What does Jerry Goldsmith's music have what John Williams's music doesn't?

[mahler3 548]

If you ask me (and you haven't), Goldsmith and Williams are two sides of the same coin, or, perhaps, two sides of the same brain. While Williams caters more for the heart, however, Goldsmith's music is definitely more for the head.

The differences in sound (and here I mean how the scores are recorded) is apparent. All you have to do is to put "ST:TMP" side-by-side with "1941" (scores which were recorded within weeks of each other) to hear that Goldsmith likes to capture a "harder", more "gutsy" sound, with lots of upper mid-range while Williams likes things to sound altogether more "smooth". I believe that this is not the result of different studios, or even different engineers (John Neal Vs Bruce Botnik), or even the fact that "ST:TMP" was a digital recording (probably a first for a soundtrack), but probably reflects each other's personalities.

The use of synthesisers in Goldsmith's music, is something that I wholeheartedly endorse, and welcome, and I regret that Williams has never composed an all-synthesied score, which makes the appearence of electronics in cues such as "Everybody Runs" such a delight.

Both composers were/are at the top of their game, and both composers have made music that has become part of the world musical landscape. What does Goldsmith, that Williams doesn't? Anyone's guess. I do maintain that it IS easy to imagine "Superman" written by Goldsmith, or "The Omen" written by Williams (those who can't/won't do not have much of an imagination), but, the question is: "would these scores be as effective as what is already written?" Answer: probably not.

I hope to continue to listen the superb music of both Goldsmith, and Williams until the day I die, and, although Williams will ALWAYS be my no.1 musical hero (making, quite simply, the most exciting music I have ever heard), the music of the late, very, very much missed Mr. Jerry Goldsmith will always ocupy the no.2 slot, and that's not bad by any standard!

Well said, my sentiments exactly! :-o)

[Josh500 1,620]

I can imagine JW doing a much better job on Poltergeist and Star Trek and Rambo etc. than JG did, but I can't imagine JG doing a better job than JW did on E.T. or Star Wars or A.I.. That is, of course, I am talking of most movies, not all movies. Basic Instinct, for one, was the perfect JG score. Even JW couldn't have topped it, I am certain.

So what's wrong with POLTERGEIST, STAR TREK and RAMBO exactly?

Except for Sly's thick accent in Rambo, you mean?

Stallone is a god. Fear him.

But my post came from your phrase "much better", as if to say those three scores aren't really all that. Which is of course total lunacy.

I've reread what I wrote, and yes, you're right. "Much better" is an exaggeration. I didn't mean to imply that these scores are anything but top-notch. However, I can't help but feel that JW would have done a slightly better job, nonetheless.

Incidentally, these JG scores are some of my favorites!

[Docteur Qui 1,581]

I can imagine JW doing a much better job on Poltergeist and Star Trek and Rambo etc. than JG did, but I can't imagine JG doing a better job than JW did on E.T. or Star Wars or A.I..

Beg yours?

Seconded.

[Andy 7,730]

I hope to continue to listen the superb music of both Goldsmith, and Williams until the day I die, and, although Williams will ALWAYS be my no.1 musical hero (making, quite simply, the most exciting music I have ever heard), the music of the late, very, very much missed Mr. Jerry Goldsmith will always ocupy the no.2 slot, and that's not bad by any standard!

Same here. I've been listening to both for over three decades now, and still I feel very much a student with a lot to learn about both composers, thanks to their vast discographies.

[publicist 4,650]

However, I can't help but feel that JW would have done a slightly better job, nonetheless.

And that's the only reason you started a thread titled "What does Jerry Goldsmith's music have what John Williams's music doesn't?", isn't it?

That FINALLY after a long sigh true words of wisdom could be spoken: my favourite composer can do better. Penis Size® all the way!

PS: and no, Williams couldn't write a good RAMBO score to save his ass...

[Josh500 1,620]

However, I can't help but feel that JW would have done a slightly better job, nonetheless.

And that's the only reason you started a thread titled "What does Jerry Goldsmith's music have what John Williams's music doesn't?", isn't it?

That FINALLY after a long sigh true words of wisdom could be spoken: my favourite composer can do better. Penis Size® all the way!

PS: and no, Williams couldn't write a good RAMBO score to save his ass...

Man, you sound like you really have a penis issue.

This thread is simply about what it says: "What does Jerry Goldsmith's music have what John Williams's music doesn't?"

