Howard Shore's The Desolation Of Smaug (Hobbit Part 2)

[tannhauser 101]

I hope its just a case of workload. These films are exhausting projects for shore, and hes not as young as he was when he worked on Lotr. I thought he had visibly aged quite a bit after AUJ, probably not helped by the need for rewrites due to the changes in the film. The strange thing is that orchestration seems to be such an integral part of shores creative process, so im intrigued as to how this will play out.

[tannhauser 101]

I trust Adams ENTIRELY.

[Luke Skywalker 2,383]

Huh?

Conrad Pope is in talks to work on The Hobbit, probably as orchestrator, and suddenly there is the assumption he is a ghost writer because Shore has seen enough of the project? What the hell?

yeah i may have been a little carried away. Anyway as you said it is an assumption...not a fact

Regardless, the fact that he is in talk with orchestrators, it means something. So it is not a big deal to assume things after King Kong and how PJ treated AUJ's score.

Oh, and I hope we all agree that Pope's skill and experience can only help the resulting score, even more so if it gives Shore more time to focus on composing.

i agree with that

[Luke Skywalker 2,383]

Well I haven't listened much Hermann..but Psyco, regardless of how good it is, it a little Monothematic- slight variations of themes in that regard... so it fits my theory.

I always maintained that LOTR was not highly orchestrated. Many of the statements of the main themes sound alike without extreme noticeable changes. Though he started to change in ROTK and I like how he arranged the old themes in AUJ. Maybe he has seen that he can compose and arrange with more variety if he uses orchestrators, leaving him more time to focuse on composing music.

Manuel the reason why some themes receive very similar variations is purposeful (e.g. The History of the Ring) and saying that the themes do not vary in orchestration is a gross exaggeration. If anything Shore's themes for LotR are in constant flux, orchestrationally and melodically. Plus we know that the instrumental colours and choices are equally well thought out. He certainly has his own methods of orchestrating and aesthetic and because of that sounds to me refreshingly different from most of the Hollywood bunch but saying that LotR wasn't highly orchestrated is just silly.

Well i just prefer the 'reinvention' of themes like he did in ROTK and AUJ, (and what Williams and Giacchino (sometimes)) than the straightforward renditions

[Quintus 6,494]

It's a shame Alexander Courage can't orchestrate this.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,383]

I trust Adams ENTIRELY.

I havent trusted Adams since his bogus explanation of why Nature's Reclamations became the secondary Rohan Theme.

Deal with the facts Doug!

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,383]

At this point we have no way of knowing what Pop's involvement is right?

I mean does a JW score sound less like a JW score because Pope orchestrates?

[Marian Schedenig 11,694]

Well I haven't listened much Hermann..but Psyco, regardless of how good it is, it a little Monothematic- slight variations of themes in that regard... so it fits my theory.

Herrmann has always been a minimalist, and furthermore specifically chose his orchestration ruleset for each score. Psycho, with its string only orchestra, is monochromoatic more than monothematic. There's other scores where he left out the woods or the strings, or mostly focused on low brass, or used a whole array of harps.

Mostly monothematic scores have been written by all sorts of composers - for example Williams' Dracula. Davis' The Matrix is full of minimalistic devices, has hardly any themes at all (he claimed at the time it had none, but that's obviously not true) and yet was not orchestrated by him alone.

And while you may complain about LOTR's... unorthodox... orchestrations, you can't deny that it has more themes than nearly any other film score in history, and bends them in all kinds of ways as well.

[Luke Skywalker 2,383]

Thematically LOTR is great, unparalleled.

I just would have prefered more variations of them.

[Marian Schedenig 11,694]

now we have Shore considering not orchestrating it. This worries me only because Shore is well known for orchestrating all his work. And this change in the process has me thinking if Shore is re-evaluating his commitment to this project and if he might not go all out as he did with LOTR.

Assuming Shore's sketches are as detailed as Doug says, taking an orchestrator dosen't mean Shore isn't *orchestrating* the music. It just means he wants to skip the tedious part of writing out all the parts specifically, which takes a lot of time and doesn't contribute much that wasn't already in the sketches.

[Luke Skywalker 2,383]

some people say that williams style changed when pope started orchestrating for him.

So maybe DOS will sound like modern williams

[Marian Schedenig 11,694]

These films are exhausting projects for shore, and hes not as young as he was when he worked on Lotr. I thought he had visibly aged quite a bit after AUJ, probably not helped by the need for rewrites due to the changes in the film.

He already looked old in 2010.

He's still conducting it all though, so nothing will get through without his agreement (he's known for making changes during recording right?). I guess since he'll have composed most of the themes already it will still be Shores work, maybe the recent additions means he needs for time to compose new ideas.

He doesn't need to conduct either to make changes on the fly. In fact, having seen him conduct in concert, I'd venture Shore does nothing during conducting that he can't communicate verbally with a different conductor.

And don't forget that even composers like Williams (at least on Jurassic Park) and Goldsmith (on a whole bunch of his most prominent scores) didn't always conduct themselves either.

[Quintus 6,494]

It's a shame Wagner can't orchestrate this.

[Marian Schedenig 11,694]

He'd take 20 years and invent a couple of new instruments in the process.

[chuck 155]

It's a shame Gene Kelly can't choreographed this.

[Quintus 6,494]

It's a shame Walter Matthau and Jack Lemon aren't in this.

[Brónach 1,330]

It's a shame Stanley Kubrick didn't DP this.

