Star Trek Into Darkness (The Big Bad Star Trek (X)II Thread)

[JoeinAR 1,957]

wojo, you should come eat with me and Dave at Paula Deen's restaurant. it's awesome. You can have some deep fried sticks of butter. Deep fried Catfish, Deep Fried Oysters, BBq pork, beef brisket, sausage, cornbread dressing, corn pones, and we'll discuss the next Star Trek villain.

btw Khan as villain in the reboot make no more or no less sense. The time line is not the same as Star Trek. Orci and Kurtzman are free to write what they want unburdened by the original timeline.

[Wojo 2,458]

I'd eat everything on that list and still have room for dessert. I'm not on a diet. If I ever decide to take the time off to drive out to the left coast, I'd have to make that visit.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,385]

That's the only reason having Khan as the villain would bother you?

For me the fact that no one could ever hope to better Ricardo Montalban's brilliant performance in both Space Seed and TWOK.

There is no comparison!

[JoeinAR 1,957]

OMG, I didn't even think about the desserts, usually all I have room for is the strawberry and kiwi torts with cream.

I'd need McCoy to clean out my arteries after a visit there.

That's the only reason having Khan as the villain would bother you?

For me the fact that no one could ever hope to better Ricardo Montalban's brilliant performance in both Space Seed and TWOK.

There is no comparison!

Stefan that reminds me, one review I read of Wrath of Khan was some idiot saying Montalban was all wrong for the role.

[Jay 46,241]

Oh I'm sorry, perhaps you see Orci as a quality writer.

you guys thinking Orci and Kurtzman are quality writer is just as fking old.

Huh? What in the world are you talking about? Have I ever once said anywhere they were great writers? Or that the Star Trek reboot had a great script? I certainly have not. These are the guys who wrote Transformers, the worst movie I have seen in the theater in my entire life, the first movie that made me want to walk out of the theater in over a decade.

I am not disagreeing (or agreeing!) with you - I am simply pointing out that - to me- your CONSTANT bashing of them in EVERY chance you get is getting tiresome. The same lazy, tired comments every time. You are not even creative in your bashing, its just he same trite comments every time. You constantly say the reboot movie is full of plot holes, but I have never seen you once explain what you think they are, and talk about why the script didn't work for you.

I'm sorry but why don't you guys write my posts for me, tell me what my opinions should be, I mean you guys are always fking right, RIGHT.

Huh? When have I ever tried to do that? Give me a break. I would never try to tell anyone what their opinions should be. I just know you can be more creative in your expressions of your opinions, and you used to be.

Stefan, Jason has never liked me, never will, until he became admin here, he had me on ignore. It's not like anything has changed. Wojo, well he just has his own issues with me.

It's not that I don't like you, I have nothing against you. You just repeat yourself a lot, is all. I want to read different, creative, interesting things, not the same trite comments repeated ad naseum year after year.

I really just hope the villain isn't Khan. Wrath of Khan takes place 14 years-ish after the original 5 year mission. When the reboot movie ended, they weren't even caught up to when the original 5 year mission would have started yet, everyone is still so younger. It's too early for even space seed. Bah.

That's the only reason having Khan as the villain would bother you?

Oh god no, no not at all! I think there are a plethora of reasons why Khan should not be the villiain in this movie, or any of the sequels until they get maybe 5-6 films in.

[Wojo 2,458]

In this rebooted/alternate Star Trek timeline, the Botany Bay is still drifting through space with Khan and friends on ice, having departed the same twentieth century that existed in the original timeline regardless of actually not having come to pass in our own true timeline.

It's a small ship. The galaxy is a big place. To assume that the Enterprise will still find Khan and friends after all this time, as if it was the ship's unchangeable destiny to do, is a lazy selection of a plot device. Let the sleeper ship be found by a different race or different Starfleet vessel. You know, they do have more than just the Enterprise (though maybe not after Nero toasted the armada at Vulcan). Let it crash into a sun. Crash on a desolate planet or its ocean. Be destroyed by the Klingons. Or, better yet, just keep floating in space for all of time, with Chris Pine's Kirk never know about it.