I hope to continue to listen the superb music of both Goldsmith, and Williams until the day I die, and, although Williams will ALWAYS be my no.1 musical hero (making, quite simply, the most exciting music I have ever heard), the music of the late, very, very much missed Mr. Jerry Goldsmith will always ocupy the no.2 slot, and that's not bad by any standard!

Same here. I've been listening to both for over three decades now, and still I feel very much a student with a lot to learn about both composers, thanks to their vast discographies.

Exactly!

[publicist 4,650]

This thread is simply about what it says: "What does Jerry Goldsmith's music have what John Williams's music doesn't?"

OF COURSE!

You know what happens to little bugggers like you? Insane Jerry-fanboys will come down your home and piss the track listing from NOT WITHOUT MY DAUGHTER all over your Williams CD rack!

[Josh500 1,620]

Whatever.

Anyway, you got anything interesting to add to this discussion, except for your trademarked Penis Size®?

[crocodile 9,724]

If there is one thing that Goldsmth does better than Williams is that his music feels more... coherent and fluent. Especially apart from the film, his music is better suited for listening. Not that Williams' music isn't. It's just Goldsmith's scores better translate to listening expierence on album. For some reason. And no, it's not really about his technical abilities (which are great btw).

Karol

[Luke Skywalker 2,383]

I was going to post that yesterday. However I would have said that both had cajones, but Goldsmith's may have had more hair on them.

Ugh, i didnt need to picture that

Just for the record...

This piece of furniture has five cajones.

[John Crichton 4]

That's a lot of drawers.

[Ollie 1,375]

Cojones.

Happy now?

[Koray Savas 2,260]

You have balls. I like balls.

[Wojo 2,458]

He's got big balls, she's got big balls, but we've got the biggest balls of them all.

[Luke Skywalker 2,383]

Cojones.

Happy now?

[lostinspace 8]

Yeah I agree with the above..... more holistic and organic.

JG music is similar in structure and concept to Bernard Herrmann (not in sound or style).

I used to be a real fan of JW work but at times his technical brilliance (complex orchestration, big themes) can overdo, or perhaps, underline what is happening too much. When face with the same scene to score I think Goldsmith would use the minimum and simplest instrumentation and include themes only where required; kinda a minimalist stratified approach. To me, this has a direct link to Herrmann in that he was very specific on where music should go.

Though JG music seems at times constructive e.g. repetitive time signature changes. It always seems to be a bit deeper (more psychological) than Williams's music. Ironically producing deeper meaning psychological film music is innovative though not as commercially sucessfull, I guess, because it's not as tuneful.

John Williams success lies mainly in part due to his abilities with melody, harmony, technical orchestration etc. But, even having those skills it is not enough to emotionally connect with the listener. That is why people like Goldsmiths music. It may not have heaps of fast woodwind runs and interesting brass passages, but that doesn't matter. The music is a slave to the movie, the music is there to enhance.

[Datameister 2,586]

Well, that's one of the music's roles. It's certainly the purpose it's written for, but I'd wager that for most serious film score fans, that's only a part of the equation - and it doesn't factor in at all for some folks.

I do agree that ultimately, music's technical merits are meaningless unless they produce emotions you want to experience again and again. But for me, that doesn't really play much of a role in this discussion because BOTH men's scores are technically excellent, through and through. In some ways, I suppose I'd have to give Williams a slight edge in that arena, but Goldsmith was no idiot. He understood the orchestra. It just so happens that on the whole, I get more out of Williams' music on an emotional level.

That being said, I really need to get to know more Goldsmith scores. My collection is woefully small, and the set of Goldsmith scores I'm familiar with isn't much bigger.

[lostinspace 8]

"So if Goldsmith became less complex than Williams in his later years, don't forget that he started out in the 60s at a level of complexity Williams reached only 20 to 30 years later. Which of course doesn't have to mean either composer was superior or inferior in their respective eras. Also, The Mummy, one of the last highlights of Goldsmith's final era, is still awesomely sophisticated."

Yeah I agree! Also, Hollow Man,though a sub-par movie has a complex score. Also the rejected score Timeline is a good listen. When I first heard it, the music seemed pretty repetitive, non thematic and a little boring. But, one thing I’ve noticed is that his music grows on you after a few listens, it complements the film really well. Goldsmith's music in general seems to be emotionally intense (Stravinsky strings with electronics, xylophone doubling, playing motives), or simple (like horns blasting out a theme or quiet strings). I read in an interview with Goldsmith’s orchestrator once and it said his music is very stratified, for example, JG is more likely to have all the trombones blasting out a theme, or all the horns. This keeps the orchestration clear.

