What is this instrument?

[Sixers 0]

In the Battle of Hoth from 8:15 - 8:25 (2004 Sony Release) there is a loud instrument, which sounds like the banging of a metal pipe. I'm not sure what it is though. Does anybody know?

[UK_Tubist 6]

It's an anvil, isn't it?

[Red 75]

Hasn't this question already been asked and answered?

[Sixers 0]

It doesn't hurt to ask it again.

It's an anvil, isn't it?

Thank you, that what I thought it was at first, but I wasn't sure...

[King Mark 3,975]

It;'s an anvil.

K.M.Who seem to have answered the same exact thread last week

[Sixers 0]

It;'s an anvil.

K.M.Who seem to have answered the same exact thread last week

*sighs* :roll:

That was a question concerning Return of the Jedi, I happened to read it......I just wasn't sure if they were the same instrument.

*goes back to sibelius*

[Damo 0]

What's an anvil and what does it look like?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,383]

[artyjeffrey 20]

Well, there you have it.

[Damo 0]

Are you actually right about this that John Williams actually use an anvil considering it isn't an instrument?

Isn't there a percussion instrument shape in metal pipes in vertical upright position?

[ChrisAfonso 237]

That's tubular bells, but they sound different. An anvil is just a metal "clang", a tubular bell has a sound similar to a real church bell.

And I wouldn't say an anvil "isn't an instrument", it has been used as such since the days of Wagner, who wrote a passage for 18 anvils of different sizes in "Rheingold".

[Damo 0]

Thanks for the evidence that it is a musical percussion instrument.

[King Mark 3,975]

But I doubt orchestral anvils actually look like that

K.M.

[hornist 1,261]

What I've seen it's a thick iron plate hanging in a stand with iron wire.

And the were different size of plates.

[Damo 0]

Like a Gong but its instead its an Anvil...right?

[hornist 1,261]

Gong is thinner and when you hit it (stick is soft), the sound remains quite a time .

That "Anvil" is usually hit by a hammer , the sound is short.(and very noisy,I had once

plenty of them just behind me in "Rheingold")

[Damo 0]

I know but trying to picture of orchestral anvil in your mind that you haven't seen and as you mention before hanging in a stand with iron wire, a Gong hangs on a stand with something that hold it which i dunno what it is that hold the gong but yeah close enough.

If someone managed to get a picture of an orchestral anvil that would be really good.

[King Mark 3,975]

no luck in google

K.M.

[Goldsmithfan 6]

Difference in size. Would that justify the enormous difference between the sound of the Williams style anvil versus the Goldenthal style anvil? The Williams anvil sounds like a metal clang, but the Goldenthal style anvil sounds like a metal clang with absolute impending death. Or something like that.

[King Mark 3,975]

That might depend on how far the microphones are or the mix in the music...

[Damo 0]

That might depend on how far the microphones are or the mix in the music...

True. Probably referring to the recording technology at that time of year compare to today's digital recording ???

[hornist 1,261]

If someone managed to get a picture of an orchestral anvil that would be really good

I'm trying once more(my english sucks)

Orchester anvil is just a piece of cast-iron , whatever shape.

Different mass = different "sound"

And it's easier to move around plate shape than "real" anvil.

[Beowulf 4]

Don't forget about Verdi's "Anvil Chorus" from Il Trovatore.

I'd say they're pretty crucial to that piece of music.

[Goldsmithfan 6]

That might depend on how far the microphones are or the mix in the music...

True. Probably referring to the recording technology at that time of year compare to today's digital recording ???

This isn't a question of analog vs. digital (analog wins anyway), this is just two very different sounds. The anvil in The Battle of Hoth vs. Manifest Fire from Sphere for example. HUGELY different sounds.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,383]

How did Don Davis make that anvil sound the way it did in Neodammerung?

[Marian Schedenig 11,694]

Thanks for the evidence that it is a musical percussion instrument.