The Khan show and movie were successful because of Montalban's charisma...not because the character was named Khan. That was lightning in a bottle and cannot be recaptured or condensed into a new two hour movie. Using a popular actor like Cumberbatch to attempt to recapture that is an insult to Cumberbatch and a bigger insult to Montalban's legacy.

[Jay 46,241]

Agree with everything you said!

[JoeinAR 1,957]

maybe the writers will take into account that we're in the 21st century and are a long ways from interstellar space exploration and that the Botany Bay never happened. Certainly not like it did in the Star Trek universe.

Using familiar characters cannot be any worse, than new original villain. Orci & Co., and also Logan created their original villains, but so did others. Orci and Co get a bit of a pass in that due to the writers strike and time constraints they didn't get tweek like they could/should. But Logan has no excuse for before, I mean B-4, Shinzon and his blatant rip off of Wrath of Khan. Meyer did the best with his Plummer/Klingon. but I do like Kruge too.

Star Trek the Motion Picture, no individual villain, just a confused computer trying to destroy humanity, not entirely successful.

ST2, great villain from original series, great submarine picture. very successful

ST3, okay original villain, but at it's heart is a tale of loyalty. successful.

ST4, no individual villain, just a probe punishing man himself for our ignorant destruction of nature, great fish out of water tale, very successful.

ST5, Spock brother is the villain, but not really, it's the non God thing instead, not successful

ST6, Original klingon villains, well told, very successful, how could it not be shakaspear and klingons.

ST7, Original villain, lame, very unsuccessful. Great opening.

ST8, Borg Queen, well played, most successful of the STTNG films,

ST9, Original villain, somewhat successful in a pedestrian film.

ST10, Original villain, completely unsuccessful, if you're going to have Picard against Picard why not do a mirror universe.

ST 11, Original villain, completely unsuccessful villain, the film is saved by wonderful casting and acting.

ST 12, ________ villain. to be determined.

My biggest hope is that this tale does not involve saving the universe from destruction. Keeping it in the family might be the right way to go. It's always okay for the Enterprise to face destruction.

[Wojo 2,458]

If we see Khan in this next movie, then -- I must assume -- it will mark the third consecutive time that a Star Trek film villain used the same basic plot structure for his motivation. Fourth overall if you include the original Khan template himself.

At least the vast majority of Trek villains had interesting premises.

TMP -- abandoned science project returns home to meet its master, or destroy it since nobody remembers how to communicate; a retread of an episodic plot but still vintage science fiction, Asimov would be proud

II -- Khan

III -- rogue Klingon wants to REALLY give Kirk a reason to hat Klingons, and capitalize on the weapon capabilities of Genesis, which is ultimately proven to be a failure anyways, except for resurrecting the galaxy's favorite Vulcan

IV -- environmentally aware take on the basic idea of TMP: an alien probe travels to Earth to fulfill a need to communicate

V -- rogue Vulcan wants to meet God, and rogue Klingon wants to kill God, er, William Shatner, er, Captain Kirk; ok, maybe this one is kinda like III

VI -- political thriller about the collapse of the Cold War (USA/USSR, Starfleet/Klingons, pick one) and the secret alliances that want to see the war continue

VII -- rogue El-Aurian blows up stars to reach nirvana/meet God/be God/whatever

VIII -- Borg, 'nuff said

IX -- Starfleet gets its hands caught in a messy alien civil war where the children return home to banish their parents and steal the farm, and villain is the chief alien

X -- Khan as a Romulan

XI -- Khan as a Romulan, take 2; Lore reject

XII -- Khan? Khan????

ST 11, Original villain, completely unsuccessful villain, the film is saved by wonderful casting and acting.

JASON! JASON! JASON! JASON! Look! Joey gave props to Star Trek 11!

Godablazes pinch me, I died back there.

[Jay 46,241]

I'd still like to know what the plot holes he's always talking about are.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,385]

Joe, the word is given....

Jason. How about Spock throwing Kirk of the ship instead of just putting him in the brig? How about Kirk being dumped on Delta Vega, and just happen to run into a cave that has old Spock in it?

