Star Wars: Original Trilogy Music Resource

[Jay 37,363]

Also the harp is in the center in some cues, which it should not be.

Yea, that's annoying

[JohnnyD 1,223]

The sound is terrific, but why did those issues with the misplacement of instruments in the sound happen? I would believe that with someone like Michael Matessino, the remastering would have been great.

[Jay 37,363]

The MASTERING was great, the MIXING was not, but not across the board, only for the cues on TESB that were also on the 1994 anthology version. At the last minute, Lucasfilm demanded those cues be remixed, and they quickly were, which resulted in the wrong mix.

These CDs were great at the time, but the standards for catalog film score releases in 1997 was way different than the current standard from 2007-present. They need to be completely revisited, rebuilt from the ground up from better sources than have been used before and completely remastered. And remixed if all the tomlinson mixes cannot be found in appropriate quality.

[The Dark Trilogy 39]

I don't know where the source of that rumor came from - regarding pitch issues. Maybe because the original album and the Anthology have the same pitch and the RCA Special Edition has a different pitch. But I agree, when compared to the film, the pitch is perfect. So I believe the original album and the Anthology suffers from pitch issues, not the SE.

As for the stereo image, it is true but I do not mind. I really like the sound for the new mixes. The only cues I find it a bit disturbing is the Yoda's Theme and Hyperspace. The rest is not that bad. Honestly I didn't realized it until I read it on this forum. I use headphones to listen to my music and I am aware of the american orchestra set-up.

[ymenard 54]

It's not anything about an "american" set-up, it's just the way classical music has been presented for over 300 years now, live and recorded. The stereo spectrum should represent that, which it doesn't in the TESB SE. It's a really weird decision because nobody actually knows why somebody did that. There's no logic to the way the orchestra is presented, especially when it changes throughout the album!

[The Dark Trilogy 39]

It's not anything about an "american" set-up, it's just the way classical music has been presented for over 300 years now, live and recorded.

Wrong. Actually, until the 20th century, the set-up in classical music was different. The 1st violins were left, the 2nd violins right and the cellos in the mid to left. In german it is called "Deutsche Orchesteraufstellung", that means german orchestra set-up, because of the inventor Carl Maria von Weber on his time in Breslau. Willhelm Furtwängler "invented" another set-up, where the violas are on the right and the cellos are left next to the violas. It's called "Furtwängler Aufstellung" (Furtwängler set-up).

Very famous in USA and for the first time by Leopold Stokowski the american set-up (amerikanische Orchesteraufstellung) was born. In the mono recording era you cannot define where the instruments actually are. They decided to use this set-up, because it is easier to handle with. As I said before, the 1st and 2nd violins are now together, whereas the set-up used in classical music it is more difficult. The 1st violins are left and the 2nd are on the right.

I can show you examples if you want. Williams' himself uses the Furtwängler set-up on many Bosten Pops concerts and recordings. With the National Symphony orchestra, I saw that he used the german set-up (I can give you a link if you want, it's online).

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

I tend to associate Stokowski with another set-up (although he had many depending on the acoustics of the hall) - basses at the front, cellos behind on risers, violas on even higher risers, and so on.

[The Dark Trilogy 39]

You could be right, I don't know exactly. Stokowski did a lot of experimental things with the set-up. I know that Wagner used that with the risers.

BTW, I found pictures for all set-ups.

It is a german homepage, unfortunately. But very simple to define which is what. "Europäische Sitzordnung" means european set-up, but that is the german set-up. "Amerikanische Sitzordnung" is the set-up you all know. And the "Variante der amerikanischen Sitzordung" (Variant of the american set-up) is the Furtwängler set-up.

V.1 = 1st violins

V.2 = 2nd violins

Vc. = (Violin-)cello

Kb. = Kontrabass (Contrabass)

Vla. = Violas

[Kendal_Ozzel 36]

So the official Star Wars YouTube channel has started posting From Star Wars to Jedi in parts. I only found out about this today as they posted the second part, which just so happens to be the section that features the film version of "Lapti Nek" and the other Max Rebo Band piece. I made some recordings of these several years ago straight from my VCR, but naturally this digital source sounds considerably better.

[Balahkay 627]

So the official Star Wars YouTube channel has started posting From Star Wars to Jedi in parts. I only found out about this today as they posted the second part, which just so happens to be the section that features the film version of "Lapti Nek" and the other Max Rebo Band piece. I made some recordings of these several years ago straight from my VCR, but naturally this digital source sounds considerably better.

