it is a stroke of genious how it is hidden amongst the timpanis and just after Luke's theme.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I've listened a half a dozen times, don't here it, at what point in the recording are you talking about, and what recording/version are you talking about?

[stewdog1 50]

It's the last three horn notes on the End Credits. I believe all versions are the same, but I'm using the SE.

[Trumpeteer 302]

It's the Imperial March. Look in the 1997 release's liner notes.

Jeff -- grateful there's at least one good thread not directly related to Ep. 3

[Lurker 5]

It's the Imperial March. Look in the 1997 release's liner notes.

Jeff -- grateful there's at least one good thread not directly related to Ep. 3

Thanks for sticking with the board!

Neil

[Erik Woods 555]

Is it not the Rebel Fanfare!?

-Erik-

[stewdog1 50]

Is it not the Rebel Fanfare!?

-Erik-

Nope.

[benefactor 3]

This is probably more hidden than Emperor’s theme in Augie Municipal Band. Very subtle. But if you wish you can find it.

Vader's theme' 4 notes exactly (E-E-E-C).

But there is absolutely no Luke's theme at the end.

[John Crichton 4]

This is one "hidden theme" in SW that I have yet to be able to hear. :?

[stewdog1 50]

Once you hear it, you can't miss it.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

give us a time on the clock to listen for.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

6:02 - 6:08 on the SE. Listen to the orchestra crashes behind the fanfare.

[bondo 33]

You're right, it's the first 4 notes of Darth Vader's theme!

[Erik Woods 555]

Pretty cool... very cool actually!

-Erik-

[bondo 33]

Indeed! Thanks for pointing that out, I never would've noticed that... ever

[King Mark 3,631]

Yes,but I think it's just a coincidence.

K.M.

[Falstaft 2,132]

Agreed -- coincidence. Without a G following the C to corroborate a statement of the Imperial March, it's just a matter of JW providing a strong support for the chordal roots of the underlying progression (I-bVI-I). I'd be quicker to call EEEC a quote of Beethoven's 5th than Vader's theme. But cool observation nonetheless.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

I read about it in the liner notes when I first got the CD and have thought that it's brilliant ever since.

Ray Barnsbury - who imagines it was intentional

[SturgisPodmore 0]

Indeed, I just listened to the End Credits and heard it. It's a stroke of genious from Williams.

This is one of the great things that separates Williams from everyone else, his hidden musical quotes. This and the one in Augie (which does exist).

~Sturgis

[bondo 33]

Besides the aforementioned ESB and Augie cues, what other 'hidden musical quotes' are there?

[SturgisPodmore 0]

There's the "Land Race" theme from Far and Away in the "Immigration" piece from American Journey.

~Sturgis, not sure if that's intentional or not, but if it is, it would make sense

[Adam 1]

I think that was probably a case of a temp track that JW followed pretty closely but I could be wrong.

But with regard to the thread title, I've always thought that he was just connecting the finale to that chord progression that gets used so much in the movie. So maybe its a slight allusion in the same way that he uses that progression without actually using the theme at other spots in the movie. But the actual notes are slowed down and using only the first 4 notes would be odd. It just seems like punctuating the orchestral hits with the top note - which happens to be the notes to the theme. But if you wanted to quote the theme you wouldn't cut off the phrase mid-way especially for the grand finale. But maybe someday he can speak to that and confirm it one way or the other, if he still remembers.

- Adam

[John Crichton 4]

Besides the aforementioned ESB and Augie cues, what other 'hidden musical quotes' are there?

Jabba's Theme when he appears at the podrace.

[King Mark 3,631]

Jabba's theme never appeared at the podrace.All those who claim to hear it say so not to sound stupid compared to the first guy who apperently heard it for the first review of the d.d.

K.M.

[John Crichton 4]

I admit when I can't hear something someone else hears. Jabba's Theme is there.

[Adam 1]

I was going to say that the Jabba quote is too overt to be called hidden but I guess KM is proving me wrong on that. ( :

- Adam

[stewdog1 50]

KM, clean out your ears.

[Lurker 5]

Yes,but I think it's just a coincidence.

At the end of the Empire end credits, Williams is clearly pointing the way to the trilogy's conclusion by having the rebel fanfare and subsequent call to battle played in counterpoint with "The Imperial March", ending the score with a musical outline of the story's essential conflict. There is nothing coincidental about. Or so I've been told.

Jabba's theme never appeared at the podrace.

It absolutely 100% sure did.

Neil - wondering if we need a new king

[Adam 1]

I realize now people are talking about the low end orchestra crashes. Its the same chord progression that you'd hear if the melody was going on on top. In other words the bass note of the chords for that theme happens to be the same as the actual theme. So I think its more of a reference to the progression than it is to the theme. Otherwise you'd want to quote the first 6 notes presumably rather than cut off the phrase. But, also, these kinds of things are matters of interpretation - we can't really know unless JW speaks to it.

I feel the same way about a possible new theme for Anakin in AOTC. There's enough differences and similarities that a reasonable person could intepret it either way. I'm skeptical but I can definitely see where people are coming from.

- Adam

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

In think the March in ESB cannot be a coincidence, otherwiese it would not be talked about in the liner notes.

Jabba's theme is in TPM and it is great.

What about arrival at kamino and boba fett pursuit in ESB? This has been discused and though i think it may be intentional, it could also be not.