[Wojo 2,458]

The biggest one is why, when Nero's ship ends up in the 22nd century and Thor sacrifices the USS Kelvin to save his newborn son:

1) No Starfleet ships ever come back to see what the hell happened. Superior odds and mysterious circumstances? No problem, this is Starfleet, the same organization that still would have sent Jonathan Archer's significantly more primitive ship through the Delphic Expanse less than 100 years prior to defeat the Xindi weapon...ALONE. Starfleet would not just abandon a mystery like that, unless they put a death penalty in place over the spot like they would have for Talos IV, had the timeline not been skewed, and even that ruling was stupid.

2) We are meant to wonder why Nero sat on his hands for 20 years or so waiting for Spock to arrive. They should have come out and said "we have waited 20 years in this spot without moving" to remove the question. Oh wait, they did move, because Nero got his ear munched by Evander "Klingon" Holyfield as he waited, and both the ear and scene were left cut.

[Jay 46,241]

How about Spock throwing Kirk of the ship instead of just putting him in the brig? How about Kirk being dumped on Delta Vega, and just happen to run into a cave that has old Spock in it?

That is bad writing, but not a plot hole

The biggest one is why, when Nero's ship ends up in the 22nd century and Thor sacrifices the USS Kelvin to save his newborn son:

Holy SHIT! I never realized that that was the actor who played Thor until just now! Wow!

1) No Starfleet ships ever come back to see what the hell happened. Superior odds and mysterious circumstances? No problem, this is Starfleet, the same organization that still would have sent Jonathan Archer's significantly more primitive ship through the Delphic Expanse less than 100 years prior to defeat the Xindi weapon...ALONE. Starfleet would not just abandon a mystery like that, unless they put a death penalty in place over the spot like they would have for Talos IV, had the timeline not been skewed, and even that ruling was stupid.

Who said no starships went back? All you have to assume is that after the destruction of the Kelvin, Nero and his ship flew away, so when Starfleet came back to investigate, there was nothing there.

2) We are meant to wonder why Nero sat on his hands for 20 years or so waiting for Spock to arrive. They should have come out and said "we have waited 20 years in this spot without moving" to remove the question. Oh wait, they did move, because Nero got his ear munched by Evander "Klingon" Holyfield as he waited, and both the ear and scene were left cut.

You answered your own question. Nero flew around the galaxy for a while doing different things for a while, including being captured by the Klingons for a large part of it.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,385]

The film never makes that clear Jason. And it's rather confusing

[Trent B 354]

There are deleted scenes from the Blu-Ray set that explains about Nero just "sitting on his hands" for 20 years. After the Narada was disabled by the Kelvin, there was a fleet of Klingon ships that crossed the border and captured the Narada. I'm assuming that the Klingons detected the weapon signatures from an unknown ship (Narada) and the Kelvin and decided to investigate. I also assume that the reason why the Klingons didn't initially cross the border was because that would mean war with the Federation. So they probably waited for all the shuttles to escape before crossing the border.

I have to agree with Jason that it's possible Starfleet did send a couple of ships back to investigate but found the Narada was gone. As I said Nero and his crew were captured by the Klingons and spent the next 20-25 years in the Klingon prison colony Rura Penthe. Nero spent that time calculating when Spock would emerge into that time frame from the black hole.

The other bad writing part from the deleted scene is why they waited so long to escape from Rura Penthe and why the Klingons never destroyed or took apart the Narada after capturing it.

[Jay 46,241]

The film never makes that clear Jason. And it's rather confusing

Oh I agree the final film doesn't tell you anything about what Nero did for 20 years, and you can assume he stayed in the same spot just as you can assume he was away for a while and then returned. But either way, that's not a plot hole

[Wojo 2,458]

How about Spock throwing Kirk of the ship instead of just putting him in the brig? How about Kirk being dumped on Delta Vega, and just happen to run into a cave that has old Spock in it?

That is bad writing, but not a plot hole

But the idea that Spock could "watch" the destruction of Vulcan from Delta Vega -- by the naked eye for cinematic effect, since we see him without telescope -- is weak.

The idea Kirk is marooned on the same planet with old Spock and Scotty is too convenient to be coincidence.

The biggest one is why, when Nero's ship ends up in the 22nd century and Thor sacrifices the USS Kelvin to save his newborn son:

Holy SHIT! I never realized that that was the actor who played Thor until just now! Wow!

