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A new theory on the AOTC edits


John Crichton

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Hey, loooong time lurker (like since the TPM:UE days), first time poster. Great job on the new site!

I just got a new idea on this whole edits issue. When I was seeing the film again today, I realized that there are really no scenes that are unscored. The Jedi Council scene and the Arena are the only ones I can think of, and the Arena music was tracked out. There are always some scenes that are left unscored, so I really think that most of the scenes where there is tracked music from TPM were originally intended to be unscored, and Lucas decided to go back and put music in late in the game.

And, looking at the number crunching done by The Man John Takis, he says that we have a good 120 min. of original music. Maybe Williams, or even the LSO's, contract said that he could only compose a certain amount of music. Just a crazy thought. But I really think that most of the scenes with TPM music tracked in were intended to be unscored, until Lucas changed his mind at the last second.

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I actually thought of this, but then dismissed it because I wouldn't think that Johnny or Ewok would want to leave such action scenes unscored. But it's possible.

Dan - pleased to know he wasn't the only one to think this

:) "Castle Keep" from Panic Room (Shore)

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I don't like the sound of this.

And perhaps the person who was in the recording session, something about LSO players saying they have had some of the most fun Star Wars action music. They could easily be refering to the arena battle.

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Just to clarify, I am on board with the theory that the final battle was left unscored because of the TPM hack job. Lucas couldn't guarantee that it wouldn't happen again, so Williams refused to do any music for it.

Maybe that LSO guy was referring to Jango's Escape/Asteroid Field/Coruscant Chase when he was talking about the best action music, they were definatley kick @$$ cues.

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Pretty sure he said the end battle though, so I think that refers to The Arena.

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I definitely think there had to have been music for the Arena. It's not a problem to score stuff that could later one be edited. If Lucas said, oh I will be editing more, Williams can score something that CAN be changed later on with his approval. I'm sure there is music.

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There is, it's even on the soundtrack cd, most of it was cut from the film though.

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I saw the film today and noticed much more, thanks to John Takis' awesome breakdown. I think some of the music from the Conveyor Belt scene was possibly meant for the final battle, hence why the intended cue for the scene was chopped up.

Still -- there isn't an explanation for "Yoda's Theme" at all.......except maybe the fact that the horns were incredible.

Dan - who thinks it could've been an allusion to Yoda's connection to "young Skywalker" during those trying times....

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Just to clarify, I am on board with the theory that the final battle was left unscored because of the TPM hack job. Lucas couldn't guarantee that it wouldn't happen again, so Williams refused to do any music for it.

Maybe that LSO guy was referring to Jango's Escape/Asteroid Field/Coruscant Chase when he was talking about the best action music, they were definatley kick @$$ cues.

True that they are good, but they certainly aren't the best action cues from the saga.

~Harry

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Weeeelll...

Judging from my research of AOTC from the substandard bootleg I have for research purposes...(Don't worry LucasFilm, I saw it 3x opening weekend)

The arena was probably had original music, but was changed so drastically, like the conveyor belt scene, that the music didn't fit well at all after the edits. If this was the case, it would make sense to use tracked cues. I don't like how Lucas edits a film til the last minute, but alas, thats how he is.

He should make sure he has enough time to produce the movie before setting a release date.

-St. Yodes, who watched his Transformers Complete Season DVD in all its 8 hours of glory plus the bonus disc....mmmmm....

Lets Roll Out!

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Please!!!!!!! Give me a break, he has three years. That's no excuse. There's a little thing out there called megalomania. Lucas, do you hear me?

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The chances of Williams not scoring huge chunks of those huge battle scenes are slim to none.

Although I had already considered the slight possibility that Lucas told Williams that due to the CG editing, he couldn't promise to use the music (and hence Williams didn't compose a TON of it). But I find this hard to believe, mainly because the Conveyor Belt was obliterated, and The Arena was so hacked that to me it was virtually unoticeable.

I already figured that Williams used less motif/themes in the action sequences because Lucas hacks them. Not a bad thing because I haven't heard a Williams action cue that I didn't like, although I know that many here disagree and want the leitmotif laced action music.

BTW, Who says that the action music is sub-par in this one? I just spent the last 2 days at work listening to all 5 scores so far (although AOTC is incomplete), and I love them all equally. AOTC is the freshest to me, so for now at least... I like it even more.

-Chris

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Perhaps, because I don't really mentally isolate individual elements of film while viewing it, I don't seem to have the problems that most do with the score edits. If I do concentrate on one element more than other, it would be pacing of the story, most of which is controlled by the editing. Also, as a writer, I find that the story should take precedence over the score. That may sound like blasphemy on this board, but that is my opinion. Even though I can understand others' frustrations, I don't find the AOTC edits anywhere near as bothersome as the edits in TPM. Lucas dropped the ball on all counts when editing TPM, pacing and music. I may enjoy the film, but I'd be lying to myself if I didn't admit that. The edits in that film were not made to benefit the story, but rather they were due to Lucas second-guessing himself and having too many new technological toys with which to play.

Now, before I get so totally off-topic that I forget why I'm writing this, I believe most of these score edits could be avoided if Lucas and Williams were not using the LSO to record these scores. While it may now be tradition, it isn't exactly necessary; in fact, it may be detrimental. When hiring the LSO, the director and composer are forced to work on the orchestra's schedule, not vice versa. This, in turn, leads to the film being scored perhaps before it should be, as was the case with both TPM and AOTC. If Lucas and Williams had used session players and recorded in California, the scores could have been scored at a much later date, making drastic editing to various cues unnecessary. The main reason for hiring the LSO for Star Wars, some 25 years ago, came down to blind luck in the first place. Then it became the tradition with TESB and ROTJ, but at that time it was still feasible. Technology didn't allow Lucas such editorial control to revise those films until the very last minute as it does today, so such drastic score edits weren't a concern.

As for whether or not Williams composed music for the end battle in AOTC, it is possible he did not, yet I find that to be improbable. Though if he did, after his unhappiness with TPM, I'd hope it was understood that editing might have made its use in the film unlikely.

Ok I've had my say in the music editing in AOTC. You guys can go on debating it until the cows come home, but I'm finished. :baaa:

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maybe it's just me, and perhaps i'm biased because i'm english, but the LSO recordings always seem to sound far superior to those recorded with other orchestras.

also, given that all the hacking-up of JW's scores are almost entirely down to late editorial decisions (not a dislike of the music by lucas), and that JW has talked about re-scoring parts of the classic trilogy - will JW and lucas return to the scores of the prequel trilogy after the whole saga is complete and lucas has his perfect version, allowing JW to restore his scores as much as possible?

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oops. that's me above. spot the newbie! sorry!

btw, great boards. been enjoying reading your various discussions for the last few hours and thought i'd join in.

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will JW and lucas return to the scores of the prequel trilogy after the whole saga is complete and lucas has his perfect version, allowing JW to restore his scores as much as possible?

I hope that when they get together to do Ep. III JW will rescore the big battle in AOTC, I think he almost has to. Hopefully he will also score the scenes that have tracked TPM music that are before the battle, he probably never wrote anything for them.

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Welcome, Mr. Martin. A very patriotic name, indeed. :)

Director - looking forward to great things from the distinguished gentleman from Birmingham

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