[Adam 1]

The liner notes mentioned Boba Fett's theme being used in the Cloud City music and, to me, that's an example of why liner notes aren't necessarily correct. Unless the person writing the liner notes has access to information that we don't, its just one person's interpretation which we can try to verify for ourselves.

I basically agree its not a coincidence but I think its more of a general allusion to Imperial March as opposed to a quote of the theme for reasons I stated. It seems like he's referencing the progression in the form of climatic orchestral hits. If he meant to reference the theme all he would have had to do would be add the last two last notes of the phrase. But we don't know for sure.

- Adam

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

The liner notes mentioned Boba Fett's theme being used in the Cloud City music and, to me, that's an example of why liner notes aren't necessarily correct.  Unless the person writing the liner notes has access to information that we don't, its just one person's interpretation which we can try to verify for ourselves.  

- Adam

Well i could hear the relation to both themes and i would agree with mattessino...

And if i remember well, boba;s theme is in cloud city somewhere whne he is marching with the Solo brick

[Adam 1]

Well yes there is the literal using of Boba Fett's theme but the part about him extracting that out into the rest of the cue seems questionable. Boba Fett's theme has a very specific musical identification. And the other music, if anything, returns to that progression I've been mentioning for the Imperial March. So I don't see much of a connection. But, again, these are questions of interpretation. If he didn't know for sure, he should have qualified his statement in the liner notes. And if he did know for sure, it would be interesting to know what info. he had access to that we don't.

- Adam

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I feel the same way about a possible new theme for Anakin in AOTC.

I believe the AotC theme for Anakin can be heard on the RotS album. Check Palpatine's Teachings from 2:05 - 2:13.

I also think JW used a variation of the old Imperial Motif from Star Wars in AotC, when Padmé stands looking over the dead body of Cordé.

[bondo 33]

Jabba's theme is in TPM and it is great.

What track is this on the UE?

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Disc 1, track 32, 0:48 - 1:06

[bondo 33]

Quick answer, thanks!

Once again, I never would have noticed it!

[Lurker 5]

It's really easy to hear when watching the movie. It plays during his entrance. This is not some hidden theme, it plays as the character is shown on-screen.

Neil

[bondo 33]

To me, it sounds buried under the trumpet fanfare, barely noticeable. Kind of a moot point now, since I'll always notice it from this point onward

[Adam 1]

I feel the same way about a possible new theme for Anakin in AOTC.

I believe the AotC theme for Anakin can be heard on the RotS album. Check Palpatine's Teachings from 2:05 - 2:13.

quote]

Well, that's a good ear, I hadn't noticed that. But I think it sounds somewhat connected to the part in AOTC where Palpatine is talking to Anakin early in the film. But I never really heard much of a connection from that to the funeral scene, for example. So it doesn't all add to one theme for Anakin to me. If you compare the cue you referenced with the funeral, I don't think there's a whole lot to unify them. And the other cues that John linked up for us have the solo french horn that bears a resemblance to the funeral music but not really the eerie trumpet music. So I'm not so sure about it.

- Adam

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

The funeral? I have to check that. I know the bit in Palpatine's Teachings is like the part where Anakin talks to Palpy in AotC. That's what I used for reference. I'll check the funeral.

EDIT: I don't think the funeral music quite sounds like this little bit. Could it be there are two variations or something? Hm...

[Adam 1]

I bring it up only because when there was a thread about a new theme for Anakin, that funeral cue and a couple others were used as an example of Anakin's new theme a long with AOTC music that you're talking about. Actually the music in AOTC with the solo trumpet sounds very similar in the beginning to the motif for his mother in AOTC and first used in TPM though I don't see that as deliberate necessarily.

- Adam

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I know. I have that file, but I don't hear a resemblance between the first two clips (which we now know has a statement in RotS as well) and the other two (one of which is the funeral).

[John Crichton 4]

I believe the AotC theme for Anakin can be heard on the RotS album. Check Palpatine's Teachings from 2:05 - 2:13.

I thought I had heard something like that during that somewhere there. Good catch, Marc. I think there's also a couple of times where the Emperor's Theme tries to play in that track, then stops.

And I still stand by my original belief that all four of those statements in Episode II are the same theme. I still even think there's one or two statements on the OST, but I'm still not 100% certain on it. It's just a theme that has a loose structure, somewhat like BotH has turned out to be.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

So am I the only one who heard the Stormtrooper motif in AotC?

[John Crichton 4]

So am I the only one who heard the Stormtrooper motif in AotC?

That's Corde's death, right? There was something about that bit that always bugged the hell out of me, it sounded so familiar. Maybe that's why, I'll check that out. And that piece plays again too, when the Naboo Queen does her "The day we stop believing in democracy..." spiel.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Yeah. Right when Typho tells Padmé they have to go. But I can't quite hear it on Naboo.

[John Crichton 4]

Yeah, I might have mentioned the wrong place there. I know it plays a second time, I can't remember for sure where. I'll check that out too.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I have come with the strange thought that the brass motif from Anakin's Dark Deeds could be a part of shmi's theme. I was humming it and it seemed to, but now im hearing it again and i can really picture it.

Im somewhat tonedeaf sometimes , can anyone try this?

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I thought that too, but I thought I was just imagining things.