Not necessarily. Apparently, from what has been posted above, there really are "orchestral anvils", but I suppose that's just for convenience (or in some cases to get the right pitch). I assume the original anvils in music were just anvils. And don't forget that composers frequently use non-instruments in their works. Goldsmith used kitchen bowls in POTA, and Ades' Asyla has a range of old paint cans.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,383]

They probably started out with real anvils and it evolved into an easier to handle version.

It's useless for horse shoes though.

[Damo 0]

Careful what you say here because it can be a bit confusing....

And I wouldn't say an anvil "isn't an instrument", it has been used as such since the days of Wagner, who wrote a passage for 18 anvils of different sizes in "Rheingold".

According to ChrisAfonso it's an Instrument.

Thanks for the evidence that it is a musical percussion instrument.

Not necessarily. Apparently, from what has been posted above, there really are "orchestral anvils", but I suppose that's just for convenience (or in some cases to get the right pitch). I assume the original anvils in music were just anvils. And don't forget that composers frequently use non-instruments in their works. Goldsmith used kitchen bowls in POTA, and Ades' Asyla has a range of old paint cans.

According to Marian Schedenig it's not an Instrument.

Okay no matter if it's a musical instrument or not...composers do sometime use others things that aren't are really music instrument in their music. But the question is about anvil.. Is anvil an instrument? Some people say it's an instrument just because some music composers use it in their music...but some people say it not an instrument...

[King Mark 3,975]

man are we running out of topics...

K.M.

[Marian Schedenig 11,694]

According to Marian Schedenig it's not an Instrument.

Or rather, it wasn't an instrument when someone first wrote music for it, but these days, there are "instrumental versions" for easier handling. As opposed to other instances were works are written for devices which really aren't available in music stores.

[Damo 0]

I see.

[Jacck 23]

How can you define what is and isn't an instrument? In my opinion, any object that creates a sound that is remotely interesting is a musical instrument.

When Liszt used the triangle in his Piano Concerto No. 1 (being the first piece to use the triangle prominently), it caused somewhat of an uproar amongst the more controversial isteners. Today, triangle is considered a perfectly normal musical instrument. My point is that we shouldn't let history define what a musical instrument is. If the object sounds usable - it is a musical instrument.

[Damo 0]

How can you define what is and isn't an instrument? In my opinion, any object that creates a sound that is remotely interesting is a musical instrument.

When Liszt used the triangle in his Piano Concerto No. 1 (being the first piece to use the triangle prominently), it caused somewhat of an uproar amongst the more controversial isteners. Today, triangle is considered a perfectly normal musical instrument. My point is that we shouldn't let history define what a musical instrument is. If the object sounds usable - it is a musical instrument.

Well said.

EDIT: By the way is this the only scene where John Williams use an Anvil or has he use in other films as well?

[AI 0]

Ok let's clear this up;

From The Study of Orchestration by Samuel Adler

ANVIL (ANV.)

This instrument simulates the sound of a blacksmith's anvil. It was used quite a bit in the late nineteenth century, especially by Wagner in Das Rheingold and also by numerous twentieth-century composers like Varese, Bloch and Foss. It is a large steel block struck by a metal hammer. Any like object, such as a small section of rail-road track can be substituted for it if an orchestra does not provide the manufactured anvil.

[hornist 1,261]

Thanks AI , that's what I tried to say.

I forget that piece of rail-road track , seen it also in use.

[UK_Tubist 6]

EDIT: By the way is this the only scene where John Williams use an Anvil or has he use in other films as well?

He uses one in Battle of the Heroes as well (marked "muffled" in the score). I'm sure there are other places, but I can't think of any at the moment.

[Damo 0]

Can you be more specific about the Battle of the Heroes? I mean is it in the concert version or the actual score? And if it not in the concert version but it in the film score is it on the OST or it on one the unreleased cues?