And his brother is going to marry Miley Cyrus.

1) No Starfleet ships ever come back to see what the hell happened. Superior odds and mysterious circumstances? No problem, this is Starfleet, the same organization that still would have sent Jonathan Archer's significantly more primitive ship through the Delphic Expanse less than 100 years prior to defeat the Xindi weapon...ALONE. Starfleet would not just abandon a mystery like that, unless they put a death penalty in place over the spot like they would have for Talos IV, had the timeline not been skewed, and even that ruling was stupid.

Who said no starships went back? All you have to assume is that after the destruction of the Kelvin, Nero and his ship flew away, so when Starfleet came back to investigate, there was nothing there.

That's an awfully big assumption. It is supported by the idea that only Kirk realizes that the "lightning storm in space" is the same event that kills his father. This is weak because the entire Kelvin bridge crew saw Nero's officer appear on the viewscreen before their captain went over. All the survivors would have known there was a super-powerful starship at that location, not some storm, and you would hope they would have pressured Starfleet to make a full investigation into the matter instead of covering it up or dismissing it as unsolvable. That decision -- future interference, Section 31 cover-up, anyone? -- cost the lives of every single officer and crewman that beat the Enterprise to Vulcan.

2) We are meant to wonder why Nero sat on his hands for 20 years or so waiting for Spock to arrive. They should have come out and said "we have waited 20 years in this spot without moving" to remove the question. Oh wait, they did move, because Nero got his ear munched by Evander "Klingon" Holyfield as he waited, and both the ear and scene were left cut.

You answered your own question. Nero flew around the galaxy for a while doing different things for a while, including being captured by the Klingons for a large part of it.

I know I did, but I should not have to look to the cutting room floor for answers. Most deleted scenes don't have to be considered primary canon. He would not have flown around the "galaxy" because it's a REALLY big place, but he would not have strayed far out of sensor range, notwithstanding the removed Klingon scene.

[Jay 46,241]

How about Spock throwing Kirk of the ship instead of just putting him in the brig? How about Kirk being dumped on Delta Vega, and just happen to run into a cave that has old Spock in it?

That is bad writing, but not a plot hole

But the idea that Spock could "watch" the destruction of Vulcan from Delta Vega -- by the naked eye for cinematic effect, since we see him without telescope -- is weak.

The idea Kirk is marooned on the same planet with old Spock and Scotty is too convenient to be coincidence.

Oh, I'm agreeing that it's bad writing! It's just not a plot hole. You dig?

[JoeinAR 1,957]

plot hole, bad writing, semantics as far as I'm concerned.

Spock views the destruction of Vulcan from Delta Vega. Vulcan is larger in the sky than our own moon. Delta Vega is light years from Vulcan, so Spock being without communication equipment would have no way of knowing that Vulcan is destroyed. He would not know he's emotional compromised and therefore could not advise Kirk to use this to his advantage. (this isn't just bad writing, it's a plot hole). I suppose they could have used the telepathic link that was used in the Immunity Syndrome, but I choose not to give them help.

Nero going after Spock in the more recent time is pointless. He has no specific knowledge that he'll appear anywhere.

Once Nero does capture Spock he plans to destroy Vulcan, and then the Earth. But now he has the means in his hands to prevent the destruction of his world. He choose to follow his base need for revenge rather than to save his world.

Wojo, I've been very consistent in my praise for Star Trek 2009's casting, and acting, except for Simon Pegg who I think is all wrong.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,385]

I think Lee looks a bit like Simon Pegg. Judging from Ren's avatar at least.

[crocodile 9,724]

Well, the writers seem to see all of this in terms of fate. The timeline has been altered but those people are meant to meet each other so the cosmic forces (ouch!) pull all the elements together. Or something. That was their point.

And no, it doesn't really make it any better.

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,385]

It's the timeline trying to repair itself.....

[JoeinAR 1,957]

I wondered if the writers considered trying to repair the time line in this up coming tale.

[Wojo 2,458]

plot hole, bad writing, semantics as far as I'm concerned.