[KK 3,313]

now we have Shore considering not orchestrating it. This worries me only because Shore is well known for orchestrating all his work. And this change in the process has me thinking if Shore is re-evaluating his commitment to this project and if he might not go all out as he did with LOTR.

Assuming Shore's sketches are as detailed as Doug says, taking an orchestrator dosen't mean Shore isn't *orchestrating* the music. It just means he wants to skip the tedious part of writing out all the parts specifically, which takes a lot of time and doesn't contribute much that wasn't already in the sketches.

That's a good point. I'm not following some people's logic here. This will clearly still be 100% Shore music (except for the Plan 9 stuff...). Orchestrators play a much smaller role for veterans like Shore and Williams.

It's just the change in Shores normal scoring process is a sign that worries me just bit.

[chuck 155]

It's just the change in Shores normal scoring process is a sign that worries me just bit.

In 4 years, Shore will be 70. i think it's high time he needs to lighten up.

[chuck 155]

It's a shame Busby Berkeley can't choreographed this.

[Quintus 6,494]

It's a shame Leslie Bricusse isn't writing some big show songs for this.

[chuck 155]

It's a shame Ralph Bakshi can't rotoscope this.

(Haha, damn way to derail a thread!!!)

[Brónach 1,330]

It's a shame chuckster312 didn't derail this.

Wait. Peter Jackson did!

[chuck 155]

Well, it's a shame George Lucas can't sell this to Disney.

[gkgyver 1,647]

It's a shame Angela Morley can't write this score.

[Ollie 1,375]

It's a shame Zack Snyder and Chris Nolan aren't directing and producing this.

[gkgyver 1,647]

At least that would mean no more crayon colours.

But considering the gloomy look of films these days, a splash of colour like the Hobbit is very welcome.

[chuck 155]

It's a shame Georgia O'Keeffe can't art direct this.

[hornist 1,261]

It's a shame I ran out of beer this night.

[Brónach 1,330]

It's a shame Sharlto Copley can't improvise this!

[Quintus 6,494]

It's a shame Robert Shaw can't play Gandalf in this.

[Jay 46,241]

It's a shame John Rawls can't play Azog in this.

[chuck 155]

It's a shame Will Smith can't have a leading role in this.

[Incanus 5,890]

It is a shame how this thread derailed so badly after the glorious beginning of mocking Hans Zimmer and fretting about the implications of hiring Conrad Pope.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,383]

Oh no!

[Incanus 5,890]

Finally some sensible commentary! Thank you Stefan!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,383]

Its clear that we have nothing sensible to say about this score at this point.

[chuck 155]

Damn shame.

[Incanus 5,890]

We could contact a medium to divine us a few cues from the ether or a spy to steal some sheet music. But yeah we don't have much to say yet when not a note has been heard or reported.

[BloodBoal 8,711]

[chuck 155]

Oh yeah... I think Shore is contacting the renowned and legendary singer-songwriter Justin Bieber to collaborate for the next original song that will surely make an Oscar nomination.

[Incanus 5,890]

I am hoping for a decent end credits song for DoS but it remains to be seen who will they hire and what route this artist will take.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,383]

Kraftwerk!

[Richard P 5,302]

*still can't work out why everyone hates Finn's song so much*

(come on..... ok, I could do without the chanting, but we've all heard worse. I also like the extended ending.)

Anyway...

I hope that PJ's more action/effects oriented approach will similarly inspire Shore. But he has the book open in every video we see of him, so maybe he'll just score that

I certainly don't entirely trust Doug's words on all subjects - quite clearly stuff happened on AUJ that wasn't planned, but I'm inclined to think that Shore just wants to work on the composing side more for this one, and remove the orchestration workload.

[Maurizio 6,913]

I think the news about orchestrators in almost a non-news. The only thing is that a top name like Conrad Pope is involved, so it seems to stir the pot much more than it could be.

Aside from the fact Shore has already used credited orchestrators in the past, this doesn't take anything out his writing process and method. Shore is an old-school guy, he still writes mostly with pencil and paper. He also mocks-up cues, but that's because he has to go through the approval process by the filmmakers (that's the way it works today).

Since I guess 1999 or 2000, Shore started to credit himself as orchestrator. However, his writing method is always the same. So, in the case of LOTR he orchestrated by himself as he always does. Given the huge amount of music he had to produce, it's likely he had an army of copyists and proof-readers that helped him survive throughout the process. I don't know the specifics of course, but I guess it probably happened that maybe on a few cases he had to pass a detailed 8-staves sketch to a trusted collaborator instead of the usual 12 or 14-staves.

I guess the involvement of a surely talented orchestrator like Conrad Pope on this case doesn't really take anything out Shore's full authorship on the score. My idea is that he probably wants trusted and really skillfull professionists around him, i.e. people able to guarantee the top-notch musicianship the score demands, especially when you have to face tight deadlines, post-production overhaul mayhem and so on, all situatuons where the pressure goes up.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,383]

In one of the ROTK docu's for the EE. A produder stated that at one point Shore was doing 18 to 19 minutes of music a day, which is totally impossible on his own.

Either the numbers over way off, or he had help.

[gkgyver 1,647]

It wasn't 18 Minutes, it was around 9-10.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,383]

Still too much

[KK 3,313]

It's what he had to deal with with Jackson's tight schedule. And those 10 minutes aren't neccessarily original material all the time, but could have consisted of rewrites and such.

Shore looked terribly exhausted in all the RotK production footage.