I can’t think of an example where JG wrote in a kind of mickey mouse style, but Air Force One is the only OTT JG score I can think of. All the same it still works really well, particularly the Hijack scene. I cannot imagine JW writing music that intense!

[publicist 4,650]

Yeah I agree with the above..... more holistic and organic.

JG music is similar in structure and concept to Bernard Herrmann (not in sound or style).

I used to be a real fan of JW work but at times his technical brilliance (complex orchestration, big themes) can overdo, or perhaps, underline what is happening too much. When face with the same scene to score I think Goldsmith would use the minimum and simplest instrumentation and include themes only where required; kinda a minimalist stratified approach. To me, this has a direct link to Herrmann in that he was very specific on where music should go.

Though JG music seems at times constructive e.g. repetitive time signature changes. It always seems to be a bit deeper (more psychological) than Williams's music. Ironically producing deeper meaning psychological film music is innovative though not as commercially sucessfull, I guess, because it's not as tuneful.

John Williams success lies mainly in part due to his abilities with melody, harmony, technical orchestration etc. But, even having those skills it is not enough to emotionally connect with the listener. That is why people like Goldsmiths music. It may not have heaps of fast woodwind runs and interesting brass passages, but that doesn't matter. The music is a slave to the movie, the music is there to enhance.

Williams, especially in his most commercial phase in the 80s, had no problems connecting emotionally to the listener...as seen by a nauseating number of threads here, praising E. T., ESB and so on. As i see it, Goldsmith was a very rhythmic and adaptive composer with a clear goal and of course very dedicated to the movie at hand...and never really choosy about the projects he worked on (blue collar composer, as Lukas Kendall once said).

Williams is a gourmet chief, only working on selected projects, often looking for opportunities to make the music shine, either in context or as big concert suite.

The problem with the thesis that Williams is much more accomplished with his orchestrations is that it usually is thrown at Goldsmith 90's style. When you listen even to long-forgotten scores like BREAKOUT (1975) or HIGH VELOCITY (1974), they are a technical marvel, the action cues anyway. So it rather goes like a timeline: with Williams' growing complexity, Goldsmith stripped his down. Then came THE MUMMY and THE PHANTOM MENACE (even on the same day) and you could study how their styles had evolved. And of course, while people loved TPM, THE MUMMY seems much more rooted in 90's sensibilities in it's more bare style, while the Williams somehow sounds like it came from another decade.

[Datameister 2,586]

I think Williams' music is more "stratified" than we tend to realize, too, even if not to the extent that Goldsmith's was. Perhaps there are more individual strata at times, but I've been studying a LOT of Williams conductor's scores lately, and he uses some of the same techniques.

Williams, especially in his most commercial phase in the 80s, had no problems connecting emotionally to the listener...as seen by a nauseating number of threads here, praising E. T., ESB and so on.

It's nauseating that some people on a John Williams fan site love scores like E.T. and ESB? Perish the thought!

By the way, some of you may be pleased to know that nearly every time I try to type "Jerry Goldsmith", it starts to come out as "Jerry God-". Don't know if my subconscious is trying to tell me something.

[Josh500 1,620]

Like I said many times here and elsewhere, I am a big fan of both composers, but I honestly think John Williams tops Jerry Goldsmith in all areas. And before people start complaing, let me emphasize: this is just my own opinion. And I don't think so because I am a bigger JW fan, but rather I am a bigger JW fan because I think so. I am not talking about individual scores here, but their whole body of output (i.e. generally). Still, Jerry Goldsmith will always remain a close second. Both are massively talented, and deserve all the respect and attention they get.