Too bad it isn't in stereo. The music supposedly got lost after the making of the this documentary (not sure if true). About 30 seconds or so of a Max Rebo song can be heard at starwars.com, but it's in mono.

[Faleel 5,348]

Interestingly, I was listening to the Jedi radio drama, and it seems that the music has better sound quality than the RCA's (which apparently only came out a year later!), I would say they are anthology quality, unfortunately the music is buried under SFX and dialogue so only a few snippets are accessible.

Also, the SW dramas have some clean openings/endings (sometimes under dialogue/sfx):

ANH:

Ben's Death
Throne Room
End Credits

ESB:

Main Title
Finale

ROTJ:

The Big Thaw Love Theme insert
Jabba More Sinister insert
The Emperor Arrives second insert
More Trouble
Space Battle

Also the ESB drama has the original end credits without the Yoda's theme insert/extension.

[Faleel 5,348]

STAR WARS

CD Breakdown (1997/2004 Special Edition) and Complete Cue List

Disc One

Track 3 (0:00-1:04) - Imperial Attack

Track 3 (1:04-end) - Artoo's Mission

Track 9 (0:00-2:03) - Ben's Death

Track 9 (2:03-end) - TIE Fighter Attack

I know this is old but two corrections:

Track 3 (0:00-3:38) - The War (You can hear the clean ending in the SW radio drama, Episode 3)

Track 3 (3:38-end) - Escape Hatch (You can hear the clean opening twice in the SW radio drama, Episodes 1 and 4)

Track 9 (0:00-0:36) - Ben's Death

Track 9 (0:37-end) - Here They Come

[Trent B 337]

STAR WARS

CD Breakdown (1997/2004 Special Edition) and Complete Cue List

Disc One

Track 3 (0:00-1:04) - Imperial Attack

Track 3 (1:04-end) - Artoo's Mission

Track 9 (0:00-2:03) - Ben's Death

Track 9 (2:03-end) - TIE Fighter Attack

I know this is old but two corrections:

Track 3 (0:00-3:38) - The War (You can hear the clean ending in the SW radio drama, Episode 3)

Track 3 (3:38-end) - Escape Hatch (You can hear the clean opening twice in the SW radio drama, Episodes 1 and 4)

Track 9 (0:00-0:36) - Ben's Death

Track 9 (0:37-end) - Here They Come

That those four pieces be extracted cleanly?

[Faleel 5,348]

Unfortunately, "The War" and "Escape Hatch" clean openings/endings are buried in dialogue/sfx.

BUT fortunately, they are relatively simple to recreate: the Escape Hatch clean opening by looping the string sustain with Paulstretch, and the clean ending for The War, through reverb and creative editing (Timpani rolls and such).

[Trent B 337]

What about for "Ben's Death" / "Here They Come"?

[Faleel 5,348]

I thought the Anthology/Original Album has the two cues separated enough to be able to extract them without much difficulty?

The radio drama does have those cues separated though, both the clean ending of Ben's Death (albiet with dialogue over top), and the clean opening of Here They Come (starting with taking off from the Death Star) several times, in various different pitches.

[Trent B 337]

I thought the Anthology/Original Album has the two cues separated enough to be able to extract them without much difficulty?

Not really for "Here They Come"....sending PM.

[Datameister 2,042]

For those with taste in music and humor similar to my own:

[Faleel 5,348]

Matessino on the ROTJ End Credits using the ESB version:

I didn't master or do any audio work on them, just guided the assembly and sequencing process, but the "skinny" is that there was no clean end credits available from Jedi, only the album master with the "Ewok Celebration" overlap, so on the S/E release the first six bars of the "End Title" come from Empire.

Mike

[Giftheck 916]

Figured that would have been the case. After all, aren't the masters fot ROTJ supposed to have been lost?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No.

At the time of the SE's they did not have them available though. And used second generation material IIRC.

Better tapes have since resurfaced, as far reported on the FSM MB many years ago. By either Thaxton or Nick Redman.

[Jay 37,363]

So who wants to listen to the track, count the first six bars, and tell us the timestamp where the ESB recording ends?

[Giftheck 916]

So who wants to listen to the track, count the first six bars, and tell us the timestamp where the ESB recording ends?

2:24-2:35.

[Jay 37,363]

Thanks!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

So another 9 seconds of ROTJ music that we need!

These SE's are worse then the LOTR CR's! What a fucking mess.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Jedi Rocks is missing from my hard drive.