Oh and umm....about the anvil being muffled in the score as you mentioned are we able to hear it?

[Indiana_Fett 0]

Are you actually right about this that John Williams actually use an anvil considering it isn't an instrument?

I'm trying to remember which composer used a piece of Airplane metal for percussion to score an airplane scene. Either way, objects can make sounds in scores and not even be considered instruments.

[Mr. Breathmask 624]

Are you actually right about this that John Williams actually use an anvil considering it isn't an instrument?

I'm trying to remember which composer used a piece of Airplane metal for percussion to score an airplane scene. Either way, objects can make sounds in scores and not even be considered instruments.

That would be Michael Giacchino using wreckage from the fuselage set for Lost.

[Goldsmithfan 6]

Thanks for the evidence that it is a musical percussion instrument.

Not necessarily. Apparently, from what has been posted above, there really are "orchestral anvils", but I suppose that's just for convenience (or in some cases to get the right pitch). I assume the original anvils in music were just anvils. And don't forget that composers frequently use non-instruments in their works. Goldsmith used kitchen bowls in POTA, and Ades' Asyla has a range of old paint cans.

Don't forget Goldenthal's use of scissors in Alien 3.

[Indiana_Fett 0]

Are you actually right about this that John Williams actually use an anvil considering it isn't an instrument?

I'm trying to remember which composer used a piece of Airplane metal for percussion to score an airplane scene. Either way, objects can make sounds in scores and not even be considered instruments.

That would be Michael Giacchino using wreckage from the fuselage set for Lost.

Thanks.

[Jim Ware 638]

How did Don Davis make that anvil sound the way it did in Neodammerung?

Synthesizers and samples. He referred to it as 'the piledriver' in interviews.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,383]

It sounds fantastic!

But it should not have been synth. This was a big budget film they could easily have had a real piledriver in the recording stage.

[UK_Tubist 6]

Can you be more specific about the Battle of the Heroes? I mean is it in the concert version or the actual score? And if it not in the concert version but it in the film score is it on the OST or it on one the unreleased cues?  

Oh and umm....about the anvil being muffled in the score as you mentioned are we able to hear it?

It's in the concert version (the section from 01:42-01:47) but as I say it's marked 'muffled' so I assume that means the percussionist puts a cloth on top of the metal that he's striking to dull the sound a tad. It's not meant to be too distinct on this occasion as there's also the marking "colour woodwinds". It's doubled by xylophone, piano and woodwind.

It can also be heard much more clearly in the cue "Boys continue" (in the Obi-Wan/Anakin duel scene between Yoda falling and his climbing along the tunnel).

[Omen II 1,300]

By the way is this the only scene where John Williams use an Anvil or has he use in other films as well?

Check out Fifty Miles of Desert from The Eiger Sanction CD, Damo. If you don't notice the anvil there, you'll need your ears syringed! I haven't checked yet, but doesn't Williams also use an anvil in one or two cues from Jaws, his other 1975 opus? I think I'll go listen.

I believe Sir Arthur Bliss also used an anvil in his score for Things To Come.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,383]

An Anvil can very clearly be used in the Chrissie's Death track on the original Jaws score.

[Ollie 1,375]

I believe Dracula, The Fury and Witches Of Eatwick contain the anvil.

[Omen II 1,300]

An Anvil can very clearly be used in the Chrissie's Death track on the original Jaws score.

Thanks Stefan, that's the one! Williams must have got an anvil for Christmas '74 - probably a present from, I dunno, John Cacavas or someone.

[UK_Tubist 6]

An Anvil can very clearly be used in the Chrissie's Death track on the original Jaws score.

Are you sure about this? I must admit I don't hear it. I think I know the bit you mean, but to my ear that's just a xylophone. Much of a hollow, wooden thwack than a metallic clang.

[Ollie 1,375]

Not the film version but the recording for the LP near the end of the cue as she's pulled under.

That's one powerful xylophone if that's what it is.