Technical mastery: JW >> JG

Ability to create memorable melodies: JW > JG

Emotional impact: JW > JG

Ability to create an overall satisfying score (generally): JW > JG

Ability to get hired to score for good (highly rated) movies: JW >> JG

>> (is much better than)

> (is better than)

= (is as good as)

< (is worse than)

<< (is much worse than)

The problem with the thesis that Williams is much more accomplished with his orchestrations is that it usually is thrown at Goldsmith 90's style. When you listen even to long-forgotten scores like BREAKOUT (1975) or HIGH VELOCITY (1974), they are a technical marvel, the action cues anyway. So it rather goes like a timeline: with Williams' growing complexity, Goldsmith stripped his down. Then came THE MUMMY and THE PHANTOM MENACE (even on the same day) and you could study how their styles had evolved. And of course, while people loved TPM, THE MUMMY seems much more rooted in 90's sensibilities in it's more bare style, while the Williams somehow sounds like it came from another decade.

I see what you are saying and I agree up to a point, but even if you compare the Goldsmith scores of the 70s to the Williams scores of the 90s, Williams would be considered more accomplished (though perhaps not much more accomplished).

[lostinspace 8]

I think Williams' music is more "stratified" than we tend to realize, too, even if not to the extent that Goldsmith's was. Perhaps there are more individual strata at times, but I've been studying a LOT of Williams conductor's scores lately, and he uses some of the same techniques.

It is relatively clear but Williams doubles instruments a lot to make a big sound like horns + wind, harp+tbns . Goldsmith didn't really do tutti woodwind runs. I still think that Goldsmith still had the "less is more" mentality. His dynamic range is also better than Williams (soft, loud), I'm talking about Williams pre 2004 stuff here. It's a shame Goldsmith didn't score any really good films in the 90's as I'm sure he could have added so much too them. Hans Zimmer seems to have been highly influenced by the Goldsmith strident brass melodys and power e.g. Gladiator, so I guess it's obvious his influence is still present.

[Datameister 2,586]

I definitely disagree about the dynamic range issue - Williams has written very loud and very quiet material, even within single scores or single cues.

[publicist 4,650]

Williams, especially in his most commercial phase in the 80s, had no problems connecting emotionally to the listener...as seen by a nauseating number of threads here, praising E. T., ESB and so on.

It's nauseating that some people on a John Williams fan site love scores like E.T. and ESB? Perish the thought!

The problem starts not with loving them, but dragging them in every second thread, you know?

[Datameister 2,586]

Still something that I would always assume comes with the territory. I'm a moderator on a major Disney theme park forum, and I swear, the exact same conversations come up again and again, much more so than around here - but it's just the nature of the beast. Get a bunch of people with similar interests together for a while, and certain topics are just gonna do that.

[publicist 4,650]

Technical mastery: JW >> JG

Ability to create memorable melodies: JW > JG

Emotional impact: JW > JG

Ability to create an overall satisfying score (generally): JW > JG

Ability to get hired to score for good (highly rated) movies: JW >> JG

Some of that sounds more like an AMERICAN IDOL contest. "Ability to get hired to score for good movies"? WTF??? But we've gone through the penis issue before, so i will let it just go....

The problem with the thesis that Williams is much more accomplished with his orchestrations is that it usually is thrown at Goldsmith 90's style. When you listen even to long-forgotten scores like BREAKOUT (1975) or HIGH VELOCITY (1974), they are a technical marvel, the action cues anyway. So it rather goes like a timeline: with Williams' growing complexity, Goldsmith stripped his down. Then came THE MUMMY and THE PHANTOM MENACE (even on the same day) and you could study how their styles had evolved. And of course, while people loved TPM, THE MUMMY seems much more rooted in 90's sensibilities in it's more bare style, while the Williams somehow sounds like it came from another decade.

I see what you are saying and I agree up to a point, but even if you compare the Goldsmith scores of the 70s to the Williams scores of the 90s, Williams would be considered more accomplished (though perhaps not much more accomplished).

Williams would considered more accomplished by WHOM? By his usual batch of courtiers around here? Or by an unknown Supreme Being spending his sundays thrashing happily around knee-deep in his wonderfully complex HARRY POTTER cue sheets with a gleeful smile on his face?

[Josh500 1,620]

Some of that sounds more like an AMERICAN IDOL contest. "Ability to get hired to score for good movies"? WTF??? But we've gone through the penis issue before, so i will let it just go....

Don't embarrass yourself!

Williams would considered more accomplished by WHOM? By his usual batch of courtiers around here? Or by an unknown Supreme Being spending his sundays thrashing happily around knee-deep in his wonderfully complex HARRY POTTER cue sheets with a gleeful smile on his face?

Nope. By most (though not all) members of jwfan.com, or most fans of film scores in general, come to that.