Spock views the destruction of Vulcan from Delta Vega. Vulcan is larger in the sky than our own moon. Delta Vega is light years from Vulcan, so Spock being without communication equipment would have no way of knowing that Vulcan is destroyed. He would not know he's emotional compromised and therefore could not advise Kirk to use this to his advantage. (this isn't just bad writing, it's a plot hole). I suppose they could have used the telepathic link that was used in the Immunity Syndrome, but I choose not to give them help.

Maybe, maybe not. First of all, we watch Spock watching the destruction of Vulcan during a narrative sequence, so it could be enhanced to simplify it for the audience. For all we know, Spock did watch it through a telescope, and this device was discarded out of anger or pain of watching it happen, and when we "re-watch" it, the device is omitted for dramatic purposes. It's cheap and forces assumptions to bridge the holes.

Secondly, old Spock "knows" that young Spock will be emotionally compromised because old Spock himself is emotionally compromised -- he even specifically says so. This isn't based on a timeline, this is based on how devastating the emotional impact would be to watching so many people die, regardless of how diluted his Vulcan blood is. Yes, he probably gathered that from the mind-meld, as old Spock would not know that Amanda Grayson had died otherwise.

Nero going after Spock in the more recent time is pointless. He has no specific knowledge that he'll appear anywhere.

I think it's a generally accepted "rule" of temporal anomalies that if their times are different, their spatial locations are the same. In other words, Nero emerges through a temporal vortex at Point A today, and when Spock emerges, it may be 20 years later but it will still be through Point A, not 42 miles away. Again, assumption.

Once Nero does capture Spock he plans to destroy Vulcan, and then the Earth. But now he has the means in his hands to prevent the destruction of his world. He choose to follow his base need for revenge rather than to save his world.

The script told him to be the bad guy and he cannot change. The 20 years of sitting in one spot, reading the same Reader's Digests over and over again, didn't "improve" his disposition from insane badass to pacifist.

Wojo, I've been very consistent in my praise for Star Trek 2009's casting, and acting, except for Simon Pegg who I think is all wrong.

Ok, true, I was just making a joke for Jay's benefit.

I never realized that Paul McGillion had petitioned to play Scotty, but chances are nobody outside of Stargate fandom would know who he is. I think he would have been great.

It's the timeline trying to repair itself.....

Timelines generally don't repair themselves in Star Trek stories, aside from "protecting" the people who will be required to restore the timeline.

The Borg assimilate Earth in the past, but the Enterprise-E is protected, and can restore it, albeit with consequences: many of Cochrane's people at the base die, the Enterprise crew is required to launch the Phoenix, and Borg bodies remain to be discovered in Archer's time.

Edith Keeler survives and Starfleet is never formed, but Kirk, Spock, and McCoy remain in order to set things right.

The Enterprise-C abandons the defense of a Klingon outpost, leading to years of bitter war, and only Guinan....ok, maybe Guinan smelled what was wrong with the timeline. I can't explain that one.

[Jay 46,241]

plot hole, bad writing, semantics as far as I'm concerned.

Oh no, definitely not, those are two different things. I guess that's what's led to my confusion, is that you describe either thing as a plot hole.

Spock views the destruction of Vulcan from Delta Vega. Vulcan is larger in the sky than our own moon. Delta Vega is light years from Vulcan, so Spock being without communication equipment would have no way of knowing that Vulcan is destroyed. He would not know he's emotional compromised and therefore could not advise Kirk to use this to his advantage. (this isn't just bad writing, it's a plot hole). I suppose they could have used the telepathic link that was used in the Immunity Syndrome, but I choose not to give them help.

Nero going after Spock in the more recent time is pointless. He has no specific knowledge that he'll appear anywhere.

Once Nero does capture Spock he plans to destroy Vulcan, and then the Earth. But now he has the means in his hands to prevent the destruction of his world. He choose to follow his base need for revenge rather than to save his world.

Yea, this is just not you liking the writing and narrative devices, these are not plot holes. Now it all makes sense.

I never said Star Trek was an amazing movie, I just think it's a well made, hugely enjoyable summer popcorn movie. I think its very easy to like, but I can see why long time Trek fans don't like it. I'm not a long time Trek fan.