[Faleel 5,348]

So another 9 seconds of ROTJ music that we need!

Techinically, we already have it thrice: twice on the anthology, and once in the SE film

[Datameister 2,042]

For those who are both curious and lazy, the main differences in the real ROTJ version are louder woodwinds and a long triangle roll toward the end of the passage.

[Faleel 5,348]

And the more trumpety sound.

[Balahkay 627]

What's the theme that starts at around 1:10?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Balahkay 627]

I didn't think so, but it sounds very familiar.

[Datameister 2,042]

Sorry, not a theme!

[Balahkay 627]

Okay, thanks. Sometimes I have difficulty recognizing less obvious themes, so I thought I'd ask.

[Jilal 569]

Here's a demonstration of my attempt at remastering the RCA release of Star Wars. I recommend viewing the video in HD for the best audio quality. More information can be read in the description.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWKsbYiUCCU

[Balahkay 627]

Is the ESB material on the Anthology set supposed represent how the score should be mixed? I was listening to the audio track on the Blu-ray (specifically "The Duel") and the mix is different than "The Duel" track on the Anthology set. On the Blu-ray the music has more of "stereo" sound than the Anthology set, which was a little more mono sounding when compared to the Blu-ray mix.

[Jay 37,363]

The 1994 anthology set used the Tomlinson film mixes for most cues, yes.

Sometime after the 1997 set better sources were presumably found and used for the 2005 ROTS bonus DVD and the 2011 audio was probably remixed using that as well (I haven't studied it)

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Thaxton reported a better source of ROTJ was found after 1997, but not of TESB.

[Jay 37,363]

Doesn't the Imperial March on the ROTS DVD sound different?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Well wasn't the SE of TESB done using the original mastertapes? So there's no way they could have found a "better" source.

You can make a piece sound different by just remixing it. For me the LLL release if Lair sounds completely different then the OST.

[Jay 37,363]

Yea, I guess the 1997 TESB sounds just fine, other than the remixing and stereo field shrinking of most cues.

I guess I'm just thinking of the bad edit in Imperial March that was fixed for the ROTS dvd

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'm guessing the rushed schedule is the main reason for the way TESB sounds, not the sources used.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I guess I'm just thinking of the bad edit in Imperial March that was fixed for the ROTS dvd

Even if it sounds like it, i have my doubts that the imperial march has that edit.

I mean, the LSO could not play the whole musical cue in one pass??!?! A concert version with no click-track?

I think the cymbal clash ends abruptly because the percusionist put his hand there to stop it (normal thing), and he may have done it too hard ending or better 'cutting' the sound too fast, and nobody noticed during the recording (so the cue was not played again).

I just can't believe a 3 minute concert version would be comprised of several takes.... or by the least that the famed eric tomlison would mix it so badly...

But what do i know, since it seems "duel of the fates" from the OST is a mess edit/takes-wise... :/

[Jim Ware 526]

The 1994 anthology set used the Tomlinson film mixes for most cues, yes.

But has inconsistently flipped stereo channels for some ESB cues.

Well wasn't the SE of TESB done using the original mastertapes?

Only cues present on the original album were remixed from the 24-track tapes.

I'm guessing the rushed schedule is the main reason for the way TESB sounds, not the sources used.

Blame Independence Day.

I mean, the LSO could not play the whole musical cue in one pass??!?! A concert version with no click-track?

It's just the way Williams chooses to assemble definitive presentations of the material.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yep. Like the way the "definitive version" of the Star Wars main titles is a combination of 2 or 3 takes.

JW goes through each track a few times and picks the best of each.

[Balahkay 627]

Well, that's disappointing that the Anthology represents how the score should be mixed and heard because I find the mix of the music on the Blu-ray to be superior in terms of stereo spread.

[Jim Ware 526]

Yep. Like the way the "definitive version" of the Star Wars main titles is a combination of 2 or 3 takes.

JW goes through each track a few times and picks the best of each.

It's interesting to see the different approaches taken - Goldsmith would typically choose a single take, perhaps two, whereas Shore is completely OCD. Williams is somewhere in the middle.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

But after they made the perfect star wars main title in the 1st film, williams seems to have made up his mind for ESB and JEdi, i mean with their slight alterarions, but those cues are one continuous take?

BTW the imperial march is a crime then. And Williams is DEAF if he liked it

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

But after they made the perfect star wars main title in the 1st film, williams seems to have made up his mind for ESB and JEdi, i mean with their slight alterarions, but those cues are one continuous take?

How do you know that?