[Datameister 2,586]

I'm definitely not following, publicist. That's okay...I think I'll go back to thrashing happily around knee-deep in my wonderfully complex Harry Potter cue sheets with a gleeful smile on my face.

And that wasn't sarcasm. Seriously, I'm just gonna go back to studying the score now.

[Josh500 1,620]

[publicist 4,650]

Williams would considered more accomplished by WHOM? By his usual batch of courtiers around here? Or by an unknown Supreme Being spending his sundays thrashing happily around knee-deep in his wonderfully complex HARRY POTTER cue sheets with a gleeful smile on his face?

Nope. By most (though not all) members of jwfan.com, or most fans of film scores in general, come to that.

Is that so? I heavily doubt it, since 90's Williams onwards hasn't that much of a fan base, as far as i'm concerned. He has written mightily good scores, but most film score fans in general are much more outspoken in praising the virtues of WIND AND THE LION, the OMENS or PAPILLON than they are in NIXON, MUNICH, 7YIT, ANGELA'S ASHES and what have you. Even the new STAR WARS'es got it hard on the nose by many (i refrain from dividing accomplished orchestrations from the score as a whole, since both go together, imho).

I'm definitely not following, publicist. That's okay...I think I'll go back to thrashing happily around knee-deep in my wonderfully complex Harry Potter cue sheets with a gleeful smile on my face.

So you're in fact the Supreme Being Josh loves to bring up whenever he wants to add vague empirical proof to his IMHO's?

[Josh500 1,620]

Is that so? I heavily doubt it, since 90's Williams onwards hasn't that much of a fan base, as far as i'm concerned.

Again, don't embarrass yourself. You are aware that we're on the MB of jwfan.net, right?

He has written mightily good scores, but most film score fans in general are much more outspoken in praising the virtues of WIND AND THE LION, the OMENS or PAPILLON than they are in NIXON, MUNICH, 7YIT, ANGELA'S ASHES and what have you. Even the new STAR WARS'es got it hard on the nose by many (i refrain from dividing accomplished orchestrations from the score as a whole, since both go together, imho).

Do I hear the Nazi theme from LC every time you talk?

Jurassic Park, Schindler's List, Far and Away, JFK, A.I., Harry Potter...

[Datameister 2,586]

So you're in fact the Supreme Being Josh loves to bring up whenever he wants to add vague empirical proof to his IMHO's?

Certainly not. I'm just some fan of Williams, God - gah, Goldsmith! - and numerous other film composers, and I happened to be studying the score when you made the comment. I thought it was funny.

[Brónach 1,330]

balls

I can't picture JW scoring The 13th Warrior the way Jerry did.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,386]

I'm sure he would not have!

Can you imagine Williams doing Rambo: First Blood part II?

[Esteban 1]

What does Jerry Goldsmith's music have what John Williams's music doesn't?

Rage, anger, a strong personal voice, orchestral imagination, and above all an incredible rythmic energy. Well, that's what I've always loved in Goldsmith' s music and don't find in Williams's.

All I can say is, JG's music often lacks the complex orchestration of JW's music...

Listen carefully to Antonio's death in PAPILLON or Klingon battle in Star Trek TMP. In fact, the difference is that here Goldsmith creates a new ochestral sound, while Williams is always derivating (brilliantly) his music, and more specifically his orchestrations, from other composers.

[Josh500 1,620]

Listen carefully to Antonio's death in PAPILLON or Klingon battle in Star Trek TMP. In fact, the difference is that here Goldsmith creates a new ochestral sound, while Williams is always derivating (brilliantly) his music, and more specifically his orchestrations, from other composers.

I admire both.

However, I prefer the way JW finds ways to create new sounds with the traditial orchestra (as opposed to being all-out experimental, with sounds and instruments).

[publicist 4,650]

Listen carefully to Antonio's death in PAPILLON or Klingon battle in Star Trek TMP. In fact, the difference is that here Goldsmith creates a new ochestral sound, while Williams is always derivating (brilliantly) his music, and more specifically his orchestrations, from other composers.

I admire both.

However, I prefer the way JW finds ways to create new sounds with the traditial orchestra (as opposed to being all-out experimental, with sounds and instruments).

The thread that wouldn't die....

[Melange 448]

What does Jerry Goldsmith's music have what John Williams's music doesn't?

Hair on the head?

[Ollie 1,375]

Well by god, that settles it. We have our answer.