[JoeinAR 1,957]

it doesn't matter if Spock saw it through a telescope, or in a narrative.

It's a PLOT HOLE.

The Vulcan Spock would have viewed through any telescope would be the Vulcan of the past. He would not have seen the destruction because it would take however many light years Delta Vega is from Vulcan to be seen. It's simple science and it's an inconsistency that goes against the flow of logic.

another minor plot hole, Spock is on his way to save Romulus. He knows the speed of his ship, he knows the speed of a potential Super Nova. He knows that interstellar phenomena cannot travel faster than the speed of light, so how did he allow it to beat him to Romulus. simple math for a vulcan and an inconsistency that goes against the flow of logic.

our own sun could have exploded 6 minutes ago and we won't know it for severa

[Wojo 2,458]

Well, distance and time in the Star Trek universe have constantly been collapsed for the sake of moving the story along. Sometimes the distance are great and take all episode, and other times, they take mere minutes.

Now I see your point. Spock would have only watched it with his own eyes or a pocket telescope had he been in the Vulcan system, which Delta Vega is not. And since Nero was not kind enough to provide him a satellite and direct feed to a super-light TV signal, now the only scientific explanation would be that Nero told him he was going to destroy Vulcan, then marooned him, and Spock just accepted it as fact until Kirk confirmed as much via the mind link.

Aaargh. That's terrible. Big gaping plot hole.

Know what? I still like the movie.

Star Trek VI falls apart when the Excelsior had the gas probe mission, and the Enterprise ended up using the technology to defeat Chang -- and nobody ever said ALL ships did the mission and ALL ships had the stuff to upgrade their torpedoes.

Star Trek II falls apart rather early when Khan recognizes Chekhov, who wasn't aboard the ship during Space Seed, but doesn't recognize Terrell, because if both men were in the Starfleet database that Khan perused, he would recognize both men.

Know what? I still like them.

[JoeinAR 1,957]

it's easy to write off the Chekhov bit because he could well have been aboard the Enterprise and not yet promoted to deck officer, it is not a plot hole.

I still like WoK

I like parts of 2009

[Jay 46,241]

Guys, the Delta Vega in the new movie is NOT the same Delta Vega that was on the edge of the galaxy in the tv series. It's a different planet, one that's near Vulcan, that happens to use that planet's name in the new timeline.

Star Trek writers Alex Kurtzman and Roberto Orci, however, have stated that, while the similar name is intentional, the Delta Vega in the episode and the film are not the same planet

[Wojo 2,458]

I am aware of that. Joey is certainly aware of that, having been a Star Trek fan longer then you or I have been alive. He knows.

Though the planet in Star Trek is located in the Vulcan system instead, writers Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman named it after the classic one. Orci has said, "We moved the planet to suit our purposes. The familiarity of the name seemed more important as an Easter egg than a new name [would have been]." [1]

According to Orci, the part of the mind meld sequence in which Ambassador Spock sees the destruction of Vulcan was meant to be "impressionistic for a general audience." He thought of Delta Vega as being in an orbit close to Vulcan's, and that the original idea – having Spock view the planet's destruction through a telescope or some other device – "[wasn't] very cinematic." [2]

So if Joey's misconfusion stems from believing that Kirk was marooned on THAT Delta Vega, then it's not a plot hole. The idea, apparently, is that if Venus were to explode, we would be able to see it from Earth under the right conditions. In this case, Delta Vega (mirror) and Vulcan are much closer together than even Earth and Venus so that Vulcan would be much bigger than just a bright speck. That's not totally inconceivable, with Vulcan being a bit closer to its sun than Earth to make it hot, and Delta Vega (mirror) being further out to make it Hoth-like.

I would argue that the Enterprise spent a long time between the death of Vulcan and the marooning of Kirk, but that time is relative. We don't know how fast they were going or what course they took. They could have crossed the Vulcan system in that time or doubled back.

And if you can quote without giving a source, so can I. Mine is from the Delta Vega (mirror) article at Memory Alpha.

[Brónach 1,330]

So if Joey's misconfusion stems from believing that Kirk was marooned on THAT Delta Vega, then it's not a plot hole. The idea, apparently, is that if Venus were to explode, we would be able to see it from Earth under the right conditions. In this case, Delta Vega (mirror) and Vulcan are much closer together than even Earth and Venus so that Vulcan would be much bigger than just a bright speck. That's not totally inconceivable, with Vulcan being a bit closer to its sun than Earth to make it hot, and Delta Vega (mirror) being further out to make it Hoth-like.

There are solar systems were you would indeed be able to see inner planets transiting in front of the disc of the star in the sky.

[JoeinAR 1,957]

even if delta vega is one light year away it would take a year before it would be viewed by a telescope. it's so close it has to be a moon. probably less than 100 thousand miles away.

[Wojo 2,458]

Not a moon. (or a space station) And one light year is far longer than the diameter of any solar system.

A moon would mean that Delta Vega goes around Vulcan or Vulcan goes around Delta Vega. Neither is the case.

These planets are meant to have orbits close enough to each other that Vulcan could be seen from DV, but each still would have to orbit the Vulcan sun. Not each other.

This situation was probably dreamed up in two minutes to say -- wouldn't it be cool and emotional if Spock watched Vulcan implode, making him feel very sad but also letting him know that his contemporary would feel the same way? Yes, let's put it into the movie, it'll speed up the plot.

This was never meant to be analyzed closely under the special microscope that is meant to separate the good sci-fi from the bad sci-fi. After all, our own moon is 1/4 the diameter of the Earth and 1/81 the mass, and is an average of 238,857 miles from the Earth in an elliptical orbit. This orbiting body has a great effect on the tides, animal and plant behavior, and the nighttime sky. If two large PLANETS were only 100,000 miles from each other, they would a) appear much larger in each other's skies -- much larger than when we saw Spock watch Vulcan collapse -- and b) cause unimaginable damage to either planet. Sure, one planet is all desert and the other is all ice, so you can't say diddly about the effect on their oceans, but still. They would never have been together and stable long enough for life to evolve on either planet, remain habitable, and not fall into each other and form a single planet. (Yes, I know Charon is much closer in size WRT Pluto so that their barycenter lies outside of Pluto, but...Pluto's not a planet anymore. Nyah.)

This is science fiction, after all, the same science fiction that has warp drive, beaming, shields, and universal translators in the first place, and they're not always consistent. Case in point -- beer water pipes in an engineering deck. (I know, not a plot hole, just bad design). Furthermore, by the time Spock Prime beams Scotty and Kirk to the Enterprise, the ship should be too far away for anyone to beam to. Otherwise, if transporters worked that far, Starfleet wouldn't have ships. Just super-duper transporters.

[Jay 46,241]

Furthermore, by the time Spock Prime beams Scotty and Kirk to the Enterprise, the ship should be too far away for anyone to beam to. Otherwise, if transporters worked that far, Starfleet wouldn't have ships. Just super-duper transporters.

Oooh, that's a great one I forgot about that. That's rather silly, isn't it.

[JoeinAR 1,957]

Urban dreddfully punished for his little blip the other day.

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/56985

[Jay 46,241]

Well I suppose that settles it then

[JoeinAR 1,957]

if really true, I like this better than Khan, how bout you?

[Jay 46,241]

Anything's better than Khan

[JoeinAR 1,957]

there was little room for reinterpment of Khan, he's too well established, but Mitchell is a completely different story.

[Wojo 2,458]

Cumberbatch strikes me as too "cerebral" a choice to play the genetically enhanced superman of Khan. All the promotional shots showed Cumberbatch conservatively dressed in a Starfleet or similar uniform, fully clothed, not with muscles exposed like Khan wore in Star Trek II. He's good to play a quick-witted Sherlock Holmes but not the action star that Khan would be used as.

Sure, I realize that Khan wore some modest apparel in Space Seed, but he also wore shirts open to or below his pecs, to show off his physique and woo the ladies (and probably contrast against the Captain).

Abrams and friends should not have planned to "reinvent" Khan as a non-superman, since Khan on ice would be protected from the change to the timeline. For all intents and purposes, in Chris Pine's Star Trek, that is still Ricardo Montalban in the Botany Bay. LEAVE HIM THERE!!!

Plus, Khan's story is out of touch with the 21st century in which we live. Face it, Khan rises to power by conquering 1/3 of the Earth during the Eugenics Wars of the 1990s. In the 60s, a dystopia set in the near future was a common and romantic theme in science-fiction. By 1982, it was a lot closer to becoming (i.e. not becoming) a reality, and fortunately Star Trek II focused on Khan's madness he "earned" on Ceti Alpha V, not his empire on Earth. Now that 2013 is on its way, I don't want to see a new futuristic movie that emphasizes events in a past that never happened. I would just as rather accept that a few Star Trek stories -- Space Seed, Star Treks II-IV, and all the DS9 and Enterprise episodes that mention Khan and eugenics -- require a fake past, and move on. (Once we reach 2063, the events of Star Trek 8: First Contact will really seem dated and out of place.)

But no matter. Gary Mitchell would provide far more opportunity for Abrams' movie to pave its own way than recycle Khan.

[Jay 46,241]

They refered Khan on episodes of Enterprise? How?

[Wojo 2,458]

They refered Khan on episodes of Enterprise? How?

The three-part episode arc of Borderland, Cold Station 12, and The Augments, which featured Brent Spiner as Dr. Arik Soong, a brilliant geneticist who is trying to perfect genetically enhanced humans. They are called Augments in the storyline, but they are the result of the same 20th century engineering that made Khan.

At one point, one of the augments (Malik) asks Soong if he...[is familiar with Botany Bay, a "pre-warp vessel launched at the end of the Great Wars." Malik goes on to recount how the vessel left with many of "their brethren", including their leader Khan Noonien Singh. Dr. Soong states that Botany Bay is "a myth" and no evidence it ever existed. Malik believes that it does, but his point is that Kahn made the fatal mistake of running from his enemies rather than facing them. Malik does not want to make that same "mistake" but instead wants face Star Fleet rather than constantly running and hiding. Soong ends the argument by stating that "the matter is not open to debate."]

The part I boldfaced is interesting. That could explain why so many of the 20th and 21st century achievements are unknown by Starfleet officers like Kirk and Picard on the show -- Voyager 6 anyone? It shows evidence of either a cover-up or a total loss of records by that time, which coupled with Starfleet's naive philosophy of "trust everyone, ask questions first, shoot later" makes for compelling drama when they keep opening bottles hoping to find genies, but just release demons. Space Seed is one. Maybe they also did that to explain why Archer, with his advanced Enterprise ship, was never tasked with hunting down and shooting Khan, which would also screw up the timeline.

Oh, and then Dr. Soong gives up on genetic engineering and turns to cybernetic lifeforms. The rest, as they say, is elementary, my dear Data.

[Jay 46,241]

Ohh yea, I remember now

[Trent B 354]

I could never really get into Enterprise when it originally aired. However a few years after it did I watched it from the pilot to the series finale. Honestly it was pretty good, despite the over used time traveling crap. Season 4 was clearly the best season but it arrived a little too late. Season 4 definitely did a lot of tie into the Original Series, which was great.

[stewdog1 50]

Getting back onto the topic of this thread, has there been any talk about a Trek 12 trailer anytime soon? I believe it comes out before The Man of Steel and we know that is getting a trailer before Batman.

I figure it would be no later than the new Bond film, but one would think with Comic Con going on we might see something.

[Wojo 2,458]

I read that it is supposed to debut by the end of Comic-Con.

[JoeinAR 1,957]

So now we can speculate will Carol Marcus be in this film?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,385]

Yes we can.

[Rachael Foley 10,162]

He choose to follow his base need for revenge rather than to save his world.

Had he succeeded, he could've still saved his world...

[Wojo 2,458]

How? Nero died at the end of the movie, and all the red matter -- which could have been used to destroy the star now that goes supernova or simply keep in storage for a hundred years or so -- was destroyed in the singularity that destroyed his ship, the Narada.

If we are to believe that Nero, while waiting for Spock to arrive, has already taken the Narada to Romulus and already taken care of the star that will go bad, and then returned to receive Spock, well....A) if they didn't show or mention it, it didn't happen (sorry Klingon prison) and B) Nero wasn't that smart or foresighted.